Bunbury "MagLev" Train

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ok, so I checked the Maldon-Dombarton costings to finish the project that was started then abandoned in 1988.

The recent preliminary costings to complete this 35km line is about $750m(?) Yes much of the earth works is complete but still need to finish tunnel and two large bridges, one not even stated. However the O/H costs are quoted at around $140m for 35km of 1500VDC. That's $4m/km. Without O/H the project completion cost is ~$530m.

There have already been questions raised over this cost in the NSW section.

So before claiming the O/H costs are $2.5 to $4m/km. The new southern line in WA was built only a few years back for about $1.2B? and that's for 80km of dual bi-di trackage, tunnels, bridges and stations and I assume extra trains. So that's $15m/km. At $2.5m/linear track km that's $375m for the O/H. I'm still just not convinced that the O/H costs 1/4 of the greenfield costs.

Regards
Shane

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  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
i may be a bit naive about this. but why have a very fast train service to bunbury when the current australind service seems quite adequate. i have travelled on it quite a few times and found it quite enjoyable, maybe they could change the timetable a little bit to improve the service. but is a new train justified for this service when the the current train does the journey in about 2.5 to 3 hours and you can drive to bunbury on the forrest highway in about 2 hours or less? i have always thought that high speed trains would be more of more value over longer distances, say for example to kalgoorlie, geraldton or albany etc. i know there would have to be improvements to the track etc for this to happen. i think i also know that i will see pigs flying before we see passenger trains running again to albany and geraldton, but we are allowed to live in hope.
cheers,
wal.
"wn514"


Australind adequate?  over 2 1/2 hrs from Bunbury to Perth isnt adequate.  A fast train to Bunbury (160km/h plus) will do the trip in 1 1/2 hrs or so, which is easy commuting distance.  People could very easily live in Bunbury and work in Perth then.  (I live in Wyong, and commute to Sydney CBD for work.)
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


Australind adequate?  over 2 1/2 hrs from Bunbury to Perth isnt adequate.  A fast train to Bunbury (160km/h plus) will do the trip in 1 1/2 hrs or so, which is easy commuting distance.  People could very easily live in Bunbury and work in Perth then.  (I live in Wyong, and commute to Sydney CBD for work.)
"topher1976"


I used to go from Saratoga (Gosford) to Top Ryde (2hr + on 100% PT). Question I have is, does the much smaller Perth need to have a most costly commuter service from Bunbury or is a regional service fine? Average speed from Wyong to CBD would be around 60-80km/hr.

Regards
Shane
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Is Mandurah Station designed as a dead end terminal ?

Can the Southern Suburbs line be extended South to Bunbury via Mandurah Station and the Perth - Bunbury Highway.

I have seen plans for a Lakelands - Pinjarra rail link, but that would skip/bypass Mandurah unless trains reversed at Mandurah Station.

It would be poor design If Mandurah was the end of the line, as the station Is not In central Mandurah.

The Northern Suburbs Line seams to have nothing stopping It reach the likes of Geraldton one day  WinkQuestion
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Is Mandurah Station designed as a dead end terminal ?

Can the Southern Suburbs line be extended South to Bunbury via Mandurah Station and the Perth - Bunbury Highway.

I have seen plans for a Lakelands - Pinjarra rail link, but that would skip/bypass Mandurah unless trains reversed at Mandurah Station.

It would be poor design If Mandurah was the end of the line, as the station Is not In central Mandurah.

The Northern Suburbs Line seams to have nothing stopping It reach the likes of Geraldton one day  WinkQuestion
"Nightfire"


Hi,
What I had read was that any plan to use the Mandurah line would not involve extending from Mandurah station, but rather a branch off prior. Looking at the map, it would seem running from Mandurah would be more costly pushing the line through suburbia.

Point of interest, existing Australing from Pinjarra to Perth 1:18min
Mandurah trains, 50min. Difference being 28min and noting as crow flys 16km further away. At 120km/hr average, thats 8min. So the difference is 28-8=20min.

These have 9 intermediate stations to stop at, so say 1min lost for each one. 9min. Assume Australind will use 2 of these stations, 7min.

So add that 7min to our 20min and the time saving via Mandurah line is about 27min (2:30hr down to 2:03min) to Bunbury without touching the line south of Pinjarra.

This assumes the trains are capable of 130km/hr running to keep up with B-sets. But as it doesn't stop all stations it could run the line without impacting sparks if capable of 110+. If it was limited to 110 then travel time might be about 2:05-10hr. For 186km, thats still not bad compared to Gympie service in Qld, 160km, ~3hr. Syd-Newcastle or Syd-Lithgow similar length and times as Gympie service.

Anyway, it would be a nice short-term improvement before further work and new rollingstock was required.

Regards
Shane
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
One cut back option could be that a new track Is built from Pinjarra to Mandurah Station and the DMU to and from Bunbury would terminate at Mandurah and connect with an electric train service.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
One cut back option could be that a new track Is built from Pinjarra to Mandurah Station and the DMU to and from Bunbury would terminate at Mandurah and connect with an electric train service.
"Nightfire"


A good idea, you could increase from 2 returns a day to 4 easily. Maybe have 1 return through to Perth. One question, how would the cattle feel about changing trains?

Regards
shane
  Southwest Locomotive Fireman

I don't think making people change trains in Mandurah would be an attractive option for most people... I know I wouldn't. It should be direct, I don't know how you would provide a service for larger towns like Harvey and Brunswick but the population is closer to the coast now (Australind, Eaton etc) so having the new route past there would make sense.
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

Well with the reshuffle of the Barnett cabinet which sees former cabinet minister for transport simple Simon replaced with Troy the sniffer Buswell. South West MLC Adele Farina says in todays South West Times

"Perhaps now that we have a South West member as Minister for transport this important project, which is critical to the future economic growth of Bunbury and the region,may get the attention and committment  it deserves"
  Jarroo Chief Commissioner

I was hoping this thread had died.....
  wn514 Chief Commissioner

Location: at a skyhooks concert living in the 70's
I was hoping this thread had died.....
"Jarroo"
hear hear
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

Luv ya guys. You have inspired me greatly  to post further reports as they come to hand on the proposed high speed rail service to Bunbury and perhaps beyond
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

Well i dont know if it will be a Maglev train but the pollies and press down this way are barking @ Buswell for a 160kmh rail link from Perth to Bunbury

I will keep you informed of any releases  LOL
  Jarroo Chief Commissioner

Here was a release in 1934....
"On 30 November 1934, running a passenger train, 4472 became the first steam locomotive to be officially recorded at 100 mph (160.9 km/h)"

Steam hauled passenger trains were doing this speed in our Mother Country in 1934, and diesel hauled passenger trains using Deltics ran from 1961 to 1981 doing 100mph day in day out, and HST's running at 125mph are still in service after 34 years.

And meanwhile in Western Australia in 2010/2011 the closest we get to 100mph trains is a statement:

"the pollies and press down this way are barking @ Buswell for a 160kmh rail link from Perth to Bunbury"
With a new hospital currently being built and a new stadium in the queue, I think a 160km/h train is donkey's years away.

My apologies for bring this thread to the top again....
  Mouse Chief Train Controller

Location:
And meanwhile in Western Australia in 2010/2011 the closest we get to 100mph trains is a statement:


Not quite. We've had 160kph trains for the past five or so years on the Prospector. (Actually, they can do 200 if the track was better, and I'm sure I've seen the "in-flight map" show speeds of 170+ on some stretches of track.
  Jarroo Chief Commissioner

And meanwhile in Western Australia in 2010/2011 the closest we get to 100mph trains is a statement:


Not quite. We've had 160kph trains for the past five or so years on the Prospector. (Actually, they can do 200 if the track was better, and I'm sure I've seen the "in-flight map" show speeds of 170+ on some stretches of track.
"Mouse"


How many hours of the 6.5 hour trip is the train doing 160km/h?
I have travelled on the Prospector quite a few times and I don't think it has ever got to 160km/h in service.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A maglev is novel, but the cost is still unrealistic for the market if the Shanghi one is anything to go by. You might be able to keep the cost down by building only a single track with 1 or 2 station passing loops. But I still feel the market size is just too low.

While the poms were running 160 50+ years ago, it wasn't on skinny tracks and a low population market.

A likely outcome is an extension of the current southern line south as mostly a single track. The only question is to spark or not to spark the route? If the Australind rollingstock is facing retirement, then sparking would make an obvious choice and the existing rollingstock can be used, even if they are not 160 capable. This would keep longterm operating costs down. This distance and time travelled is not dissimilar to that used by equivalent trains in Qld. Alternatively a specialist set such as RTT could be purchased instead but would have limited to zero redundent rolling stock apart from the B sets. Again not much different to the way Qld RTT operates.

Until not that long ago it wasn't unusal for a Gold Coast train to be subsituted with an older EMU limited to 100km/hr, the late running was less than 10min at Robina with less than 45km of >100km/hr track.

As the southern line is a high frequency service, 160 capable is of limited value as you can only go as fast the train in front. The alt being a passing lane at some stratigic location to enable the Bunbury train to pass the "local", but the time savings of this cost is probably about 5-10min.

Regards
Shane
  1213Driver Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth Western Australia
The only question is to spark or not to spark the route? If the Australind rollingstock is facing retirement, then sparking would make an obvious choice and the existing rollingstock can be used, even if they are not 160 capable.
"RTT_Rules"


From what I have heard the powers that be intend to try and keep the Australind set running for another 20 years !

That of course means very little intention to do other.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The only question is to spark or not to spark the route? If the Australind rollingstock is facing retirement, then sparking would make an obvious choice and the existing rollingstock can be used, even if they are not 160 capable.
"RTT_Rules"


From what I have heard the powers that be intend to try and keep the Australind set running for another 20 years !

That of course means very little intention to do other.
"1213Driver"


Interesting, but doesn't stop the new track being laid. This is the cheapest option.

Regards
Shane
  WAGR Chief Commissioner

The only question is to spark or not to spark the route? If the Australind rollingstock is facing retirement, then sparking would make an obvious choice and the existing rollingstock can be used, even if they are not 160 capable.
"RTT_Rules"


From what I have heard the powers that be intend to try and keep the Australind set running for another 20 years !

That of course means very little intention to do other.
"1213Driver"


Hmm i must past those comments onto Nola and Adele who being pollies are most keen along with others to get a high speed train service to Bunbury
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The only question is to spark or not to spark the route? If the Australind rollingstock is facing retirement, then sparking would make an obvious choice and the existing rollingstock can be used, even if they are not 160 capable.
"RTT_Rules"


From what I have heard the powers that be intend to try and keep the Australind set running for another 20 years !

That of course means very little intention to do other.
"1213Driver"


Hmm i must past those comments onto Nola and Adele who being pollies are most keen along with others to get a high speed train service to Bunbury
"WAGR"


If they extend the line south on a +160 alignment, the Australind will do a nice job and probably do the run in about 90-120min or so. As the DMU's will lag the B sets in top end speed the trains will probably just keep up with express running, so no costly track work.

heading south of Mandurah, the slower top end speed will cost 10-15min. So a train capable of running 160 might do the run with a 20-25min or so time saving. But compared to now the Australind DMU might cut off about 30-45min off the current 2.5hr, say 2hr. A 160 capable train say 90min.

With a 2hr run time and allowing an average 30min turn around, the current Australind set could improve on the current 2 runs/day to 3. Or alternatively 2 runs to Perth and 2 shuttles to Mandurah or similar.

The above would provide an economic step change to test and build ridership without commiting to more costly new rollingstock and O/H for less than idle ridership for 5-10 years and also maximise the economic use of the DMU's.

The pollies also don't loose face as they can be seen to have improved the Bunbury rail service.

Regards
Shane
  dw54 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Devonport, Tas
The only question is to spark or not to spark the route? If the Australind rollingstock is facing retirement, then sparking would make an obvious choice and the existing rollingstock can be used, even if they are not 160 capable.
"RTT_Rules"


From what I have heard the powers that be intend to try and keep the Australind set running for another 20 years !

That of course means very little intention to do other.
"1213Driver"


Hmm i must past those comments onto Nola and Adele who being pollies are most keen along with others to get a high speed train service to Bunbury
"WAGR"


If they extend the line south on a +160 alignment, the Australind will do a nice job and probably do the run in about 90-120min or so. As the DMU's will lag the B sets in top end speed the trains will probably just keep up with express running, so no costly track work.

heading south of Mandurah, the slower top end speed will cost 10-15min. So a train capable of running 160 might do the run with a 20-25min or so time saving. But compared to now the Australind DMU might cut off about 30-45min off the current 2.5hr, say 2hr. A 160 capable train say 90min.

With a 2hr run time and allowing an average 30min turn around, the current Australind set could improve on the current 2 runs/day to 3. Or alternatively 2 runs to Perth and 2 shuttles to Mandurah or similar.

The above would provide an economic step change to test and build ridership without commiting to more costly new rollingstock and O/H for less than idle ridership for 5-10 years and also maximise the economic use of the DMU's.

The pollies also don't loose face as they can be seen to have improved the Bunbury rail service.

Regards
Shane
"RTT_Rules"


And Stage 1 of the business case will be the volume of traffic on buses running SW->Bunbury->Mandurah, and more particularly, express Bunbury  Mandurah.

DW in Devonport
  ChrisDPom Locomotive Fireman

Location: Bali, Europe, Perth (repeat)
And Stage 1 of the business case will be the volume of traffic on buses running SW->Bunbury->Mandurah, and more particularly, express Bunbury  Mandurah.

DW in Devonport
"dw54"


Which is basically bugger all.

I stay at the Rose Hotel in Bunbury when working down there. It is just opposite the bus station.

The timetable is 2 buses a day Bunbury to Mandurah (same back) taking 100 mins each way.

Similar is the Bunbury to East Perth bus (only option instead of the 2 daily Australind). Takes 185 mins and again runs 2 times a day.

I have seen these buses arrive and depart. If there is more than 15 people waiting for any of them or getting off them I would be surprised (and most seem to have mullets!! Shocked ).

Add the 50 odd on each Australind and you are looking at max 300 people a day and even that seems high.

Spend say $200m to supersize the line (or more to build a new one from Mandurah) and amortize over 20 years.

That is $91.26 for each journey just to meet the initial costs at 300 per day.

Add $5m a year for maintenance, running costs, etc on the line, the staff, the stock. Cost per journey is $136.89.

Troy B can probably do the numbers (philandering treasurer syndrome and all).

NB: I used 365.25 days to take in the leap years to be generous 8)

Current price for each trip Bunbury to Perth or back is $28.25 (no discount for return booking Rolling Eyes ).

To get the cost down to $28.25 per journey you would need just over 1,450 passenger journeys per day.

I don't think we have that many mullets living in the SW.
  andrew1996 Train Controller

Location: Fremantle
And Stage 1 of the business case will be the volume of traffic on buses running SW->Bunbury->Mandurah, and more particularly, express Bunbury  Mandurah.

DW in Devonport
"dw54"


Which is basically bugger all.

I stay at the Rose Hotel in Bunbury when working down there. It is just opposite the bus station.

The timetable is 2 buses a day Bunbury to Mandurah (same back) taking 100 mins each way.

Similar is the Bunbury to East Perth bus (only option instead of the 2 daily Australind). Takes 185 mins and again runs 2 times a day.

I have seen these buses arrive and depart. If there is more than 15 people waiting for any of them or getting off them I would be surprised (and most seem to have mullets!! Shocked ).

Add the 50 odd on each Australind and you are looking at max 300 people a day and even that seems high.

Spend say $200m to supersize the line (or more to build a new one from Mandurah) and amortize over 20 years.

That is $91.26 for each journey just to meet the initial costs at 300 per day.

Add $5m a year for maintenance, running costs, etc on the line, the staff, the stock. Cost per journey is $136.89.

Troy B can probably do the numbers (philandering treasurer syndrome and all).

NB: I used 365.25 days to take in the leap years to be generous 8)

Current price for each trip Bunbury to Perth or back is $28.25 (no discount for return booking Rolling Eyes ).

To get the cost down to $28.25 per journey you would need just over 1,450 passenger journeys per day.

I don't think we have that many mullets living in the SW.
"ChrisDPom"


But what about the people who do not catch the train/bus because the timetable is not right for them, if the train was more frequent, there would be a lot more passengers.
  ChrisDPom Locomotive Fireman

Location: Bali, Europe, Perth (repeat)
They mainly drive 8)

Cars are a way of life in the country. It is bad enough being unable to drive in the city, it is a nightmare in the country.

Most people who take the Australind and bus do so for social occassions - if you are heading to Bunbury for work, you need a cra and vice versa when people come up north.

We do not have the population size or density to make this viable yet.

I reckon you will be 50 by the time we do Andrew (and I will be almost 85!!).

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