October 2013 Timetable

 
  Rails Chief Commissioner

Looking at the timetable the biggest loser is surely the upper North Shore (Ku-Ring-Gai), not only are the train numbers heavily cut, they seem to be at times when there is still a lot of patronage on this line in particular (not so much some others). The patterns seem odd too, surely this will make crowding at the CBD platforms much worse? Something this timetable was meant to fix.

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  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
So basically it will be the same as they want to do with the "Metro" Hurstville line, where the double deckers all run one fast pattern and the Single Deck runs the local pattern with 10 tph.
Rails
That sucks. But at least they are planning this timetable for the future when SWRL, NWRL and Metro come into operation.
  bjwh86 Chief Train Controller

Also noticed that the North Coast XPT service from Sydney would leave For Brisbane at 14:41 rather than current 16:12, others are earlier by only 4 minutes.

The return services seem to arrive in Sydney up to 1 hour earlier.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Newcastle area looses the suburban K-Sets/Oscars doing K Set runs, to be replaced with the extension of Wyong Outer Suburban runs to/from Newcastle, being all stops between Newcastle & Gosford/Berowra (depending on service), with V-sets doing what are the semi-express runs.

The equivalent of the 6:12 Newcastle to Sydney & 17:15 Sydney to Newcastle now stops all stations between Newcastle & Broadmeadow. Currently, for those two, it is Newcastle, Hamilton & Broadmeadow, and v.v.

Also it is not a typing error that the 17:15 Sydney to Newcastle will not at stop at Hornsby from October. (I can see that stop being re-instated)
Also the equivalent of the 06:12 & the 08:04 (to be 06:18 & 08:19) are to have more stops added.

08:04 for example, instead of Newcastle, all to Broadmeadow, Cardiff, Fassifern, Moriset, Gosford, Hornsby, Strathfield & Sydney (total = 2 hr 29 mins), but from October, it's meant to be 08:19 with these stops are to be added, Wyong, Tuggerah, Epping & Eastwood. (Total will be 2hrs 37 minutes.)
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
Newcastle area looses the suburban K-Sets/Oscars doing K Set runs, to be replaced with the extension of Wyong Outer Suburban runs to/from Newcastle, being all stops between Newcastle & Gosford/Berowra (depending on service), with V-sets doing what are the semi-express runs.

The equivalent of the 6:12 Newcastle to Sydney & 17:15 Sydney to Newcastle now stop all stations between Newcastle & Broadmeadow. Currently, for those two, it is Newcastle, Hamilton & Broadmeadow, and v.v.

Also it is NOT typing error that the 17:15 Sydney to Newcastle will not at stop at Hornsby from October. (I can see that stop being re-instated)
Also the equivalent of the 06:12 & the 08:04 (to be 06:18 & 08:19) are to have more stops added.

08:04 for example, instead of Newcastle, all to Broadmeadow, Cardiff, Fassifern, Moriset, Gosford, Hornsby, Strathfield & Sydney (total = 2 hr 29 mins), but from October, it's meant to be 08:19 with these stops are to be added, Wyong, Tuggerah, Epping & Eastwood. (Total will be 2hrs 37 minutes.

I can see that will get a backlash.
Newcastle Express
My thoughts on the 1715 ex Sydney Terminal, what about Central Coast/Newcastle Workers in the Chatswood/Macquarie area??
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

They will need to get the train leaving Central at 17:29 (Epping 17:55) to Gosford.

Also what does "e" mean at Strathfield for the Newcastle to Central trains (no explanation at the top)?
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
They will need to get the train leaving Central at 17:29 (Epping 17:55) to Gosford.
Which gets them home later, even more so if they have to catch a later bus connection at the other end now.
Not to mention if they live North of Gosford, a change there and at least 30 mins more travelling time.
  rrroLLa Chief Train Controller

Are the two books meant to be different possible timetables or something?
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
Are the two books meant to be different possible timetables or something?
rrroLLa
1 Book Mon-Fri
1 Book Sat-Sun/Public Holidays
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Book 2 would be for weekends, book 4 for freight time tables etc etc
  Aurora8 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Of the five books, Book 1 contains the weekday timetable and Book 2 contains the weekend & public holidays timetable.

Not a good look for Transport for NSW that there's been a SWTT leak.
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
For the Southern Highlands:
1. Weekend timetable is identical, still 2 hour frequencies Evil or Very Mad
2. Extra services have been introduced: Very Happy
-04:20 Moss Vale to Campbelltown
-05:31 Goulburn express to Campbelltown
-08:00 Moss Vale to Campbelltown
-12:56 Moss Vale to Campbelltown
-11:22 Campbelltown to Moss Vale  
4. No Moss Vale-Sydney-Moss Vale train, which allows the filling up of the mid-day gap
5. The Goulburn-Sydney train makes an additional stop at Tahmoor and Glenfield, now arrives Sydney at 10:34 instead of 10:00. Amalgamation of sets (into 4 cars) at Moss Vale on the up, rather than at storage on the down to Goulburn
6. The 15:48 Sydney-Goulburn now departs Sydney at 16:02.
7. Every down service still stops all stations to Moss Vale, including the 16:02 direct train and peak services. Evil or Very Mad
7. Southern Countrylink journey times as far as Goulburn are very similar/identical, despite now going via East Hills. Evil or Very Mad
8. The evening Canberra service into Sydney and 18:12 to Canberra are now daily services. Very Happy

There may be other changes but that's what I've notices thus far.
  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network
Seven News


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0734ea45lk&feature=youtu.be
  Kamz Assistant Commissioner

Newcastle area looses the suburban K-Sets/Oscars doing K Set runs, to be replaced with the extension of Wyong Outer Suburban runs to/from Newcastle, being all stops between Newcastle & Gosford/Berowra
Newcastle Express
Very interesting. Wish they also did that on weekends. Seems like a really good move.


Has anything significant changed on the weekends? It doesn't appear so.



No one has mentioned the Hunter. Smile

Mindaribba, Hilldale, Wallarobba and Wirragulla will become 'a' stops for all services. Seems pointless.

The 12.57 Newcastle to Dungog and return has been moved 2.5 hours earlier in the new timetable.
  dirge Chief Train Controller

Location: 33° 58' 6" S; 151° 7' 28" E
Some comments on the changes to the Illawarra:

No doubt regular peak commuters from Sydenham, Rockdale & Kogarah will complain.

TBH I have little sympathy for the Rockdale commuters. I've lived at Carlton & watched as we'd stop at Rockdale in the mornings; a few get on & mostly get a seat while a whole lot more wait for the slightly faster (3 skipped stops) trains from Waterfall & Cronulla. With 15 min frequency moving to 10, Rockdale would be adequately serviced. Now I live past Hurstville and see all the Rockdale commuters get on the already standing-room-only faster services.

Sydenham probably has enough trains still, although fewer than before (and noone will get a seat in the morning as is the case now) though the all stations trains they do get will have more room. I could understand the complaints of someone who commutes between (say) Dulwich Hill & Miranda; two trains just became 3 or an interchange at Redfern/Central - mind you I expect the affected numbers are small.

The Kogarah commuters will be unimpressed and it _is_ a fairly busy station. Of course, all the commuters who rely on full Cronulla/Waterfall services are more likely to get a seat in the morning & will get used to it, I expect (though I expect they'll miss the faster trains that fly between Kogarah & Sydenham/Wolli Creek). But Kogarah is a relatively busy _destination_, with 2 hospitals, 4 schools, a TAFE and what's left of St George Bank's head office nearby. Much of the interchanging at Hurstville will be for Kogarah & TBH there'll be a _lot_ of schoolkids running across the top of the station in the morning peak which will be messy given how busy that station's single bridge/exit/entry can be. If it was a cross-platform interchange fine, but it's not, so I wouldn't be surprised if Kogarah gets added to the express services before October or in the next revision.
  clrks Locomotive Fireman

Speaking of the two trains just became three (for Dulwich Hill to Miranda), everyone probably knew this was going to happen for an age now, but consider Sefton to Summer Hill.

From 1 train to 4!!!

Used to be Sefton --> Summer Hill (via Regents Park)

Now:

Sefton --> Birrong
Birrong --> Lidcombe
Lidcombe --> Strathfield (or Homebush, or Burwood, or Croydon or Ashfield)
Strathfield --> Summer Hill
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Interesting how this "leak" just happens to be the day after the Liberal's Budget Reply.

But as I stated before, does anyone know what the "e" after Strathfield &/or Redfern for the Newcastle to Sydney trains means?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Looking at the timetable the biggest loser is surely the upper North Shore (Ku-Ring-Gai), not only are the train numbers heavily cut, they seem to be at times when there is still a lot of patronage on this line in particular (not so much some others). The patterns seem odd too, surely this will make crowding at the CBD platforms much worse? Something this timetable was meant to fix.
Rails

Here is a comparison of the North Shore between now and the new timetable.  Times are from Central to Hornsby (where reasonable) in the PM peak DOWN direction

Now:

  • 17:02  ECL
  • 17:05 Nth Sydney Terminator
  • 17:08 Wyong (-RLK -TWW) 17:55
  • NB lost a minute here
  • 17:12 Hornsby (-ww)
  • 17:15 ECL
  • 17:18 Wyong (-RLK -TWW) 18:05
  • 17:21 Berowa    18:12
  • 17:24 ---Unused---
  • NB Lost another minute here
  • 17:28 Hornsby   18:20
  • 17:31 ECL
  • NB Lost another minute here
  • 17:35 Nth Sydney Terminator
  • 17:40 Gosford   (-RLK -TWW) 18:26
  • 17:43 Hornsby  18:34
  • 17:46 ECL
  • 17:51 Berowa (-ww)
  • 17:54 Nth Sydney Terminator
  • NB Lost another minute here
  • 17:58 Hornsby 18:49
  • 18:02 ECL (ie start of the next hour).

Train to Kilara are spaced at:
14, 9, 7, 15, 8, 7 min intervals.

The new timetable is much more regular.

  • 17:02 Hornsby (-RK)  17:50
  • 17:05 ECL
  • 17:08 Berowa (-PWW) 17:55
  • 17:11 ---Unused---
  • 17:14 Wyong (-RKPTWWW) 18:00
  • NB Pattern repeats cleanly from here, with 2 small variation
  • 17:17 Hornsby (-RK)  18:05
  • 17:20 ECL
  • 17:23 Hornsby (-PWW) 18:10  NB Same as Berowa pattern, but only every second train runs to Berowa)
  • 17:26 ---Unused---
  • 17:29 Gosford  (-RKPTWWW ) 18:15
  • NB Pattern repeats from here more or less exactly
  • 17:32 Hornsby (-RK)  18:20
  • 17:35 ECL
  • 17:38 Berowa (-PWW) 18:25
  • 17:41 ---Unused---
  • 17:44 Wyong (-RKPTWWW) 18:30
  • NB Pattern repeats cleanly from here, with 2 small variation
  • 17:17 Hornsby (-RK)  18:05
  • 17:20 ECL
  • 17:23 Hornsby (-PWW) 18:10  NB Same as Berowa pattern, but only every second train runs to Berowa)
  • 17:26 ---Unused---
  • 17:29 North Sydney Terminator (end of the peak, no more Shore interurbans)

All trains have the same pattern to Chatswood.  There are 2 patterns to Hornsby, one skipping Roseville & Kilara, the other Pymble, Warrawee and Wahroonga.

The upper North Shore gets 8 dedicated trains during the peak in October, but they only get 6 now.  The three central coast trains won't make quite as many stops as now, which accounts for the service frequency decrease at some stations.

Trains to Roseville, Kilara, Pymble, Warrawee and Wahroonga are only 4tph, but evenly spaced at 15min.  Now there are more trains, but two gaps of 14 and 15 minutes during the peak hour anyway.  Most other stations get not just a a higher frequency, but also a more even spacing.  These station's trains should also be carrying fewer PAX than the current timetable as they service less other stations.

Trains to the Central Coast make fewer shore stops in October, skipping 7 rather than 6 of the 9 stops between Chatswood and Hornsby currently.

It also fixes a big problem with the old timetable where there is a 15 min gap between services to most station in the heart of the peak, and the first train after the gap is to the central coast.  Not surprisingly, few PAX actually going to the central coast board this train.

The two Hornsby patterns are reasonably evenly spaced, and stay at least 6 minutes apart until they reach Hornbsy, so the gap between trains at 4 of the 9 upper north shore stations is no more than 9 minutes.  Turramurra gets a 7/8 separation which is the best that can be done with 15min time blocks, so I guess Gladys must live there.  But they lose their direct peak hour connection to Gosford, presumably to keep out those central coast bogans.

You might also notice there will be 4 completely unused slots, at 6/9 min from the ECL trains which are presumably there to support the NWRL Smile.

The other thing about this new timetable is it looks extremely stable and there doesn't seem to be too much which can go wrong and cascade.

On the whole I don't think there is a real lot to complain about.  The Central Coast trains all have a vacant slot in front of them can shouldn't have any issue making their path at Hornsby.

On the whole, I don't think there is much to complain about.  Had they chosen to, a lot of the principles applied in this timetable here could have been used to speed it up a bit more, but that obviously wasn't the objective here!
  bernerd Junior Train Controller

Newcastle Express - 'e' = early
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
On the East Hills and Airport line, I have noticed that there aren't any Macarthur via Sydenham services outside of peak hour but they compensate with numerous services via the Airport that are express from Holsworthy to Wolli Creek. Smile
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
No doubt regular peak commuters from Sydenham, Rockdale & Kogarah will complain.
"dirge"
Absolutely.

TBH I have little sympathy for the Rockdale commuters. I've lived at Carlton & watched as we'd stop at Rockdale in the mornings; a few get on & mostly get a seat while a whole lot more wait for the slightly faster (3 skipped stops) trains from Waterfall & Cronulla. With 15 min frequency moving to 10, Rockdale would be adequately serviced. Now I live past Hurstville and see all the Rockdale commuters get on the already standing-room-only faster services.
"dirge"
It doesn't matter. Rockdale will lose 50% of its total service.

Sydenham probably has enough trains still, although fewer than before (and noone will get a seat in the morning as is the case now) though the all stations trains they do get will have more room. I could understand the complaints of someone who commutes between (say) Dulwich Hill & Miranda; two trains just became 3 or an interchange at Redfern/Central - mind you I expect the affected numbers are small.
"dirge"
Sydenham is less objectionable because there are also Bankstown trains to compensate. On fast Illawarra services, the passenger exchange at Sydenham is not especially voluminous; at least, not compared to Rockdale and especially Kogarah.

The Kogarah commuters will be unimpressed and it _is_ a fairly busy station. Of course, all the commuters who rely on full Cronulla/Waterfall services are more likely to get a seat in the morning & will get used to it, I expect (though I expect they'll miss the faster trains that fly between Kogarah & Sydenham/Wolli Creek).
"dirge"
Passengers like faster services and will happily pack themselves into stuffed trains to take advantage of the overtake.

But Kogarah is a relatively busy _destination_, with 2 hospitals, 4 schools, a TAFE and what's left of St George Bank's head office nearby. Much of the interchanging at Hurstville will be for Kogarah & TBH there'll be a _lot_ of schoolkids running across the top of the station in the morning peak which will be messy given how busy that station's single bridge/exit/entry can be. If it was a cross-platform interchange fine, but it's not, so I wouldn't be surprised if Kogarah gets added to the express services before October or in the next revision.
"dirge"
I believe it is imperative that at least Kogarah have its service restored.
  Rails Chief Commissioner

Here is a comparison of the North Shore between now and the new timetable.  Times are from Central to Hornsby (where reasonable) in the PM peak DOWN direction

Now:

snip


All trains have the same pattern to Chatswood.  There are 2 patterns to Hornsby, one skipping Roseville & Kilara, the other Pymble, Warrawee and Wahroonga.

The upper North Shore gets 8 dedicated trains during the peak in October, but they only get 6 now.  The three central coast trains won't make quite as many stops as now, which accounts for the service frequency decrease at some stations.

Trains to Roseville, Kilara, Pymble, Warrawee and Wahroonga are only 4tph, but evenly spaced at 15min.  Now there are more trains, but two gaps of 14 and 15 minutes during the peak hour anyway.  Most other stations get not just a a higher frequency, but also a more even spacing.  These station's trains should also be carrying fewer PAX than the current timetable as they service less other stations.

Trains to the Central Coast make fewer shore stops in October, skipping 7 rather than 6 of the 9 stops between Chatswood and Hornsby currently.

It also fixes a big problem with the old timetable where there is a 15 min gap between services to most station in the heart of the peak, and the first train after the gap is to the central coast.  Not surprisingly, few PAX actually going to the central coast board this train.

The two Hornsby patterns are reasonably evenly spaced, and stay at least 6 minutes apart until they reach Hornbsy, so the gap between trains at 4 of the 9 upper north shore stations is no more than 9 minutes.  Turramurra gets a 7/8 separation which is the best that can be done with 15min time blocks, so I guess Gladys must live there.  But they lose their direct peak hour connection to Gosford, presumably to keep out those central coast bogans.

You might also notice there will be 4 completely unused slots, at 6/9 min from the ECL trains which are presumably there to support the NWRL Smile.

The other thing about this new timetable is it looks extremely stable and there doesn't seem to be too much which can go wrong and cascade.

On the whole I don't think there is a real lot to complain about.  The Central Coast trains all have a vacant slot in front of them can shouldn't have any issue making their path at Hornsby.

On the whole, I don't think there is much to complain about.  Had they chosen to, a lot of the principles applied in this timetable here could have been used to speed it up a bit more, but that obviously wasn't the objective here!
djf01
Fair point, detailed and well written response. Maybe its not a lot to complain about and I do understand why they have done it plus I agree that the trains being more spaced evenly is a positive thing but many including myself dont support 15 minute frequencies, let alone in peak. Really 10 is the max that we should be looking at, especially in the middle ring suburbs that have decent enough density surrounding the stations and an expectation of making connections from other modes. Yes there are two 14 and 15 min gaps in that hour at the moment but they are caused by the Coast trains. That is where the real issue lies. You could have a more evenly spaced pattern with better frequencies if you had no Coast via Shore trains. For the most part the upper North Shore is currently running somewhere around an 8 minute service which is just right I think. I find unlike most Sydney lines, travel is very heavy on the North Shore line outside of that hour too, lots of executive travel I think. Turn up and go type travellers. Very different to say the Western line.

I think you will find the passengers will see the frequency as a cut, the trains themselves for the most part are not currently overloaded like other lines so passengers are not gaining anything by separating out the stations and I think with maybe the exception of Turramurra the trains are no faster than now despite skipping stops however it gives the appearance of an express like service so it may be a winner on that front. However to me it seems all these patterns goes against what they were talking about trying to achieve with this timetable. There are a lot of complaints regarding the Kogarah issue but even that is a 10 minute service so past the fact that Hurstville's layout is not conducive to good transfers like a station such as Chatswood its better than 15 minute gaps I think and I like the idea of a proper local and express pattern.  

With multiple patterns on a 15 minute frequency, at stations like Wynyard and Town Hall you are going to have to convince people to still board one of the other trains if they miss their relevant service because the last thing you want is people standing on platforms for 15 mins waiting for a train to Killara, others to Pymble and again others for another train to Berowra. I also think outside of the CBD with the other major Northern employment centres 15 min frequency can discourage people from using the train, most of these suburbs can drive to Chatswood/ St Leonards/ North Sydney in 10-20 minutes, so if they have to walk 10 mins to and from the station at each end, get a bus connection or drive from a bit further out and risk missing their train due to factors out of their control meaning waiting another 15 mins then its not a very attractive service.

Plus studies have shown that the max passengers seem to be prepared to comfortably wait for a service is 10 mins and its not like these are outer low density suburbs anymore. Now I know most will say that other areas are in the same boat but the vast majority have not accepted so much density in the last 5 years and lost so much character based on nothing other than having a turn up and go rail system. I think some locals will be disapointed. I myself was hoping to see the frequencies of other areas improved rather than higher frequency areas lowered to match. However having said all this I think they have done well with what they have to work with and in the end, I guess we will find out how it goes, I do hope its successful.

I find it interesting how the sector 3 trains now seem to come from everywhere and end up in many varied destinations, again very different to what I expected from this timetable. Might be a mess when you have major issues like we have had recently. Time will tell.

P.S. I think Gladys lives in Willoughby and catches the bus to work. Turramurra is the major bus interchange for South Turramurra and North Wahroonga plus the SAN hostpital so it gets more trains.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Plus studies have shown that the max passengers seem to be prepared to comfortably wait for a service is 10 mins
Rails
Reference?

I'm not that worried about only having a 15 minute frequency making people return to driving in peak hour.  I doubt that very much, except perhaps people only going a few stations and not to the CBD.  It's what most of the Northern Line has had to endure for ages, current timetable on the Bankstown line has 16-23 minute gaps for a number of stations not served by the expresses, as does the Sefton-Carramar stretch.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Any reason why only every second train should extend to Berowra?  The 26 minute gap 18:34 - 19:00 at Asquith is poor.  As is the 25 minute one 18:04-18:29.

djf01, a couple of points of order: Hornsby bound trains don't serve Lindfield, that's why the time isn't bold.  Last 15 minute block is +30 minutes.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I think you will find the passengers will see the frequency as a cut, the trains themselves for the most part are not currently overloaded like other lines so passengers are not gaining anything by separating out the stations and I think with maybe the exception of Turramurra the trains are no faster than now despite skipping stops however it gives the appearance of an express like service so it may be a winner on that front. However to me it seems all these patterns goes against what they were talking about trying to achieve with this timetable. There are a lot of complaints regarding the Kogarah issue but even that is a 10 minute service so past the fact that Hurstville's layout is not conducive to good transfers like a station such as Chatswood its better than 15 minute gaps I think and I like the idea of a proper local and express pattern.  

With multiple patterns on a 15 minute frequency, at stations like Wynyard and Town Hall you are going to have to convince people to still board one of the other trains if they miss their relevant service because the last thing you want is people standing on platforms for 15 mins waiting for a train to Killara, others to Pymble and again others for another train to Berowra. I also think outside of the CBD with the other major Northern employment centres 15 min frequency can discourage people from using the train, most of these suburbs can drive to Chatswood/ St Leonards/ North Sydney in 10-20 minutes, so if they have to walk 10 mins to and from the station at each end, get a bus connection or drive from a bit further out and risk missing their train due to factors out of their control meaning waiting another 15 mins then its not a very attractive service.
Rails

I think without the skip-stopping the timetable would have been slower, as all trains have an identical stop everywhere pattern south of Chatswood.  They couldn't add more stops to the Central Coast patterns, and to for stability and to maintain the even separation they needed to ensure *some* local services skipped stop at least some stations.  There really isn't any other way to increase the numbers of train per hour at these stations without leaving 15 min holes anyway, and without leaving big holes at other stations as well.  From what I understand about station usage patterns, they've picked the least used stations to minimise the number of PAX who get a 15 min frequency (with the possible exception of Turramurra.  I'm not saying it's ideal, but it's much better than currently.  

Another feature of the TT is Hornsby gets a regular 5 min spaced frequency on the suburbans (some from the CC), which should - in theory - mean PAX there will be much more reluctant to get a "faster" interurban via Strathfield.  

The bottom line is 10 min frequency is extremely difficult to achieve and fully utilise line capacity because the minimum/standard separations are 3 minutes.  3 is co-prime with 9, 12 and 15.  At one stage the North Shore was tabled using something resembling a 12 min repetition, but that is incompatible with the 4tph on the ECL, and interacting the main north North of Hornsby.

As for mode changes, I know very little about bus interchanges on the North Shore, but if the bus feeders are adjusted to hub out of Gordon and Turramurra, that should further shift the load away from the less well used stations.

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