Keith Jones buying another seven steam locos

 
  allambee Chief Train Controller




Some people like hoarding cats - others obviously like hoarding iron horses...

"jjbc"


The condition is called "Compulsive Hording"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_hoarding


The condition doesn't necessarily apply to people collecting cats or keeping mountains of junk in their house like the Collyer Brothers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyer_brothers


The closest compulsive hording comparision with the Dorrigo "collection" is the case of Alexander Miller in the USA who collected (hoarded) a very large collection of expensive antique motor vehicles and did nothing with them. - except let them rot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kennedy_Miller


What differentiates the Dorrigo "collection" with Alexander Millier, is the person at Dorrigo has managed to recruit a willing supporters group ( translation - recruited complete mugs) to help with financing and his collecting.

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  Russell_Pangit Station Master


There would have been at the time conditions of transfer, these may have expired over the years, but if they haven't concerned people can could start hitting the "South Maitland Railways Company" fax address and phone number to stir someone into going thru old files. ?  I understand the "South Maitland Railways Company" still exists as a commercial entity, owned by a major mining company.?  I noticed the company letterhead on some project documents a few years ago. The GM of this company is on Linkedin if you want to do some googling.
"allambee"


Who told you that about the company ownership?

Yes it does still exist, but do you really think they would give a toot about the old engines? They own it for money reasons, not heritage - sadly.

  7006 Locomotive Driver

The condition is called "Compulsive Hording"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_hoarding
The condition doesn't necessarily apply to people collecting cats or keeping mountains of junk in their house like the Collyer Brothers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyer_brothers
The closest compulsive hording comparision with the Dorrigo "collection" is the case of Alexander Miller in the USA who collected (hoarded) a very large collection of expensive antique motor vehicles and did nothing with them. - except let them rot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kennedy_Miller
What differentiates the Dorrigo "collection" with Alexander Millier, is the person at Dorrigo has managed to recruit a willing supporters group ( translation - recruited complete mugs) to help with financing and his collecting.
allambee

I have heard Heritage NSW is looking to this deal calling for submissions from people who want to see them stay in the Hunter. Has anyone seen the add in the papers from Heritage NSW?
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

No, I can't find any paper about this at the moment.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Tessa, I know about that article in that paper, I meant the paper as 7006 describles.
  7006 Locomotive Driver

Tessa, I know about that article in that paper, I meant the paper as 7006 describles.
Newcastle Express

I was only told there was something in the paper what Tezza posted is the first I have seen of this. Who will be putting a submission?
  Duffy Chief Commissioner

Location: ACT
Out of interest, what exactly are you going to put in your submissions? its all well and good saying Keith Jones is a bad man/hoarder/whatever and shouldn't get the engines, but what well thought out, logical and sustainable alternative can you offer?  Unless you include said alternative in your letter, it'll find its way into the fanciful gunzel tripe pile (ie the bin) without so much as a second glance.

The minister/department will be looking at this from a practical point of view in so much as that there are 2 operational examples persevered at Maitland and 4(?) at Richmond Vale meaning they aren't exactly unique and the last thing that the government is going to want is to be saddled with half a dozen engines in varying degrees of decay and completeness, particularly given the other shenanigans takingplace in the rail heritage movement at present.
  7006 Locomotive Driver

Out of interest, what exactly are you going to put in your submissions? its all well and good saying Keith Jones is a bad man/hoarder/whatever and shouldn't get the engines, but what well thought out, logical and sustainable alternative can you offer?  Unless you include said alternative in your letter, it'll find its way into the fanciful gunzel tripe pile (ie the bin) without so much as a second glance.

The minister/department will be looking at this from a practical point of view in so much as that there are 2 operational examples persevered at Maitland and 4(?) at Richmond Vale meaning they aren't exactly unique and the last thing that the government is going to want is to be saddled with half a dozen engines in varying degrees of decay and completeness, particularly given the other shenanigans takingplace in the rail heritage movement at present.
Duffy

I understand there is heritage group in the hunter willing and able to take on the locos restoration but not willing to pay the crazy price Keith is offering. It could be if the second group puts up a strong case they could be staying in the Hunter region and the reason why the Minister has stepped in.
  fernhill Chief Train Controller

I have already out this in under the NSW thread

It has been advertised in todays paper as a Section 60.  This is an application to change something on the State Heritage Register.  It gives you all the opportunity to object or support.
On what I have witnessed everybody from the Hunter should be objecting on the grounds that they are specific to the Hunter Region and the new owner should submit a plan on how and the ability to care for these locomotives. Including their track record.
If the new owner does not care for something on the State Heritage Register there are up to $1mill fines.
But before we get to this stage the people from SMR region should be jumping up and down.
Photographs may help the cause
Heritage Council address for this is
[color=#0066cc]www.environment.nsw.gov.au/heritageapp/ ... tions.aspx
[/color]
I have seen and enough to be worried
Speak now or fore ever hold your peace
  allambee Chief Train Controller

I have already out this in under the NSW thread

It has been advertised in todays paper as a Section 60.  This is an application to change something on the State Heritage Register.  It gives you all the opportunity to object or support.
On what I have witnessed everybody from the Hunter should be objecting on the grounds that they are specific to the Hunter Region and the new owner should submit a plan on how and the ability to care for these locomotives. Including their track record.
If the new owner does not care for something on the State Heritage Register there are up to $1mill fines.
But before we get to this stage the people from SMR region should be jumping up and down.
Photographs may help the cause
Heritage Council address for this is
[color=#0066cc]www.environment.nsw.gov.au/heritageapp/ ... tions.aspx
[/color]
I have seen and enough to be worried
Speak now or fore ever hold your peace
fernhill
Photographs of rotting rolling stock will certainly help, don't get bitter and twisted/personal with KJ and his group in written submissions, just stage the facts that they don't have any undercover storage for rolling stock, and have a dismal heritage conservation management record. However I fear it the minster will take the easy choice and will allow changes.

This also reminds me that Dorrigo and the people who run the museum are still breaking the law and have not been criminally prosecuted under the EPA act for black oiling locomotives for years without any proper oily water collection system, any waste oil that falls to the ground is allowed to run into natural water courses.
If a large corporation sprayed machinery in the open with oil without any proper means to collect excess oil run off no matter how small , they would be shut down (well they can't do that to Dorrigo Smile) and be hit with large fines.
  7006 Locomotive Driver

Photographs of rotting rolling stock will certainly help, don't get bitter and twisted/personal with KJ and his group in written submissions, just stage the facts that they don't have any undercover storage for rolling stock, and have a dismal heritage conservation management record. However I fear it the minster will take the easy choice and will allow changes.

This also reminds me that Dorrigo and the people who run the museum are still breaking the law and have not been criminally prosecuted under the EPA act for black oiling locomotives for years without any proper oily water collection system, any waste oil that falls to the ground is allowed to run into natural water courses.
If a large corporation sprayed machinery in the open with oil without any proper means to collect excess oil run off no matter how small , they would be shut down (well they can't do that to Dorrigo Smile) and be hit with large fines.
allambee

Under the law it is not the EPA but local Council you need to report this too?
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Hate to spoil the party on one thing there.  AFAIK they've been using used cooking oil for about 2 decades or more, rather than mineral oil.
  fernhill Chief Train Controller

Hate to spoil the party on one thing there.  AFAIK they've been using used cooking oil for about 2 decades or more, rather than mineral oil.
Spinner5711
If they are using vegetable oils life about 3 moths in outdoor conditions, animal oils 6-12 months effective life in out door settings

You can submit any comments to the Heritage Council online using the address on the advertisement (see links above)
  Little Toot Beginner

How does this NSW Heritage Dept operate? I went past Tenterfield on the weekend and spoke to someone there and they reckon that State Heritage have prohibited them from adding their mine loco to their permanent collection on the basis that a loco like that never ever ran in the Tenterfield area. Ditto State Heritage don't like their displaying a coal wagon. Probably this might be behind their sudden surge in having farm trucks and tractors now mixed in with what railway stock they have managed to acquire.


I think State Heritage have psyched these poor people out of their mind. Don't think Keith Jones is easily intimidated though. If anything, if he sets his mind to something, there is usually no stopping him. Heaven knows what is going to happen when he dies. I told Tenterfield that when he dies, there will probably be a general dispersal of what is left of the stock at Dorrigo and that they (or those in their elderly bracket still alive) will probably end up with their 33/ 55 or whatever all of a sudden. For tuppence. Companies collapse if there is no clear succession and successors trained in running a company. Dorrigo is incorporated. Even though Keith Jones has in the past made claims that he personally owns some stock, his executors when he dies are unlikely to seek to maintain any such argument and it will be left to whoever is running the company at that time what future direction might be taken. Are there any young people coming through the ranks of Dorrigo who, in 50 years time, might seek to continue the öperations"of the company.

I have been a member of Dorrigo for over a decade at least, but to me it is but a financial contribution dressed up as "membership"ditto the other groups I donate "membership"to. as a limited liability company who cares a stuff if they are technically "trading as insolvent" the corporations law places the liability for trading as insolvent on the board, not the members. members are liable for their contribution upon a winding up and in Dorrigo's case, that stands at $20 (far less than the annual $50 membership)  personally I am more interested in heritage rail in the UK and Germany etc.

I think Keith Jones is being cunning. He wants the 7 locos out of the Hunter and on his land. He will probably do whatever is necessary to ensure the physical transfer occurs, even if the balance purchase price is left outstanding for ever and a day. all that means is that the vendor becomes another creditor, just like all the unsecured loans he obtains from members. upon a winding up, all creditors would only get whatever a liquidator can get for all the stuff on site, and knowing how liquidators operate liquidation sales tend to realise next to nothing, plus $20 from members who haven't skedaddled for the hills by time the winding up occurs. small groups who might want some loco or other and have waited patiently could persuade a liquidator to list items separately with no reserve, so a lot of locos could go for about $50. small groups would need to be able to rustle up cartage as auctions tend to have a clause about clearing purchases off site fairly quickly.

so when I drop in to Tenterfield I merely assure them that if Dorrigo goes under, they might end up with a once in a lifetime chance to pick up some good additions to their limited and rather poor group provided they can get some farmer or other with a semi to get in up the road. ditto everyone else in smaller and impecunious groups.
  Terry Boardman Beginner

Location: Queenscliff NSW
Keith has put out a letter asking for money to purchase the seven 10 class locos at Rothbury - Total cost $630,000. He has struck a time payment plan with the owner and just needs $90,000 deposit to get all seven locos. He claims he needs these to operated on the Dorrigo Line. How many locos do you need to run a heritage train operations? I suppect he will raise the $90,000 but that will push the DSRM debt (Keith calls it a long-term loan) to over $1.1m. It is clear at that level of debt the group is trading insolvent.  
7006

I think the Dorrigo Steam Railway and Museum will survive OK. There has been predictions of doom and gloom ever since it started but it is still there and growing.
  tezza Chief Commissioner

700 members
750 ex members
6 active volunteers
tezza

Correction:

Information recently received indicates that a slight adjustment to the museum membership numbers is required

DSR&M has

450 members
1000 ex members
6 active volunteers
  Salty21 Junior Train Controller

Location: Canberra
Correction:

Information recently received indicates that a slight adjustment to the museum membership numbers is required

DSR&M has

450 members
1000 ex members
6 active volunteers
tezza
Just a little bit of spitballing here just suppose some one had the money and Dorrigo was interested would there be a chance that one of there locomotives could be restored----- Just wondering...................................
  Little Toot Beginner

Correction:

Information recently received indicates that a slight adjustment to the museum membership numbers is required

DSR&M has

450 members
1000 ex members
6 active volunteers
tezza
there is very little point in your continually citing the number or presumed number of ex- members. what you fail to realise is that once you have resigned your membership, you have no legal standing in and about the affairs of the company. you only become yet another member of the public making general observations. only a member has legal standing eg to complain to the Fraud Squad about any conspiracy to defraud the company.

I trust that any deal to buy 7 run down locos for what appears to be an exorbitant price is being conducted at arms length and everything is above board. if it isn't things have a tendency to unravel, usually over a fair period of time, and often people end up in jail. this can sometimes happen with individuals who lack the intelligence and sophistication to distinguish between the affairs of a company as a separate legal entity and their own personal interests.

when a liquidation occurs, members become defunctus deficcio (a play, by the way, on the words "functus offico")- liquidators pay attention only to creditors, in respect of whose interests they act. Liquidators can conduct enquiries into the affairs of the company including public examinations into the directors and so on. They can also have transactions set aside for various reasons. Often criminal proceedings can flow from what is revealed in these examinations or from their enquiries. The event of liquidation may be the first breathe of fresh air that a company has ever seen in its life, as liquidators are and are required to be completely dispassionate and impartial.

if a liquidation does occur, members who rush in and recover their small items "donated" to the company are stealing and the liquidators will involve that part of the police force that handles theft. that includes those who think they have a moral right to recover some property or to sample same, because their unsecured loans remain unpaid and they are unlikely to ever see a cent in dividends.

as you undoubtedly may have gained by now, by way of "blinding insight, the incurring of something like $560,000 (less whatever is accepted as a "deposit") in further debt clearly places a company that has no visible means of income or support save for a revolving door of further member loans and donations (see the Henry Report on closing rorts involving tax deductible "donations") often to pay off existing loans, clearly within the ambit of insolvency. anyone who sits on the board in these circumstances becomes personally liable for the company's debts incurred whilst it trades as insolvent, and could end up losing all their personal assets such as their home. Given the company's lack of a clear external income or revenue base, it may never have ever been anything but insolvent anyway, from the time that the Government required its incorporation before it would advance a taxpayer funded grant. But that is for the liquidators to resolve. There are relation back time limits. The incursion of further debt also relegates an opening to the public back further. It may never open to the public. People are now starting to accept that as a distinct possibility. There is a considerable cost involved in complying with Council's requirements before it can open to the public, let alone running costs, eg the huge whack the insurers take and all the other regulatory requirements take money.

I personally don't care what happens. I like watching disaster movies. They fascinate me. I like watching YouTube uploads of train wrecks (Ünstoppable"- "we ain't a train wreck yet" one hour later into the movie, the bomb goes off). I am financially conservative and appreciate what was told to me by the small Tenterfield group that all they have acquired has actually been funded by the money they take at the door (which, last week, I gratefully parted with $24 in their collection box- ie 4 people X $6). They are financially conservative, like myself, and balance their books. And they are open to the public! wow! and have visible means of support! (a term derived from the old Vagrancy Act)
  tezza Chief Commissioner

.

The incursion of further debt also relegates an opening to the public back further. It may never open to the public. People are now starting to accept that as a distinct possibility.
Little Toot

         The museum is partially open to the public but not  the 7 day a week operation as intended when members wanted it  opened during the Bi centenary  celebrations in 1988.  
          Coach operators are permitted to bus in approximately 3000  people per year to view the collection under guided tour so the museum does produce an income apart from the $3500 per week it raises donations and loans
  Little Toot Beginner

The museum is partially open to the public but not  the 7 day a week operation as intended when members wanted it  opened during the Bi centenary  celebrations in 1988.  
          Coach operators are permitted to bus in approximately 3000  people per year to view the collection under guided tour so the museum does produce an income apart from the $3500 per week it raises donations and loans
tezza
Thank you for that. That is not something that I picked up from the newsletters. Last time I was down there, there did not appear to be any toilet facilities, seeing I had to use the toilet facilities in town (being an ancient geriatric with a regular need to find the nearest toilet from the National Toilet Grid for Australia). Tour groups are pretty rugged lot at times, having seen numerous lines of nitrogen enhancing environmentally friendly bus groups in various country parts of Australia. Good luck to them. I am a member of various bodies both here and overseas so am not totally acquainted with the niceties and developments going on at Dorrigo, apart from what is conveyed in the newsletters, which, regrettably, seem to be endless calls for more money, more money- which I find rather annoying). Maybe they will survive after all, with nice green grass regularly fertilised as well, even though Keith Jones famously once said that the place was not a botanic gardens but a railway museum.
  worldtraveller Locomotive Driver

I would suggest that the honourable Member re-read his DSRM Annual Report Newsletters - the full financial position is explained therein.  Members are welcome to attend the annual general meetings held in Dorrigo and ask any relevant questions of the Board. As to toilets yes this is still to be completed but the necessary 'facilities' are already on site having been acquired a few years ago.  As others have mentioned, there are various Council requirements still to be met as part of their development approvals, including connecting the sewer to the main museum site and building the car park both financially and logistically expensive items. As to the manure mobiles, these have provided valuable long term rental income over many years and have kept the grass down.  Not an unreasonable thing in a rural/farming area and clearly one very visible sources of revenue.
  tezza Chief Commissioner

  connecting the sewer to the main museum site and building the car park both financially and logistically expensive items. .
worldtraveller

   Remember the museum was awarded an $830 000 Bi centennial  Grant that would have had the museum opened 25 years earlier in 1988. Council put a lot of time and effort in winning that grant for the museum and it was subsequently lost
   You would have had your fancy toilet block, sewerage line , car park , traffic lights on the corner and a pie shop to feed the masses.
    Yet here we are , the 40 year anniversary of the "museum" and the "newsletters" are still bludging money
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Remember the museum was awarded an $830 000 Bi centennial  Grant that would have had the museum opened 25 years earlier in 1988. Council put a lot of time and effort in winning that grant for the museum and it was subsequently lost
   You would have had your fancy toilet block, sewerage line , car park , traffic lights on the corner and a pie shop to feed the masses.
    Yet here we are , the 40 year anniversary of the "museum" and the "newsletters" are still bludging money
tezza
Iwould rather see the 10 Class quickly scrapped with a gas axe (and would that matter as there are a number in preservation) than slowly scrapped by neglect up at that train graveyard. To Little Toot, who would you think wind the company up? It is an unusual non-trading company so probably does not have any trading debts in the usual sense. I doubt if too many liquidators would take on such a night mare as its main assets are not all that saleable in the short term. I worked for ASIC as a lawyer/investigator for many years and I have never heard of the term defunctus deficci. I suggest people who use such terms have very little knowledge of modern legal practices. The chances of Dorrigo being wound up are very remote indeed.

Cheers

Rod
  allambee Chief Train Controller

As to toilets yes this is still to be completed but the necessary 'facilities' are already on site having been acquired a few years ago.  As others have mentioned, there are various Council requirements still to be met as part of their development approvals
worldtraveller
Dorrigo did get a NSW state and regional development government grant Rolling Eyes a few years ago to purchase a toilet block.
Its amazing they can still get NSW taxpayer grants with no strings attached.

Why is the Dorrgo museum not on the Federal ACNC register? http://www.acnc.gov.au

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