NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

 
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
What exactly is the conflicting movement at Homebush, by the way?
"Watson374"

Outbound Blue Mountains conflicts with inbound from Parramatta to North Shore.

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  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
That wouldn't make sense.  Forcing people to interchange at Harris Park or Parramatta onto Western Line trains but also acknowledging the need to increase Western Line capacity by having trains running between Parramatta 3 & 4 through Granville 3 &4 - why not just have the South Line passengers go direct.  There are enough of them to justify it.
"simonl"


well the problem with the south line at granville is that it really isn't south there. in fact that is pretty much the western line. all granville line services from merrylands should have a new platform at granville that allows termination and turnbacks or at clyde.

the south line should really either be the current east hills or liverpool via bankstown line.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Call it the Fairfield line if that works better for you, but don't terminate the trains without going to the city.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Call it the Fairfield line if that works better for you, but don't terminate the trains without going to the city.
"simonl"


I would question which is better: connecting to an express to rocket them into the city, or having a direct train that runs on the slower tracks?
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
The latter.  Clearly!  By the time you go all the way into Parramatta and then back out on an express you would save a couple of minutes, tops.  This completely ignores interchange time, increased dwell times at Parramatta and the fact that people do not like interchange.
  bernerd Junior Train Controller

I would rather the former, personally, but then I do things with my life, so time is the most important thing to me.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Strange comment.  It would take longer to reach the CBD on that scenario.
  Rails Chief Commissioner

Isn't this all a moot point, don't you need to have those South line trains to feed the Airport/ East Hills/ Bankstown/ SWRL lines anyway? So you can't terminate them? Obviously these can come from either the Suburban or local tracks but obviously the best option is to try and max out both the line with trains rather then just run the locals with Inner west line trains. Not sure if this is right but I was told that the Homebush turnback can turn around 8-10 DD trains max. As I stated before I would imagine you could just add the South line to the inner west line leaving the suburban line for the Western line, its what 5 inner west stations skipped on the south line? So 22 stops from Liverpool, that is the same as from Berowra and that line doesnt have many skip stop trains via the North Shore line and most likely soon have none. I would imagine there is also nothing stopping a passenger on the Soutern line transfering to a Western line express train at Lidcombe, Auburn or Strathfield (assuming the revised Western line trains dont skip all these stations after Parramatta).
  Rails Chief Commissioner



I was wondering about this too, but the answer turns out to be much simpler, and also semi-confirms the Richmond/Schofields -> Campbelltown plan.

Excluding the Northern Line and Richmond line trains (but including Blacktown starters) there are 10 trains arriving in the CBD during the hour of 8am - 9am.

The plans also speak of the implementation of simple stopping patterns and ATP/ATO allowing running at 24tph. It therefore become a simple 24 - 10 = 14.

They wouldn't dare do anything more complicated like sending some trains to the City Circle - it goes against everything else they are planning.

It also shows the level of capacity increase that will happen on the main trunk of the Western Line by the simplification of the stopping pattern is staggering.

I think that another thing this shows is that they have been building the infrastructure to make these kind of changes for years now, and then just not using them for political reasons. Think about the two main projects that make this possible:


  • Cumberland line grade separation

  • Lidcombe turnback



The 1 project that is missing is one that will allow Blue Mountains trains to run through to Sydney Terminal without a conflicting movement - a flyover at Homebush. They may just run mountains trains through to Hornsby - I don't know what else they do to avoid a gap in frequency and a conflicting movement at Homebush.
"grog"


Yeah, I realised when I thought about it that earlier on I had mis-read the flash diagram, it showed the Western line from Richmond and Emu plains running to Hornsby and the City Circle claiming an extra 14 tph. However i realise that is referring to all three Western line corridors (locals, suburban and mains). Obviously we wont be seeing ATO by 2013 so I had a punt in the post above your's at guessing what they might do with the current system. Although I realised that I made an obvious error but not sure if the rest works.

So I downloaded their report and based on that document we know the following:

In the 2013 timetable the busiest of the western lines will run 20 tph without ATO
More focus on express trains on the western line via Parramatta
Better use of the Cumberland line to link up Liverpool/ SW
All three western lines will have an increase of 14 tph post the second harbour crossing
The Lidcombe turnback will open in 2013 and there will be extra Bankstown services in the 2013 timetable
When the Homebush turnback opens (no date provided) there will be extra services on the inner west line
Short term the lower northern line will recieve two extra services and possibly more long term
Short term the Eastern suburbs line will recieve two extra services
South west will recieve extra services in the 2013 timetable
Kingsgrove quad becomes operational but no mention of when, 2016 for the SWRL with extra services
Services from Holsworthy, Glenfield and the SW via the airport to double from 8 to 16 and 20 tph long term
Signaling upgrades and revised tt leading to reduced travel times for the Blue Mountains and South Coast lines

Exactly how it all fits togeather is not 100% clear yet.




  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Isn't this all a moot point, don't you need to have those South line trains to feed the Airport/ East Hills/ Bankstown/ SWRL lines anyway?
"Rails"

No.  You can send the Bankstown trains around the Town Hall leg of the City Circle without conflicting or capacity restricting moves, as presently occurs with some AM peak trains.

Obviously these can come from either the Suburban or local tracks
"Rails"

Coming from the suburbans would require reinstating a now extinct conflicting move at Macdonaldtown, or introducing a capacity restricting move using the flying junctions.  Either is a bad idea.

Short term the lower northern line will recieve two extra services and possibly more long term
"Rails"

I would be very surprised if this is included in the 2013 timetable, even though it is needed, unless perhaps they run to Sydney Terminal and do not divide all the 15 minute gaps.  I don't expect the Western Line via the Locals in 2013 either.

I'm in two minds about whether I'd like to be wrong on the above two sentences.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Short term the lower northern line will recieve two extra services and possibly more long term
"Rails"


I would be very surprised if this is included in the 2013 timetable, even though it is needed, unless perhaps they run to Sydney Terminal and do not divide all the 15 minute gaps.  I don't expect the Western Line via the Locals in 2013 either.

I'm in two minds about whether I'd like to be wrong on the above two sentences.
"simonl"


The lower Northern was identified as a corridor with 'passenger displacement', i.e. one with trains that are too full to take on all passengers attempting to board, so attempting to insert additional services makes sense.
  Z1948 Station Staff

Location: Canberra
Is there somebody out there who has a map or suchlike of the unused underground railway tunnels in Sydney and knows whether they offer any real answer to the problems of the Sydney metropolitan rail system? [I've been told, for example, that the metropolitan system's problems would be solved by another set of tracks around the City Circle, as it has become a network bottleneck. Sounded believable, but is it?]
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
The lower Northern was identified as a corridor with 'passenger displacement', i.e. one with trains that are too full to take on all passengers attempting to board, so attempting to insert additional services makes sense.
"Watson374"

Be that as it may, I don't think it is very achievable at all.

Is there somebody out there who has a map or suchlike of the unused underground railway tunnels in Sydney and knows whether they offer any real answer to the problems of the Sydney metropolitan rail system? [I've been told, for example, that the metropolitan system's problems would be solved by another set of tracks around the City Circle, as it has become a network bottleneck. Sounded believable, but is it?]
"Z1948"

A four track City Circle would be almost impossible!  It's also a bigger increase in capacity than what is needed.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Is there somebody out there who has a map or suchlike of the unused underground railway tunnels in Sydney and knows whether they offer any real answer to the problems of the Sydney metropolitan rail system? [I've been told, for example, that the metropolitan system's problems would be solved by another set of tracks around the City Circle, as it has become a network bottleneck. Sounded believable, but is it?]
"Z1948"


Check out John Oakes' book:
Oakes, J. (2003) Sydney's Forgotten City RailwaysSydney: Australian Railway Historical Society,New South Wales Division. 
You can get it from the ARHS book shop.  In the original plans for the City Railway John Bradfield had a second City Circle type line that ran from Oxford Street through St James and back south/west via Town Hall.  

It is possible to use some of the old infrastructure to good effect.  It has been shown (discussed in other threads) that about 28 tph is feasible from Chatswood to Wynyard by using existing infrastructure with new/modified tracks.  The extra trains would be turned back at Wynyard unless a new station were built to add to capacity near Town Hall.  Also were it possible to increase the number of trains calling at Museum, the bifurcation through Central and the never-used platforms at St James would allow trains to be turned back at St James, as they once were.    

 
 

  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
^ That line used the ESR platforms at Town Hall, so it wouldn't be constructible today, unless some solution to this problem could be found, which is unlikely.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
Is there somebody out there who has a map or suchlike of the unused underground railway tunnels in Sydney and knows whether they offer any real answer to the problems of the Sydney metropolitan rail system? [I've been told, for example, that the metropolitan system's problems would be solved by another set of tracks around the City Circle, as it has become a network bottleneck. Sounded believable, but is it?]
"Z1948"


wikipedia has some very interesting diagrams which may help you

this is bradfields original design
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Bradfield_Scheme_Sydney_CBD_Railways_alt.png

this is the one built. the very light grey shade of colour show the disused tunnels (central 26 and 27 and redfern 13 and 14 are not included
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Sydney_CBD_Railways_built.png

this one is the st james track plan with the original ESR plan in dotted lines
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/St_James_trackplan.png

the second cdb line pages are here
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfern_to_Chatswood_railway_line
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBD_Relief_Line

hopefully this answers your question and apologies for using wikipedia (all i could get in 2 minutes)
  Z1948 Station Staff

Location: Canberra
Thanks Kym for the info about the book.  One article I read about the Sydney system said that the bottleneck in the whole system was the City Circle, which cannot now, or soon will not be able to, handle more trains in peak hour.   Were Bradford's planned extra City Circle line tunnels ever dug?

Can you explain what 28 tph means too please (it's beyond my ken).  Perhaps we could have a Railpage glossary of terms somewhere.

')">Very Happy
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
^ That line used the ESR platforms at Town Hall, so it wouldn't be constructible today, unless some solution to this problem could be found, which is unlikely.
"simonl"


True.  Keep going from the proposed Pitt Street station on that line with a tight curve might do it.  But I'm not sure why you would do it.  I think that the St James tunnels lend themselves to a pre-metro light rail station but that usually brings the light rail should be on street brigade down on me Wink .
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Can you explain what 28 tph means too please (it's beyond my ken).
"Z1948"


Twenty-eight trains per hour.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Thanks Kym for the info about the book.  Were Bradford's planned extra City Circle line tunnels ever dug?
"Z1948"



Not a problem - it is a good read, well illustrated, worth buying. Very Happy .

Some of this infrastructure was built.  Tunnels run from the bridge into two platforms (numbers 1 & 2) at Wynyard, once used for trams and now used as a car park.  The ones at St James ran from nearly the War Memorial  to the Mitchell Library.  Some of the diagams posted by fixitguy show them.   There are also two unused platforms at Central and two half-built at Redfern built as part of the later variant of the Eastern Suburbs Railway (these are not the Bradfield scheme).  At North Sydney the tunnels serving platforms 2 and 3 are only used to turn back just a few trains from the West.  There is also a branch tunnel that was to have gone to the Northern Beaches.  The Eastern side toll area at Milsons Point was built as the station  for the Northern Beaches line but only ever used for trams.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Call it the Fairfield line if that works better for you, but don't terminate the trains without going to the city.
"simonl"


If I had a direct link from liverpool to an express I would rather catch that train.

the services along the "cumberland" line into the city are slow. why not link them to parra or granville and provide access to an express into the city instead of having to run along the inner west line. From liverpool you have essentially 3 ways into the city. running at current patterns they all take about 55 minutes to get into the city. An express can get from penrith into central about the same time but covers twice the distance. So why not hook up with expresses instead from fairfield, guildford and merrylands and run more expresses into the cbd without the interference from the normal via granville service.

In addition complete the sextuplification of sydenham to redfern and run more then a train every 15 minutes on the bankstown line. 4 trains and hour from banktown station, 4 from lidcombe and 4 from liverpool that runs express into the city.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
If I had a direct link from liverpool to an express I would rather catch that train.
"jedimasterc"

Since you are continuing to argue this point, I'm going to post some facts:
Fairfield-Parramatta on the Cumberland line: 18 minutes
Parramatta-Central on the fastest AM peak train: 25 minutes

slowest Fairfield-Central via South Line: 46 minutes, stopping all to Granville, Auburn, Lidcombe, Ashfield, Redfern, Central leaving 7:56am.  So you need to achieve a 1 minute transfer to tie.

This ignores the fact that there is NO ROOM on the Western Line for these pax.

The WEX would have allowed the South Line to run over the Harbour Bridge and not need to use the locals, but you NSWelshmen voted against it!
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
 
The WEX would have allowed the South Line to run over the Harbour Bridge and not need to use the locals, but you NSWelshmen voted against it!
"simonl"



We actually voted against an incompetent and corrupt government.  To the point, the WEX was not planned to connect to Wynyard or the Bridge - I assume you are saying that the South Line would be diverted to the Shore.  That would need it to mix it with the Eppings at least.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Well you're out of the frying pan and into the fire on the transport policy competence front.  Perhaps the Libs are doing better in other areas.

The WEX didn't need to connect to Wynyard or the Bridge.  Through passengers to North Sydney would need to interchange, but welcome to the real world.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Well you're out of the frying pan and into the fire on the transport policy competence front.  Perhaps the Libs are doing better in other areas.

The WEX didn't need to connect to Wynyard or the Bridge.  Through passengers to North Sydney would need to interchange, but welcome to the real world.
"simonl"



You are dead right on the transport policy front.  They seem to have inherited the Metro team.  I think the plan is for every one to change even when they don't have to  Rolling Eyes .

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