http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/safety-devices-to-be-removed-from-trains/story-fn3dxiwe-1226641313650
Just came across this article , hadn't heard anything about it before
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/safety-devices-to-be-removed-from-trains/story-fn3dxiwe-1226641313650
The Dets contained within the Driver's Cab on Trains, and not the Dets used by Track Maintenance workers, are usually used when a train breaks down and is stopped on a section of track for an extended period and cannot be moved.all very true, but for us old blokes it goes back a bit further than that, remember in staff and ticket where you had time block or permissive working, where a train would enter a section, usually a long one, then after a specified period, depending on what it was (freight following a pass for example) it was permitted to enter the section with the appropriate token and a "Train Ahead Notice" tan.
To protect the rear of the train, the Crew will walk back some distance and place the Dets down to warn following trains to stop due to some obstruction on the line.
This situation would normally arise on lengthy "Automatic Sections", say the Blue Mountains, or Central Coast, where Signal Control is less frequent.
A following train could pass a Stop Signal after a specified time, and proceed around a sharp curve of track, at low speed, and suddenly be confronted by the rear of the broken down train in front.
These days, there is more communication between Train and Signaller, plus the Train Location System is increasing and nearly every line is covered.
Trains are now warned by a more specialised Train Radio Communication system, and also there are more procedures to be carried out before a train can pass a Signal at Stop.
- Scott.
A following train could pass a Stop Signal after a specified time, and proceed around a sharp curve of track, at low speed, and suddenly be confronted by the rear of the broken down train in front.
all very true, but for us old blokes it goes back a bit further than that, remember in staff and ticket where you had time block or permissive working, where a train would enter a section, usually a long one, then after a specified period, depending on what it was (freight following a pass for example) it was permitted to enter the section with the appropriate token and a "Train Ahead Notice" tan.
Needless to say if you were on the first train, the knowledge that there was a following movememt possibly 20 min behind you, and there was no signal protection, no radio, then there was a scurry to have the guard protect.
This situation can still arise. Communication between driver/guard and signaller is not guaranteed and the current train radio is far from 100% reliable. Drivers can still pass red automatic signals without speaking to the signaller if for example the signaller cannot be raised on the radio or telephone.
Train crew should not assume that the signaller will always know what is going on in automatic sections because, among other things, the indications for these areas in signal boxes are often non-vital and occasionally freeze or fail.
I don't think this is a good idea, but this sort of "reform" doesn't surprise me. Again, I think we are opening up holes in safety defences just to save a few dollars.
To think that train crew are no longer expected to have an interest in laying protection in case of emergency, even if it's only a "just in case" measure, is ridiculous.
What about track circuit actuating clips - has anyone heard anything about their removal?
Since it is the guard who typically protects in rear, I wonder if this is a sign that guards may not be with us for much longer.
Sorry![]()
It's not that uncommon to be unable to raise signal boxes when sitting at autos, especially on State of Origin night.
M
Yes, true.More likely this move is so guards can be moved to the middle of the train on 8 car sets up the Blue Mountains and Illawarra lines to get rid of on board repeaters and station staff on curved platforms that are only manned for a few hours a day. It is a not surprising move to save money.
In that case, especially in the Metro area, I'd be more inclined to sit where I was, unless I thought I could dribble forward, with confidence, and see what was ahead without incident.
- Scott.
Sometimes, things go seriously wrong, and it's all well and good for us to say that we have radios and track indicator diagrams now, but that won't help after the crash.perhaps rather than whipping ourselves into a frenzy on things that we know little about, we wait until we see what the replacement rules are?
I'd hate to think that an accident could occur because communication with the signaller was down and there were no dets to protect a derailed/detained train.
Detonators, fusees, flags and hand lamps are the first principles of train protection.
Another thing: I hope they aren't going to remove detonators from trains that enter non track-circuited areas.
"Disasters don't just happen. They are triggered by a chain of critical events. Unravel the fateful decisions in those final seconds from disaster."
Those fateful decisions start with management. The risk assessments these guys must be using sound about as reliable as those used by investment banks in the lead up to the GFC. Next thing they'll delete the train protection instructions from the rule book.
perhaps rather than whipping ourselves into a frenzy on things that we know little about, we wait until we see what the replacement rules are?You think this is a frenzy? You ain't seen nothing yet...
"detonators, flags and hand lamps are the first principles of train protection"
well wrong, they are the last, track circuitry, communications are a reflection of changing and evolving technologies that now form a part of the higher levels.
indeed I remember when there were no track circuit shorting clips,
but a reliance on detonators seems to be wedded in 19th century methods.
imagine if you will, a 1500 metre freight train where the person laying the protection has to first walk 1500 metres in the cess, then proceed another 500 metres to lay the primary protection, then proceed another couple of km to lay more protection, how long does this take?Laying detonators may not be feasible in every part of the network but that does not render them totally useless.
then return to the loco, imagine doing this on the Cowan Bank, where is the safe place for the person to walk,
an outdated practise that should be consigned to the museum where it belongs
In that case, especially in the Metro area, I'd be more inclined to sit where I was, unless I thought I could dribble forward, with confidence, and see what was ahead without incident.
- Scott.
I can see why they are removing them. The amount of equipment lockers we repair at HMC due to vandals stealing Dets and Vests is out of control. On the flip side, I hope it doesn't compromise crew and passenger safety.Kids stealing them isn't a new phenomenon - been going on for decades (although it seems kids aren't too bright these days at avoiding blowing themselves up)
Sounds like the railways are letting dickheads with MBAs write the safeworking rules yet again...Lol the good ol' MBA (Master of Bugger All)... The decision was almost certainly made by a bunch of people who have either never been exposed to the risks (meaning most railway managers), never read many accident reports and seen what has happened in the past (meaning most railway managers), never seen or forgotten how often radios and telephones fail (meaning most railway managers), or who have been desensitised by spending years in an office (meaning most railway managers), and fooled by the wow factor of modern technology that will supposedly always save the day... until it doesn't.
...
When I park on a hill, I leave the car in gear. By the logic applied in this thread, why should I bother doing that if I've got the handbrake on? ...
when was the last time you heard of a derailed train fouling an adjacent running line get smacked by a train in the opposing direction because no protection was placed? Or get hit up the bum because no protection was laid and the following train passed an auto at stopBoth types of incident have occurred in the Sydney Metropolitan Area with EMUs, but not recently. If they have happened before, they could happen again.
Both types of incident have occurred in the Sydney Metropolitan Area with EMUs, but not recently. If they have happened before, they could happen again.
Risk assessments go deeper than it happened, it could happen again.Umm yeah, right. Remember what operator you are talking about here!
It's also what could happen and probably more likely - like someone getting rundown trying to place the fire-crackers.
Sounds more like another sacred cow reaction.
We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.