Warranties, spun out of Powerline48 thread

 
  wrongroad Deputy Commissioner

Location: Grafton


Split from the Powerline 48 thread recently, see  http://www.railpage.com.au/f-f20.htm

Basically  we ar eusing the 48 as a example, but the discussion trends to any train or itme purchased, - hence the split  - MOD



As both Poath and Aaron have stated, if the unit comes with xyz parts installed, then those parts are covered under warranty.
It has been law in NSW for quite some time (I know this through personal problems with a company and the fact that I handled all warranties and legal obligations at a former work place) and the law changed on the 1st of January 2011 to cover the rest of Australia.
I spent nearly seven months doing courses on the law changes.
You are also supposed to be able to obtain spare parts as well, but that's another story.
And as far as sending in the warranty card for warranty to be valid..ppffhhitttt, all you need is proof of purchase ie credit card statement, bank statement. You do not need the original receipt, however, having said that, it still stops all arguements when you produce the original docket......oh make a copy of that straight away as the hot roll stuff fades to nothing.
Regards and respect

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
As both Poath and Aaron have stated, if the unit comes with xyz parts installed, then those parts are covered under warranty.
It has been law in NSW for quite some time (I know this through personal problems with a company and the fact that I handled all warranties and legal obligations at a former work place) and the law changed on the 1st of January 2011 to cover the rest of Australia.
I spent nearly seven months doing courses on the law changes.
You are also supposed to be able to obtain spare parts as well, but that's another story.
And as far as sending in the warranty card for warranty to be valid..ppffhhitttt, all you need is proof of purchase ie credit card statement, bank statement. You do not need the original receipt, however, having said that, it still stops all arguements when you produce the original docket......oh make a copy of that straight away as the hot roll stuff fades to nothing.
Regards and respect
"wrongroad"


I would caution against relying on a CC or bank statement as a proof of purchase. They do not itemise what you purchased, only from whom you purchased, a dollar figure and when. ALWAYS keep your itemised receipt as proof of purchase, and assume that nothing else will do.

My work will not regard a CC or bank statement as a valid POP, clients routinely complain, to which my standard answer is 'well you could have had a new one, all I ask for is that you keep that insignificant piece of paper we supply when you purchase'. It really is cheap insurance.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
A slight change of policy from powerline regarding the DCC decoder and intent of the loco registration card, as noted at http://www.facebook.com/#!/PowerlineModels (status update posted 14/9/12, reposted in full so no context is lost in translation. Reposted rather than simply linked as many people have issues with facebook suddenly 'remembering' their closed accounts):

"All Powerline Models locomotives that are purchased NEW from a Powerline Retailer have a 12 month warranty against faulty materials or workmanship. All locomotives are provided with a warranty form and this must be completed and sent into Powerline Models to register your locomotive and to speed up any warranty issue that may arise.  We cannot warranty against the individuals activities or work on product.  The locomotives are sold as DC operating locomotives with DCC on board that requires physical switching as a bonus. Although the DCC component is not warrantied, and for those using DCC the NCE DA-SR decoder is recommended, Powerline Models will exchange a new DCC decoder for a seemingly faulty one.  That is you send in your DCC decoder from a Powerline Models locomotive and Powerline Models will send you out another DCC decoder free.  before returning your "faulty" DCC decoder please try the factory reset of CV8=11 at least 3 times first.  Contrary to derogatory comments and discussions elsewhere, Powerline Models stands by its product and always has.

The removal of the 48 Class body has been discussed online and on this FaceBook page.  Powerline Models has spoken to retailer and dealers on the topic and the body removal is not an issue.  By following the directions and doing so with care and patience the body can be removed safely.  It is not a warranty issue but Powerline Models and Powerline Retailers can assist those who find it too hard."
  wrongroad Deputy Commissioner

Location: Grafton
G'day Aaron,
Yes I fully agree with you about keeping the original docket. It saves a lot of dramas. However, this is straight from fair trading to a company here in Grafton that refused warranty on an item as the original purchaser could not produce the docket.
The company was informed in no uncertain terms that a cc or bank statement was all that was required for the customer to claim warranty.
While I (and your good self) can see the hole in this, that is the current ruling from fair trading and this ruling happened in the last eight months or so.
Regards and respect as always
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Logic would surely dictate that ANY Powerline 48 class (of the "new" issue) would automatically be covered, regardless of ANY docket....because the warranty period is 12 months and the models have only been available since earlier this year....so NO model could possibly be out of warranty.....?
  a6et Minister for Railways

I think its a bit of a joke the way that Trainorama sells their diesels as DCC-sound ready.

I've got 4 of the 44s, 2 of the 42s, 2 of the 47s and a 49.

Yes, they all come with a circuit board with a multi-pin socket and either one or two speakers.

However, I have been unable to ascertain what (if any) sound decoder will simply plug-in to the socket (and physically fit on top of the supplied circuit board).

Accordingly, all of these locos have been converted to sound by total removal of the supplied circuit board, being replaced by Tsunami TSU decoders. In most cases I have also removed the speaker/s and done something totally different.

I am hoping the Auscision 422 class (surely these can't be far away now??? last word from Auscision was that they'd be ready before the Liverpool/Sydeny exhibition in early October.....2012!). They've been saying all along that these will have a 21pin decoder socket with twin speakers. All we need now is for a plug'n'play decoder that will slot straight in AND have the correct sounds. Or...they could follow Eureka's lead and just supply the loco with the sound already fitted!

Roachie
"Roachie"


That's because you've decided to remove the supplied circuit board and use Tsunami decoders. If you use Loksounds in the 44 and 42 they plug into the circuit board on top. With plenty of room inside.
"alltrainzfan"


Okay, thanks for that Dan....I wasn't aware that that was the case. Unfortunately, all the Loksound decoders I have had experience with, have left me "cold". I guess it's a bit of a "Ford v Holden" thing; you like either Tsunami or Loksound. I'm in the Tsunami crowd.

Cheers

Roachie
"Roachie"


I'm with you on that Roachie, as I have yet to hear a Loksound that I would have in any or my models.  That said I have to say the sounds that I have listened to on the Victorian DCC sounds web links are in my opinion the best I have heard, yet not so in a model as yet, but I think that is likely to be the speakers in a model as against those on the computer.

Mansfield.   With the new sounds for the 830cl & primarilly they should be ok for the 48cl, however there is one different aspect with the 48cl & that is with the Mk4 version 48126-165 which had different air horns, I understand an RVB type, which were also found on 422, 442, 47 & 73cl, albeit each of those were seemingly tuned differently. I am not sure how many of those loco's are now left with their original horns. It would be a good item to try & capture as well.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Roachie, you're also relatively correct about the periods of time on sale, but the contract of sale (and hence warranty) is with the business from which you bought the product. Which is why you need a POP, it proves a sale contract. Powerline also probably ought not be liable for warranty claims on goods (shall we say) of illegitimate gain.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I am willing to stand corrected, but as far as I am aware, Powerline cannot make the claim "Although the DCC component is not warrantied,". And it goes on to say that they will replace the decoder if found faulty. These terms are contradictory. In one instant of time they are claiming the DCC decoder is not covered by the warranty, and the next they say it will be replaced if found to be faulty.

Come on guys, make up your mind.

Put simply, whatever you supply, it has a statutary warranty, and you cannot exclude parts of the product from warranty. If you don't want to warranty the decoder, then don't put the useless thing in there in the first place.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I am willing to stand corrected, but as far as I am aware, Powerline cannot make the claim "Although the DCC component is not warrantied,". And it goes on to say that they will replace the decoder if found faulty. These terms are contradictory. In one instant of time they are claiming the DCC decoder is not covered by the warranty, and the next they say it will be replaced if found to be faulty.

Come on guys, make up your mind.

Put simply, whatever you supply, it has a statutary warranty, and you cannot exclude parts of the product from warranty. If you don't want to warranty the decoder, then don't put the useless thing in there in the first place.
"TheBlacksmith"


Precisely,  If you buy an empty box then what you get is a warranty on nothing, but if you buy a box with an item inside then it is covered by a statutory warranty of 12 months unless shown otherwise. 

Here is something to consider also in regards to sound decoders.  If you purchase a loco with an OEM decoder in it, & in this case QSI versions they are covered by a 12 month warranty by the importer/producer, remember you pay $99.00 for them & that they are not full featured & generally need firmware upgrades to enable other features that they are capable of.

OTOH, spend an extra $36.00 for one in Australia, or less from the US you now get a decoder with all features enabled, & on top of that you get a 2 year warranty on them.  Of course you have to install the aftermarket decoder but may well be worth learning how to do it.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I am willing to stand corrected, but as far as I am aware, Powerline cannot make the claim "Although the DCC component is not warrantied,". And it goes on to say that they will replace the decoder if found faulty. These terms are contradictory. In one instant of time they are claiming the DCC decoder is not covered by the warranty, and the next they say it will be replaced if found to be faulty.

Come on guys, make up your mind.

Put simply, whatever you supply, it has a statutary warranty, and you cannot exclude parts of the product from warranty. If you don't want to warranty the decoder, then don't put the useless thing in there in the first place.
"TheBlacksmith"


Statutory warranty... Now you're delving into the dark areas of consumer protection!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Precisely, If you buy an empty box then what you get is a warranty on nothing, but if you buy a box with an item inside then it is covered by a statutory warranty of 12 months unless shown otherwise.
"a6et"


That's not quite true and this is the reason that I called it a dark area. Very few consumers properly understand what a statutory warranty is.

Clearly if you 'buy an empty box' there is a warranty on nothing, an odd statement to make.

A statutory warranty is an implied warranty with strangely enough implied terms. It may or my not last for 12 months, it may extend beyond 12 months, or it might be less than 12 months, and it will never be 'unless shown otherwise'. Quite the opposite in fact, you will mostly find products warranty terms specifically state a bunch of terms and conditions and then at the end it will often (should generally always) feature a statement like this:

The benefits conferred by this Guarantee are also in addition to other rights and remedies which the consumer has in law in Australia and New Zealand in respect of this Product, including rights and remedies available under the Trade Practices Act 1974 and State and Territory legislation in Australia and the Fair trading Act 1986 in New Zealand and this Guarantee does not affect such rights and remedies in any way.
"Warranty statement in a Sony booklet I just happen to have on my desk"


What they are referring to here is the statutory warranty, it is implied and based in product value and reputation, which is what makes it difficult to define.

In consumer electronics (the field I am most familiar with) it goes something like this: You could buy an 'unknown' brand 55" TV for $1000 and it will come with a defined 1 year warranty, you could also buy a Sony 55" HX925 (clearly the best 55" TV on the market) for $3699 which also comes with a defined 1 year warranty. If something happens in the first year both 'should' be repaired or replaced etc, but what happens outside of that year? Say after 20 months? Well you'd have to fight probably in both cases, but certainly in the first case to get anything fixed, but this is where the statutory warranty comes into play. The authorities would believe that a reasonable person would reasonably expect to get more that 20 months use from a $3000+ TV, indeed the reason you might have bought this TV is so that you didn't have to replace it every 13 months... They may take the view though that nearly 2 years' use of such a big TV for $1000 provided a reasonable return on your relatively modest investment, and that you ought possibly cut your losses and buy something different.

There is no recommendation for how long a given item ought to last for a given price, which is what makes for such a grey area. Sadly like many things if you were to take a company to court over a statutory warranty issue your chance of a successful claim probably lies more in the skill of the opposing lawyers than anything else, I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
  a6et Minister for Railways


Precisely, If you buy an empty box then what you get is a warranty on nothing, but if you buy a box with an item inside then it is covered by a statutory warranty of 12 months unless shown otherwise.
"a6et"


That's not quite true and this is the reason that I called it a dark area. Very few consumers properly understand what a statutory warranty is.

Clearly if you 'buy an empty box' there is a warranty on nothing, an odd statement to make.

A statutory warranty is an implied warranty with strangely enough implied terms. It may or my not last for 12 months, it may extend beyond 12 months, or it might be less than 12 months, and it will never be 'unless shown otherwise'. Quite the opposite in fact, you will mostly find products warranty terms specifically state a bunch of terms and conditions and then at the end it will often (should generally always) feature a statement like this:

The benefits conferred by this Guarantee are also in addition to other rights and remedies which the consumer has in law in Australia and New Zealand in respect of this Product, including rights and remedies available under the Trade Practices Act 1974 and State and Territory legislation in Australia and the Fair trading Act 1986 in New Zealand and this Guarantee does not affect such rights and remedies in any way.
"Warranty statement in a Sony booklet I just happen to have on my desk"


What they are referring to here is the statutory warranty, it is implied and based in product value and reputation, which is what makes it difficult to define.

In consumer electronics (the field I am most familiar with) it goes something like this: You could buy an 'unknown' brand 55" TV for $1000 and it will come with a defined 1 year warranty, you could also buy a Sony 55" HX925 (clearly the best 55" TV on the market) for $3699 which also comes with a defined 1 year warranty. If something happens in the first year both 'should' be repaired or replaced etc, but what happens outside of that year? Say after 20 months? Well you'd have to fight probably in both cases, but certainly in the first case to get anything fixed, but this is where the statutory warranty comes into play. The authorities would believe that a reasonable person would reasonably expect to get more that 20 months use from a $3000+ TV, indeed the reason you might have bought this TV is so that you didn't have to replace it every 13 months... They may take the view though that nearly 2 years' use of such a big TV for $1000 provided a reasonable return on your relatively modest investment, and that you ought possibly cut your losses and buy something different.

There is no recommendation for how long a given item ought to last for a given price, which is what makes for such a grey area. Sadly like many things if you were to take a company to court over a statutory warranty issue your chance of a successful claim probably lies more in the skill of the opposing lawyers than anything else, I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

"Aaron"


The empty box analogy was more tongue in cheek than anything else, the thing in all of this is when someone brings out a product, any sort of product & states that there is a 12 month or any other time frame, which also includes many with 60 &  90 or even 6 months, as has been said everthing should be covered in the warrantly.  In this case the PL 48cl, the so called items that PL want to not include in the warranty, is clearly wrong, & as others said, why include something that they know will create problems? 

There was also some issues raised recently in regard to people who take out extended warranties which is another minefield as to effectiveness, & should you have problems, even ongoing ones, when in that final year of the warranty, if something goes wrong then you are unlikely to get a happy result, as even Fair trading will usually go on the side of the manufacturer, something I know quite well after protracted & ongoing issues with a $3600 video camera a few years back.
  bjviper Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisvegas
Wasn't the DCC decoder one of the advertised features when the new Powerline 48 was first announced?
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
Wasn't the DCC decoder one of the advertised features when the new Powerline 48 was first announced?
"bjviper"


T class yes, 48 class no.


  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
Must be time for this thread to be split into two - 'warranties on model items' and 'Powerline 48 class'?

On the subject of warranties the Australian Consumer Laws (ACL) are very specific about how they must be supplied, what they can and can't contain, issues for items produced before the new laws and still 'on the shelf unsold now', and the mandatory text for anyone offering a warranty that deviates from ACL basic requirements.

Things to note:
- A warranty document is no longer required to be included with a product. ie if no warranty document is supplied with the item then the warranty is exactly as required under ACL.
- Any warranty if supplied MUST include the mandatory text I noted earlier in the thread. (taking into consideration any items produced before the new laws which have rules to address the issues)
- A warranty document, if being offered, must be supplied with the goods at time of purchase (or time of delivery of the item) however it is not acceptable to say something like "you can can find your warranty at http://www.somesite.com").

Information about "Warranties against defects" can be found at http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/996742

Information about "Extended, voluntary and express warranties" can be found at http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/958709





  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
If we are going to split the thread (needlessly I feel) can we at least have a correctly spelt thread title?


{quote="AMod"] Done ! [/quote]
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Information about "Extended, voluntary and express warranties" can be found at http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/958709
"Poath Junction"


I have a problem with retailer supplied extended warranties, as we have already discussed, statutory warranties provide cover on a product based on it's value at time of purchase. It is illegal to ask/make someone pay to exercise (or contract) their rights, given that the statutory warranty is a right I have a problem with these so called extended warranties costing money, especially since all they really do is put your rights into a contract.

When I raised the legality of these warranties with a provider of them I was eventually told that their clients were not paying for, or contracting out their rights, they were paying for a service that would *fight the battle* (presumably they meant with the manufacturers) for them (the client). So me being me, I asked why the fee increased as the extended warranty term increased and why they were charging according to product price. I suggested that surely the *fight* is the same whether it's had today, next week or in two years' time and that the increased product value should only increase the statutory period and hence make the *fight* easier for a given time, to which I recall getting a terse response indicating that they would provide me with no further response and that (oddly) I could direct further concerns via their lawyers.

Needless to say that company is no longer listed on ASIC and see lots of comments about unfulfilled contracts of warranty in all sorts of internet forums, especially Whirlpool.
  wrongroad Deputy Commissioner

Location: Grafton
When I get asked about purchasing extended warranty I just laugh and say no.
After working for a major retail store during the eighties, when this extended warranty was really being pushed for, perhaps, the first time, I found out all about the scam it really is.
I was even told that I would be sacked if I did not sell twenty units a week. At that stage I told the area manager to bring it on. I never offered or sold a single extended warranty unit. I never got sacked either.
If in any doubt about warranty ring fair trading or your state body covering this, and ask the people who deal with this all the time. You may, in fact, be amazed as to what your rights, in your favour, really are.
Regards and respect.
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
When I get asked about purchasing extended warranty I just laugh and say no.
After working for a major retail store during the eighties, when this extended warranty was really being pushed for, perhaps, the first time, I found out all about the scam it really is.
I was even told that I would be sacked if I did not sell twenty units a week. At that stage I told the area manager to bring it on. I never offered or sold a single extended warranty unit. I never got sacked either.
If in any doubt about warranty ring fair trading or your state body covering this, and ask the people who deal with this all the time. You may, in fact, be amazed as to what your rights, in your favour, really are.
Regards and respect.
"wrongroad"


I usually say no to extended warranty but a few years back I got it bundled into the price of a kitchen oven.  Well guess what, the oven developed a problem and the extended warranty worked - a week later the oven was fixed with a $240 component and the visit costing me nothing.  I will still say no though.

Mark
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

I would think that anyone who was selling anything new would be advised to read this before selling anything, it might open their eyes just as to what can and cannot be done about a warranty. It is an official Australian Govt site and set's everything out clearly.

http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/the_acl/downloads/consumer_guarantees_guide.pdf

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