NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

 
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Are the Western expresses not crowded enough?
"Watson374"


well doesn't that play nicely with your 10 car k set theory?
"jedimasterc"


Yes, I ran the numbers and it's 12m too long Rolling Eyes
"Watson374"


Too long for what?
"djf01"


The idea I came up with was to run a 2K into Sydney Terminal before peak, then pull off an inbound Western 8K into the same bay platform, and amalgamate. This creates a 10K that can be run out of Sydney Terminal as a Western Express. However, it's 12m longer than an 8V so I'm no longer confident it can fit where it has to.
"Watson374"


Prior to the V sets, they used to regularly run 10 car U boats (same length as the Vs IIRC).  Also, they used to run 10 car V sets on some runs too.  THe main stations (at least) on the west can handle 10 car V sets, as can (at least) platforms 1-10 at Central.  They could handle 12 car suburban sets.

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  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
I expect P'Matta, Blk and Penrith can handle long trains, but what about others?
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Are the Western expresses not crowded enough?
"Watson374"


well doesn't that play nicely with your 10 car k set theory?
"jedimasterc"


Yes, I ran the numbers and it's 12m too long Rolling Eyes
"Watson374"


Too long for what?
"djf01"


The idea I came up with was to run a 2K into Sydney Terminal before peak, then pull off an inbound Western 8K into the same bay platform, and amalgamate. This creates a 10K that can be run out of Sydney Terminal as a Western Express. However, it's 12m longer than an 8V so I'm no longer confident it can fit where it has to.
"Watson374"


Prior to the V sets, they used to regularly run 10 car U boats (same length as the Vs IIRC).  Also, they used to run 10 car V sets on some runs too.  THe main stations (at least) on the west can handle 10 car V sets, as can (at least) platforms 1-10 at Central.  They could handle 12 car suburban sets.
"djf01"


jedimasterc would be delighted. He suggested 12H trains around the time I floated 10K.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Are the Western expresses not crowded enough?
"Watson374"


well doesn't that play nicely with your 10 car k set theory?
"jedimasterc"


Yes, I ran the numbers and it's 12m too long Rolling Eyes
"Watson374"


Too long for what?
"djf01"


The idea I came up with was to run a 2K into Sydney Terminal before peak, then pull off an inbound Western 8K into the same bay platform, and amalgamate. This creates a 10K that can be run out of Sydney Terminal as a Western Express. However, it's 12m longer than an 8V so I'm no longer confident it can fit where it has to.
"Watson374"


Prior to the V sets, they used to regularly run 10 car U boats (same length as the Vs IIRC).  Also, they used to run 10 car V sets on some runs too.  THe main stations (at least) on the west can handle 10 car V sets, as can (at least) platforms 1-10 at Central.  They could handle 12 car suburban sets.
"djf01"


jedimasterc would be delighted. He suggested 12H trains around the time I floated 10K.
"Watson374"


I also suggested that the 12h could split at penrith or combine in morning peak hour.
  unrailed Junior Train Controller

new paper work for the NWRL droped on the site. archived http://northwestrail.com.au/document/index/1#


 
1.2.3 Long Term Transport Master Plan and Sydney’s Rail Future

On 20 June 2012 the NSW Government announced Sydney’s Rail Future. Key elements of the

announcement are provided below.

In line with the approach of focusing specifically on the different needs of customers, Sydney’s Rail

Future will deliver a three-tiered system to respond to changing customer needs.

TIER 1: Rapid Transit:

Frequent ‘turn up and go’ services without the need for consulting a timetable.

Fast single deck trains with plenty of seats and more doors, designed for easy boarding and

alighting.

TIER 2: Suburban:

Timetabled services.

Double deck trains with more seats per train.

TIER 3: Intercity:

Timetabled services.

Double deck trains for Central Coast, Newcastle, Wollongong and Blue Mountains services.

Comfortable services for long distance commuting and leisure travel with on-board facilities for

improved customer convenience.

Under the new three tier system, the NWRL would operate as a Tier 1 rapid transit single deck train

system, initially operating between the North West and Chatswood, with a cross-platform interchange

at Chatswood to suburban services for those customers travelling to the CBD. In line with the NWRL,

an upgrade of the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link to a high capacity rapid transit system would be

required as a separate project to the NWRL.



just have a problem with the reports - they are cutting the project short at Epping. so we are only getting a part project again with the cheap options. any plans we are hoping for have just gone out the window. 

  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
just have a problem with the reports - they are cutting the project short at Epping. so we are only getting a part project again with the cheap options. any plans we are hoping for have just gone out the window.
"unrailed"


Doesn't sound any different to me when I read it - could you delve into the details of being cut back to Epping?
  unrailed Junior Train Controller

just have a problem with the reports - they are cutting the project short at Epping. so we are only getting a part project again with the cheap options. any plans we are hoping for have just gone out the window.
"unrailed"


Doesn't sound any different to me when I read it - could you delve into the details of being cut back to Epping?
"Watson374"


read the last two lines of the posted quote.  ( any way just found the docs ).

edit - found some tec bits in just scanning a few sections ( power for the sd trains). but i will let you guys post the details. 
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


Under the new three tier system, the NWRL would operate as a Tier 1 rapid transit single deck train

system, initially operating between the North West and Chatswood, with a cross-platform interchange

at Chatswood to suburban services for those customers travelling to the CBD. In line with the NWRL,

an upgrade of the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link to a high capacity rapid transit system would be

required as a separate project to the NWRL.
just have a problem with the reports - they are cutting the project short at Epping. so we are only getting a part project again with the cheap options. any plans we are hoping for have just gone out the window.
"unrailed"


Doesn't sound any different to me when I read it - could you delve into the details of being cut back to Epping?
"Watson374"


read the last two lines of the posted quote.  ( any way just found the docs ). 
"unrailed"


It probably just means the conversion of the ECL will need it's own EIS and other approvals process.  I can't see how the NWRL could possibly work if the format is incompatible *and* they don't convert the ECL.  I suppose they could terminate ECL trains on the UP road at Epping, and the NWRL trains on the down road.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Conversion of the ECRL to single deck was always part of the project.  Nothing has changed.
  grog Train Controller

Page 2-4 (in the chapter 'Clarifications'):

In line with the NWRL, an upgrade of the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link to a high capacity rapid transit system would be required as a separate project to the NWRL.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Conversion of the ECRL to single deck was always part of the project.  Nothing has changed.
"simonl"


Sorry to nit pick, but part of the same plan, not part of the project. 

The EIS for the NWRL doesn't cover the extra works required for the ECL conversion.  Exactly what is involved won't be known until we see the specs for the NWRL construction tenders, which will presumably detail the loading gauge, floor height and electrical standards of the new system.

Operating the ECL and NWRL will probably be a seperate tender and unrelated to the construction projects.  That tender will probably be contingent on both projects being completed. 

I expect the "conversion" will be the change the electrical system (though they might leave that at 1500v DC for a line as short as the NWRL) and the installation of platforms screens.  If there are different platform heights and widths as well, the transitional arrangements will be "interesting".
  unrailed Junior Train Controller


  Exactly what is involved won't be known until we see the specs for the NWRL construction tenders, which will presumably detail the loading gauge, floor height and electrical standards of the new system.

Operating the ECL and NWRL will probably be a seperate tender and unrelated to the construction projects.  That tender will probably be contingent on both projects being completed. 

I expect the "conversion" will be the change the electrical system (though they might leave that at 1500v DC for a line as short as the NWRL) and the installation of platforms screens.  If there are different platform heights and widths as well, the transitional arrangements will be "interesting".
"djf01"

the State Significant Infrastructure Application Report ( final) has some of the details and it's going to be 1500v DC with bi-directional signaling system etc.

  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
One of these documents mentions that the NWRL was justified, as compared to other options, in EIS 1 chapter 22.  A pretty oblique reference without a link, but does anyone know where to obtain that document?
  unrailed Junior Train Controller

One of these documents mentions that the NWRL was justified, as compared to other options, in EIS 1 chapter 22.  A pretty oblique reference without a link, but does anyone know where to obtain that document?
"simonl"


see - State Significant Infrastructure Application Report.    
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
just for the sake of it. I will ask if anybody knows if it is possible to expand town hall and wynyard to say a 10 car platform?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

just for the sake of it. I will ask if anybody knows if it is possible to expand town hall and wynyard to say a 10 car platform?
"jedimasterc"


As most of you know, this is my pet hobby horse.  So just for the sake of it: yes, of course it is.  It's just a question of money.

To take the question more seriously, it's a question of widening the tunnel bore by 2 to 3 metres, then relining.  Presumably in stages (so it can be done overnight.  Needs to be done for 20m of length in 8 locations.  You're looking at excavating about 1/2 the material of the equivalent tunnel bore, with the complication of avoiding disrupting an existing rail line.  So it's about the equivalent of boring 160m of new tunnel, and laying 2 new platforms.

The next issue is commissioning rolling stock to allow the fleet to operate 10 car trains.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
just for the sake of it. I will ask if anybody knows if it is possible to expand town hall and wynyard to say a 10 car platform?
"jedimasterc"


As most of you know, this is my pet hobby horse.  So just for the sake of it: yes, of course it is.  It's just a question of money.

To take the question more seriously, it's a question of widening the tunnel bore by 2 to 3 metres, then relining.  Presumably in stages (so it can be done overnight.  Needs to be done for 20m of length in 8 locations.  You're looking at excavating about 1/2 the material of the equivalent tunnel bore, with the complication of avoiding disrupting an existing rail line.  So it's about the equivalent of boring 160m of new tunnel, and laying 2 new platforms.

The next issue is commissioning rolling stock to allow the fleet to operate 10 car trains.
"djf01"


Wynyard will require realignment of the line; Town Hall is still somewhat possible but will result in sloped, sharply-curving platforms - realignment is desirable. Much of the cost will be the realignment.

As for stock, would some six-car units in a D-N-N-T-N-D consist be workable?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner



As for stock, would some six-car units in a D-N-N-T-N-D consist be workable?
"Watson374"


Of course it would.  It's just none of our stock non driving trailers.

Not quite true, the A sets do, and for a time I thought it would be possible to configure the 10 car A sets.  But it can't be done as (AFAIK) the mating of the T-T is different to the T-M or the M-M.  The A set non driving trailers are not symmetrical.  The trailers are essentially driving trailers with the cabs replaced with more passenger space.

If I were running RailCorp, this is most definitely the direction I'd be heading.  And to implement this I'd be commissioning a fleet of M-T pairs where the trailer is built into the form factor of M unit for both the H Set and A Set fleet.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
just for the sake of it. I will ask if anybody knows if it is possible to expand town hall and wynyard to say a 10 car platform?
"jedimasterc"


As most of you know, this is my pet hobby horse.  So just for the sake of it: yes, of course it is.  It's just a question of money.

To take the question more seriously, it's a question of widening the tunnel bore by 2 to 3 metres, then relining.  Presumably in stages (so it can be done overnight.  Needs to be done for 20m of length in 8 locations.  You're looking at excavating about 1/2 the material of the equivalent tunnel bore, with the complication of avoiding disrupting an existing rail line.  So it's about the equivalent of boring 160m of new tunnel, and laying 2 new platforms.

The next issue is commissioning rolling stock to allow the fleet to operate 10 car trains.
"djf01"


I think I'll stick to a new cbd relief with new 12 car stations at central, city west and maybe wynyard underneath the current harbour bridge line in alignment. thanks djf.

oh and by the way watson mentioned that you have an articulated design for a DD stock with shorter carriages. Do you have a design of this vehicle that I might be able to look at?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


I think I'll stick to a new cbd relief with new 12 car stations at central, city west and maybe wynyard underneath the current harbour bridge line in alignment. thanks djf.

oh and by the way watson mentioned that you have an articulated design for a DD stock with shorter carriages. Do you have a design of this vehicle that I might be able to look at?
"jedimasterc"


Just a few hacks done using that wonderful piece of engineering CAD software: photoshop:






3 Vehicle type: a motor unit, a trailer unit, and a trailer with cab.  2 versions presented here: one with 8 rows per deck (same ratio of seat rows to doors as the Paris R1N1) and a 6 row version (same number of rows as the RER design).
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
my eyesight isn't that good. do you have something a little larger.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

my eyesight isn't that good. do you have something a little larger.
"jedimasterc"


Maybe you need a bigger monitor Smile.
  abesty1 Chief Commissioner
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
my eyesight isn't that good. do you have something a little larger.
"jedimasterc"


Maybe you need a bigger monitor Smile.
"djf01"


you think I need something larger then a 27" 3d screen do you.

When I viewed them before they were small and there was no link to click on them to make them bigger. That seems to have changed since.

how many people can they carry?
what are the carriage lengths?


  djf01 Chief Commissioner

my eyesight isn't that good. do you have something a little larger.
"jedimasterc"


Maybe you need a bigger monitor Smile.
"djf01"


you think I need something larger then a 27" 3d screen do you.

When I viewed them before they were small and there was no link to click on them to make them bigger. That seems to have changed since.

how many people can they carry?
what are the carriage lengths?
"jedimasterc"




I've got a spreadsheet comparing a whole lot of different design options. 

A-SD is a 3 door single deck version of the A sets.

A few things should be noted about this table.  
- "Comfort" levels of standing loadings (1 PAX/m^2) are regarded as maximum capacity here in Australia (and probably rightly so).
- At 24tph vs 30 for the others, the A sets have just as much capacity as any other design, just with more seats.
- All trains are configured for 160m lengths.




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