railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
it was change in the  No. S 103 Friday 22 March 2013  Victoria gazette-In Chapter 3 of the Myki Manual, under the heading ‘Automatic fare calculation’, in the first paragraph under the heading ‘Off-peak discounts’ delete ‘on V/Line services’

so it now - Fares for all journeys in more than two zones on services receive an off-peak discount, except where touch off occurs within zone 1 before 9.00 am Monday to Firday(on non government gazette holiday date) or touch on occurs within zone 1 between 4.00 pm and 6.00 pm on a Monday to Firday(on non government gazette holiday date).
melbtrip
I'm going to wait for myki to get back to me on this one.

What's to say the website wasn't updated after the ticketing manual?

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  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I'm going to wait for myki to get back to me on this one.

What's to say the website wasn't updated after the ticketing manual?
railblogger

I am unconvinced as well. Please let us know what Myki has to say, Railblogger.
I wouldn't rely on most things Melbtrip has to say.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
I'm going to wait for myki to get back to me on this one.

What's to say the website wasn't updated after the ticketing manual?
railblogger

http://www.gazette.vic.gov.au/

Amendments to Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual (myki) gazette S103 - effective 22 March 2013 (PDF) 658 kB ptv website
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
I am unconvinced as well. Please let us know what Myki has to say, Railblogger.
I wouldn't rely on most things Melbtrip has to say.
xxxxlbear

You do not rely on  a legal document( Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983 ) but you reply on  an outsource call centre staff to tell you correct information Rolling Eyes
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
http://www.gazette.vic.gov.au/

Amendments to Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual (myki) gazette S103 - effective 22 March 2013 (PDF) 658 kB ptv website
melbtrip
That gazette is for March 2013. I'm almost certain the website was update after then.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
That gazette is for March 2013. I'm almost certain the website was update after then.
railblogger

if you do not trust me and why not read the legal document yourself then.Wink


No. S 103 Friday 22 March 2013  Victoria gazette-In Chapter 3 of the Myki -Manual, under the heading ‘Automatic fare calculation’, in the first paragraph under the heading ‘Off-peak discounts’ delete ‘on V/Line services’

I give you document number and website - http://www.gazette.vic.gov.au - most changes that deals with transport ticketing goes there and has to be correct.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
You do not rely on  a legal document( Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983 ) but you reply on  an outsource call centre staff to tell you correct information Rolling Eyes
melbtrip
Had a look at the contents of that act. In what part does it explain the off-peak fare rule?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
if you do not trust me and why not read the legal document yourself then.Wink


No. S 103 Friday 22 March 2013  Victoria gazette-In Chapter 3 of the Myki -Manual, under the heading ‘Automatic fare calculation’, in the first paragraph under the heading ‘Off-peak discounts’ delete ‘on V/Line services’

I give you document number and website - http://www.gazette.vic.gov.au - most changes that deals with transport ticketing goes there and has to be correct.
melbtrip
delete 'on V/Line services' does not necessarily mean the rule now applies to all services.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Here is example of a bus will have off-peak tickets under myki - Route 684 bus - Melbourne to Eildon

http://ptv.vic.gov.au/news-and-events/news/myki-is-the-new-ticket-for-the-route-684-bus-effective-monday-17-june/

Melbourne to Eildon (zone 1 to 11 off-peak single fare): $16.38
  dean65 Locomotive Driver

Location: Ballarat
*Fares for all journeys in more than two zones on V/Line services receive a 30% off-peak discount, except where touch off occurs within Zone 1 before 9am on a business day or touch on occurs within Zone 1 between 4pm and 6pm on a business day. Customers must touch on and off to receive an off-peak fare. Excludes fares on metropolitan services.  http://ptv.vic.gov.au/tickets/regional-fares/

That last sentence is worrying me.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
That last sentence is worrying me.
dean65
The last sentence is what I want clarified.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
You do not rely on  a legal document( Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983 ) but you reply on  an outsource call centre staff to tell you correct information Rolling Eyes
melbtrip

No, I dont trust any post that you make here on Railpage. Pure and simple Rolling Eyes
  Lance-Fieldline Train Controller

Location: Stalybridge Station Buffet
Hi there

Looking at the myki fare chart for zones 1-13 peak fares (Southern Cross-Bendigo) produces the following :

Southern Cross-Sunbury 2hr $ 5.92
Sunbury-Bendigo           2hr $17.80
----------------------------------

Total............................2hr $23.72

Southern Cross-Bendigo 2hr $27.00

Difference $3.28

Why is a Z1-13 fare $3.28 more expensive than a Z1+2 & Z2-13 fare?

If I travelled Southern Cross-Sunbury and touched out, then touched in again and travelled Sunbury-Bendigo will I be charged $23.72 or $27.00?

Cheers
Lance
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Hi there

Looking at the myki fare chart for zones 1-13 peak fares (Southern Cross-Bendigo) produces the following :

Southern Cross-Sunbury 2hr $ 5.92
Sunbury-Bendigo           2hr $17.80
----------------------------------

Total............................2hr $23.72

Southern Cross-Bendigo 2hr $27.00

Difference $3.28

Why is a Z1-13 fare $3.28 more expensive than a Z1+2 & Z2-13 fare?

If I travelled Southern Cross-Sunbury and touched out, then touched in again and travelled Sunbury-Bendigo will I be charged $23.72 or $27.00?

Cheers
Lance
Lance-Fieldline
you need two myki's card to make that to work, otherwise with one myki card, it  most likely charge  to you a zone 1 to 13 fare even you touch off and on at Sunbury
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Thanks melbtrip for posting the fare rules, I think I'll trust the fares& ticketing manual too Smile

I've been wondering about the Bendigo-Sunbury-Melbourne trip too. I expect if you managed to touch off then on again at Sunbury, you'd be charged the $27, but this may be difficult to test (you'd have to wait 30s b/w touching on and off, so you probably couldn't jump back on the same train).
You could jump off, touch off one myki, and touch on a second myki, and make it back on your train in time, but would this violate the rule saying you must have only one valid ticket for a trip? I would say probably, jumping off a train at a zone boundary to validate your other metcard was deemed wrong, and this is similar. Of course, you could wait at Sunbury for the next train, and save your $3.28.


After taking my forehead away from my hands, This reply is for jjd76au
Okay, So... From my training, which is quite scratchy now as this was a few years ago...
Your trip from Kilmore East to City will be covered by your pass as established and as far back out to North Geelong, On Touch off at Geelong, You should be charged the difference outside of your pass, Which should only be a 2 Hour Zone 4.
On boarding the Bus (or Coach) to Portarlington, The 2 Hour should still be active for that location - Once you get to Portarlington and touch off, It should make the adjustment to charge you for a 2 Hour Zone 4-through-5. On the return trip later that day, You should get the same, 2 Hour Zone 4-5.
I could be very very wrong on this, as the requirement that a passenger carry a single valid ticket for an entire journey, may void the above statement. Really, The person who would know, would be Revenue.
I hope my explanation is a bit clearer than the above. (I've avoided going into the mess of explaning Peak and Off-Peak, to keep it simple)
brendan03

This kind of trip can't violate the 'single valid ticket' rule, because otherwise someone with a Z1 pass would be charged a Z1+2 2hr every time they went to zone 2.

Now, what about on weekends? Weekends are off-peak, and there's the $3.50 weekend daily cap for Z1/2 travel. So:
Southern Cross-Sunbury 2hr $ 3.50
Sunbury-Bendigo           2hr $12.46
----------------------------------

Total............................2hr $15.96

Southern Cross-Bendigo 2hr $18.90

Difference $2.94.

If you have a Z1 (or Z1-2 for that matter) pass, then the trip to Sunbury should be fully included already. So really you should only be charged $12.46 for the whole journey. Am I right?

What about for the original trip (peak, during week), but you have a Z1-2 pass? Just the Sunbury-Bendigo 2hr $17.80? Or the Southern Cross-Bendigo 2hr $27.00?



And if we here can't work it out (and I include those knowledgable members who are employed within the industry as well) what chance does the average passenger stand of understanding the system and how much a trip costs?  And yes it does matter to quite a lot of people that they know how much a trip will cost before making it.
Gwiwer


While I see your point that it should be clear how much a trip will cost before you take it, please consider that we're talking about combining passes with myki money to get a cheaper fare. In no circumstances will it cost more than the headline amount provided in the fare calculator ([size=2][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://ptv.vic.gov.au/tickets/regional-fares/). It's our instinct to figure out what combinations will give us the cheapest fare, in what sense is it a problem with myki that we can get cheaper fares if we know what we're doing? How's that a bad thing?[/font][/size]
If people can't understand how much their trip will cost, who cares? We're talking about discounts to the headline rate, thanks to the cheapest fare logic. They can find the headline rate using that calculator, knowing that's the most it will cost. If the journey costs less than that, then that's a nice surprise for the person who couldn't figure it out.

It's kind of like getting upset with JB Hi-Fi because you can't figure out how much it will cost to combine your basket of 3-for-2 and 2-for-$20-stickered-DVDs together. If you calculate it, you know you're saving $xx, if you can't, you just know you're getting the biggest discount available.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
At risk of labouring a point there is a fair number of our society (Railpage regulars almost certainly excluded) who do actually want to know the price of a trip from A to B.  They will ask at a ticket office or they will ask a bus or tram driver.  They are probably expecting a straightforward answer in terms of "$4.50 mate" rather than "It won't cost more than "$4.50 but if you do this and that then it might cost less".  Many of us are happy to be able to save a little here and there but we don't ask how much is a cup of coffee and receive a reply to the effect that "It won't be more than $4.50 but do this and pay that first and it can be less".

We here generally have enough understanding of the ticketing systems in use to make best advantage of them.  That isn't true of the average Joe who may not be a regular public transport user or might be one of our very many tourists.

I'll use the London example again as it seems to fit.  New-in-town tourist walks up to the ticket office at Heathrow tube station and asks "How much to Piccadilly?".  There is a fixed-price one-way single-use ticket of £5.50 which is the price he will be quoted in response to that question.  He can have a cheaper trip overall by purchasing a Travelcard or Oystercard (at a higher initial cost but allowing freedom to make further trips under the broadly the same conditions as Myki; off peak the Oyster fare is £3.00 for example) but the question is answered fully and truthfully with a specific statement.  We cannot do that in Melbourne nor anywhere that Myki now operates.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

At risk of labouring a point there is a fair number of our society (Railpage regulars almost certainly excluded) who do actually want to know the price of a trip from A to B.  They will ask at a ticket office or they will ask a bus or tram driver.  They are probably expecting a straightforward answer in terms of "$4.50 mate" rather than "It won't cost more than "$4.50 but if you do this and that then it might cost less".  Many of us are happy to be able to save a little here and there but we don't ask how much is a cup of coffee and receive a reply to the effect that "It won't be more than $4.50 but do this and pay that first and it can be less".

We here generally have enough understanding of the ticketing systems in use to make best advantage of them.  That isn't true of the average Joe who may not be a regular public transport user or might be one of our very many tourists.

I'll use the London example again as it seems to fit.  New-in-town tourist walks up to the ticket office at Heathrow tube station and asks "How much to Piccadilly?".  There is a fixed-price one-way single-use ticket of £5.50 which is the price he will be quoted in response to that question.  He can have a cheaper trip overall by purchasing a Travelcard or Oystercard (at a higher initial cost but allowing freedom to make further trips under the broadly the same conditions as Myki; off peak the Oyster fare is £3.00 for example) but the question is answered fully and truthfully with a specific statement.  We cannot do that in Melbourne nor anywhere that Myki now operates.
Gwiwer

Actually, there is a parallel with coffee: It won't be more than $4.50 but if you show this reusable card every time, the 10th one will be free!

And I don't understand why you think it's different to London in this example. If you ask how much to Bendigo, you'll be told the headline rate, clearly visible on the fare calculator, as $27. You can have a pass loaded for all or part of the journey, which will reduce the cost, or you can travel off-peak. Other advantages over London (and vline paper tickets) are the ability to go there and back on the same ticket (min 4 hrs for Z1-13), and the unlimited travel after the first 2 journeys (the 2 hr into daily rule). Admittedly not a huge benefit for most people, but the savings would outweigh the $6 myki cost in just one day, and such trips/savings may be useful for shorter segments along the line.

Being able to arrive at the station and hop on a VLine train is a massive benefit for many people. Always being charged the best fare will save people money in many situations, such as buying a peak return paper ticket but taking a different (off-peak) train home because they made other plans during the day, or buying an off peak paper ticket and having to line up again to upgrade to a peak (and then possibly missing that train, and getting the next one, which is off-peak anyway!!).
If your travel arrangements change during the day, then avoiding a peak fare you didn't need to pay would more than cover the $6 myki cost, in just one day (for Bendigo return).

If your point is just that in the London example, there's no requirement to buy a separate card, then I concede only if they plan to totally remove VLine paper tickets. Is this the plan? If so it's still a separate issue to the problem of determining your particular fare, and I totally agree there should always be a short term paper ticket option, or at the very least, make them refundable like everywhere else.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
If you are tourist visiting Melbourne, you are probably going to have a myki. It will be a rare tourist indeed who does not travel around Melbourne by public transport, and then decides to go to Ballarat.  So it makes it easier because the tourist can pay their fare pretty much anywhere. We need to get the point where the following occurs:

Conversation with Hotel Concierge:
"Hi, how do I travel to X in regional Victoria"
"You can go to any 7-Eleven and buy a myki card and top it up with $Y and then just touch on and off"
"But I already have a myki"
"Then just top it up before you travel"
"So I don't need a seat reservation or a ticket?"
"Nope, it's just like travelling on any train in Melbourne".
Revenue

This is wrong, you of all people should know that.  Not all V-Line travel can be done with myki; in fact, V-Line now has two completely separate and non-integrated ticketing systems.  Can the concierge explain which services and why or will they leave this as a happy surprise for tourists to find out for themselves when they try to travel to Echuca on a myki?

My experience with tourists/visitors is that once you explain to them they have to part with $6 before they can actually do any travel they usually say "forget about it".  I happened to see some American tourists yesterday at South Yarra station the other day who were extremely unhappy with their $6 (each) memento of Melbourne.  I gather that they were using the train for a single journey so I can fully understand their displeasure.  While I was booking a V-Line ticket they complained loud and long to the staff at the window about the non-returnable nature of their card (the lady on the other side glazed over and didn't respond) and the fact that they were leaving Melbourne tomorrow and would have no use for it again - ever.  No response from the staff member that sold it to her - what are they supposed to say?  Yes, it's an embarrassment.

A friend from interstate who refused to buy a myki for their short stay (and therefore drove their car for their whole visit) witnessed me topping up my card and asked me if the myki machine can print receipts, then why can't it print a receipt/ticket for tourists/casual users as they do in Perth?  My response: Because that would make too much sense.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
This is wrong, you of all people should know that.  Not all V-Line travel can be done with myki; in fact, V-Line now has two completely separate and non-integrated ticketing systems.  Can the concierge explain which services and why or will they leave this as a happy surprise for tourists to find out for themselves when they try to travel to Echuca on a myki?

My experience with tourists/visitors is that once you explain to them they have to part with $6 before they can actually do any travel they usually say "forget about it".  I happened to see some American tourists yesterday at South Yarra station the other day who were extremely unhappy with their $6 (each) memento of Melbourne.  I gather that they were using the train for a single journey so I can fully understand their displeasure.  While I was booking a V-Line ticket they complained loud and long to the staff at the window about the non-returnable nature of their card (the lady on the other side glazed over and didn't respond) and the fact that they were leaving Melbourne tomorrow and would have no use for it again - ever.  No response from the staff member that sold it to her - what are they supposed to say?  Yes, it's an embarrassment.A friend from interstate who refused to buy a myki for their short stay (and therefore drove their car for their whole visit) witnessed me topping up my card and asked me if the myki machine can print receipts, then why can't it print a receipt/ticket for tourists/casual users as they do in Perth?  My response: Because that would make too much sense.
don_dunstan
This is my point exactly, and on ewhich I mentioned here a few times.
I am happy with my Myki, but for the tourist, interstate visitor or Victorian (a local) who may only want to use public transport once in their lifetime, then a $6/3 purchase price for a Myki is totally unfair.
Solution 1: short term tickets!
Solution 2: turn the cost of buying a Myki into a deposit, the Myki card holder gets their money back when they hand their card in to a Myki shop in good condition
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Got a response from PTV regarding the off-peak fare rule. Here is what they said:

Fares for all journeys in more than two zones on V/Line services receive an off-peak discount where touch off occurs within zone1 after 9am or touch on occurs within zone 1 before 4pm or after 6pm Monday to Friday.



The discount for off-peak travel is 30%. Customers who do not touch on and off correctly will be charged a peak fare.



We confirm that there is no off-peak travel for myki greater than 2 zones when not travelling with V/Line services.
PTV
  v-locity Station Master

Location: The Frankston Line
I may have missed something Am i still able to by the standard paper ticket to say Geelong, Ballarat, or Bendigo From a ticket booth at SCS?
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Yes but not for very many more days
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I may have missed something Am i still able to by the standard paper ticket to say Geelong, Ballarat, or Bendigo From a ticket booth at SCS?
v-locity
I believe so.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Depends where you are travelling to.

myki is coming to V/Line.From June 24, 2013 myki will begin to be rolled out across V/Line commuter locations. In this period V/Line paper tickets will be gradually phased out from use within the V/Line commuter locations.

The first phase of this roll-out will be the introduction of myki tickets onto V/Line commuter services. In this phase, people who currently purchase paper single, return, weekly, monthly and date-to-date tickets will be encouraged to migrate to myki.

myki will be introduced on a line-by-line basis on the following dates:
• Seymour line – June 24, 2013 (All stations between and including Melbourne and Seymour)
• Gippsland line – July 8, 2013 (All stations between and including Melbourne and Traralgon)
• Bendigo line - July 17, 2013 (All stations between and including Melbourne and Eaglehawk)
• Ballarat line – July 24, 2013 (All stations between and including Melbourne and Wendouree)
• Geelong line – July 29, 2013 (All stations between and including Melbourne and Marshall)

From 24 September 2013, paper periodical tickets will no longer be available for purchase. Passengers who previously purchased paper periodical tickets will need to switch to myki. You will also be able to continue using your V/Line paper periodical ticket until it expires.

Passengers currently purchasing Single, Daily and Off-Peak tickets should switch to myki money, while those using Weekly, Monthly or Date-to-Date tickets should switch to myki pass.

Paper tickets for single and return service tickets will remain for some time.
myki
Link: V/Line and Myki
*NB my underlining and bolding to highlight relevant points.

Paper tickets will remain for some time, as the last paragraph says.
And paper tickets will need to be bought for Intercity services such as Albury and Warrnambool.
  v-locity Station Master

Location: The Frankston Line
I believe so.
railblogger
XXXXlbear
Link: V/Line and Myki
Paper ticehts will be available for some time, as the last paragraph says.

And paper tickets will need to be bought for Intercity services such as Albury and Warrnambool.

Thanks guys
Mark

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