melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Got a response from PTV regarding the off-peak fare rule. Here is what they said:
railblogger

You did not read the Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983 CONDITIONS UNDER SECTION 220D

Quote- Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983

CONDITIONS UNDER SECTION 220D

I, Jim Betts, Secretary to the Department of Transport, pursuant to section 220D of the Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983, hereby determine and publish in the Government Gazette the following conditions (the 2013 Miscellaneous Amending Conditions – Myki) which amend the conditions under section 220D of the Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983 contained in the Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual (myki) (effective 1 January 2013) published in the Victoria Government Gazette No. S 450 dated Friday 21 December 2012.

The 2013 Miscellaneous Amending Conditions – Myki take effect from and including 22 March 2013.

Dated 22 March 2013

In Chapter 3 of the Myki Manual, under the heading ‘Automatic fare calculation’, in the first paragraph under the heading ‘Off-peak discounts’ delete ‘on V/Line services’ " - http://www.gazette.vic.gov.au/gazette/Gazettes2013/GG2013S103.pdf

MYKI does not care if you travel on V/Line or another service, for example if Metro run  a service to Geelong and you travel on Metro service  from Melbourne and then you should get charge a off-peak fare.

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  MelbourneCity Chief Commissioner

Apologies if this has been discussed.

What would happen if I board an Intercity service with First Class at Bendigo after touching on.
I then sit in the first class carriage.

Presumably the conductor will use his scanner to see that I have touched on, but not paid for the first class upgrade.

Firstly, am I fined for fare evasion, or will I be able to upgrade on the spot?
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Apologies if this has been discussed.

What would happen if I board an Intercity service with First Class at Bendigo after touching on.
I then sit in the first class carriage.

Presumably the conductor will use his scanner to see that I have touched on, but not paid for the first class upgrade.

Firstly, am I fined for fare evasion, or will I be able to upgrade on the spot?
MelbourneCity

First class travel From the 24 June 2013, first class seating will not be available within the commuter service boundary for myki holders. myki ticket holders travelling on long-distance services within the commuter service boundary can obtain a nil value seat reservation V/Net ticket by calling 1800 800 007.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
XXXXlbear
Link: V/Line and Myki
Paper ticehts will be available for some time, as the last paragraph says.

And paper tickets will need to be bought for Intercity services such as Albury and Warrnambool.

Thanks guys
Mark
v-locity
My pleasure Smile
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
You did not read the Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983 CONDITIONS UNDER SECTION 220D

Quote- Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983

CONDITIONS UNDER SECTION 220D

I, Jim Betts, Secretary to the Department of Transport, pursuant to section 220D of the Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983, hereby determine and publish in the Government Gazette the following conditions (the 2013 Miscellaneous Amending Conditions – Myki) which amend the conditions under section 220D of the Transport (Compliance and Miscellaneous) Act 1983 contained in the Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual (myki) (effective 1 January 2013) published in the Victoria Government Gazette No. S 450 dated Friday 21 December 2012.

The 2013 Miscellaneous Amending Conditions – Myki take effect from and including 22 March 2013.

Dated 22 March 2013

In Chapter 3 of the Myki Manual, under the heading ‘Automatic fare calculation’, in the first paragraph under the heading ‘Off-peak discounts’ delete ‘on V/Line services’ " - http://www.gazette.vic.gov.au/gazette/Gazettes2013/GG2013S103.pdf

MYKI does not care if you travel on V/Line or another service, for example if Metro run  a service to Geelong and you travel on Metro service  from Melbourne and then you should get charge a off-peak fare.
melbtrip
That may be true, however, Metro is currently running a metropolitan service.

Look at the fare table. Where does it say off-peak fare apply to metropolitan services?

I believe that you are misunderstanding the off-peak fare rule. By the looks of things it only applies to certain legs of the trip (which is the point I have been trying to make all along). Having said that, the 684 bus may have been counted as a V/Line service it that reply (According to the manual, this is the only bus route in Melbourne not counted as a metropolitan service). It is my understanding that these are the only two bus routes that operate in three or more zones.

And yes, I did read that part of gazette, but that doesn't say it applies to every single mode.
  liron Junior Train Controller

Look at the fare table. Where does it say off-peak fare apply to metropolitan services?
railblogger

It says later on, after the fares table, that off peak fares apply for travel in more than two zones.  Doesn't say regional or metropolitan, just more than two zones, i.e. 3+.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
It says later on, after the fares table, that off peak fares apply for travel in more than two zones.  Doesn't say regional or metropolitan, just more than two zones, i.e. 3+.
liron
There is a table for both metropolitan and regional services.


MYKI does not care if you travel on V/Line or another service, for example if Metro run  a service to Geelong and you travel on Metro service  from Melbourne and then you should get charge a off-peak fare.
melbtrip

Scratch what I just said regarding the quote above. myki knows which modes you used and where/which services you touched on and off. As proof, here is some of my transaction history. Pay particular attention to what is listed in the "Service" and "Description" columns.


Date Time Transaction Type Service Zone Description
14/06/2013 08:05:15 Touch off Tram 1 Melbourne City,Route 70down
14/06/2013 08:00:20 Touch on Tram 1 Melbourne City,Route 70down
14/06/2013 07:58:11 Touch off* Train 1 Flinders Street Station
14/06/2013 06:50:52 Touch on Train 2 Sunbury Station
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
It appears I got mixed up when I said that the off-peak fare only applies to certain legs of your trip. If your trip includes travel on V/Line, the metro/regional town bus travel will be included in the fare like what happens now.

melbtrip, please check your facts before you post next time. I still think you're assuming that 'delete on V/Line services' means that the off-peak discount applies to all trips covering 3 zones or more.

I'm putting my case to rest before I repeat myself.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
Anyone else get this email?

myki auto top up

From 24 June 2013, myki cards will no longer be blocked when an auto top up payment fails. The top up amount will simply be reversed off the myki.


To set up auto top up, or find out more about how changes to auto top up make travelling with myki easier, [color=#222222]click here[/color].


Haven't seen any mention of this so far.

Dave
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I got the same email. I also saw it on the PTV website.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
It appears I got mixed up when I said that the off-peak fare only applies to certain legs of your trip. If your trip includes travel on V/Line, the metro/regional town bus travel will be included in the fare like what happens now.

melbtrip, please check your facts before you post next time. I still think you're assuming that 'delete on V/Line services' means that the off-peak discount applies to all trips covering 3 zones or more.

I'm putting my case to rest before I repeat myself.
railblogger
Here is official rule of off-peak for myki: - Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual (myki) gazette

Off-peak discounts page 22 of the  Victorian fares and ticketing manual (myki)
Fares for all journeys in more than two zones receive an off-peak discount, except where touch off
occurs within Zone 1 before 9am on a business day or touch on occurs within Zone 1 between 4pm
and 6pm on a business day.

The discount for off-peak travel is 30 per cent (this is applied after any concession discount).
Customers who do not touch on and off correctly will be charged a peak fare.
For customers travelling off-peak, the equivalent peak fare contributes toward the Daily cap, even
though they are paying a reduced fare. For example when a full fare customer travels three zones
off-peak, 100 per cent of the standard fare will be counted towards the Daily cap even though only
70 per cent of the standard fare has been paid.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
There is a table for both metropolitan and regional services.



Scratch what I just said regarding the quote above. myki knows which modes you used and where/which services you touched on and off. As proof, here is some of my transaction history. Pay particular attention to what is listed in the "Service" and "Description" columns.


Date Time Transaction Type Service Zone Description
14/06/2013 08:05:15 Touch off Tram 1 Melbourne City,Route 70down
14/06/2013 08:00:20 Touch on Tram 1 Melbourne City,Route 70down
14/06/2013 07:58:11 Touch off* Train 1 Flinders Street Station
14/06/2013 06:50:52 Touch on Train 2 Sunbury Station
railblogger
It does not tell me if you used a Metro train service or a V/Line service to get to Sunbury, you could gone to Riddells Creek and the fares would been same amount and only till you get to Gisborne and then you may get off-peak fares, if you travel in  off-peak times (Melbourne to Gisborne).

You do not have to use V/Line service to get off-peak fares for example if Metro run a service to Gisborne and you travel in off-peak from  Melbourne to Gisborne with a metro service and then you will pay a off-peak fare.

I using it as example and know metro does not run a service to Gisborne, it example if they did and then person took the trip would get off-peak fares.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Here is official rule of off-peak for myki: - Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual (myki) gazette

Off-peak discounts page 22 of the  Victorian fares and ticketing manual (myki)
Fares for all journeys in more than two zones receive an off-peak discount, except where touch off
occurs within Zone 1 before 9am on a business day or touch on occurs within Zone 1 between 4pm
and 6pm on a business day.

The discount for off-peak travel is 30 per cent (this is applied after any concession discount).
Customers who do not touch on and off correctly will be charged a peak fare.
For customers travelling off-peak, the equivalent peak fare contributes toward the Daily cap, even
though they are paying a reduced fare. For example when a full fare customer travels three zones
off-peak, 100 per cent of the standard fare will be counted towards the Daily cap even though only
70 per cent of the standard fare has been paid.
melbtrip
I will not argue any more as I will just be repeating myself. You believe what you want to believe.

I will believe what PTV has told me, and what it says on the website.

If it's false, so be it. It's their problem, not ours.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Here is official rule of off-peak for myki - Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual (myki) gazette

Off-peak discounts page 22 of the  Victorian fares and ticketing manual (myki)
Fares for all journeys in more than two zones receive an off-peak discount, except where touch off
occurs within Zone 1 before 9am on a business day or touch on occurs within Zone 1 between 4pm
and 6pm on a business day.

The discount for off-peak travel is 30 per cent (this is applied after any concession discount).
Customers who do not touch on and off correctly will be charged a peak fare.
For customers travelling off-peak, the equivalent peak fare contributes toward the Daily cap, even
though they are paying a reduced fare. For example when a full fare customer travels three zones
off-peak, 100 per cent of the standard fare will be counted towards the Daily cap even though only
70 per cent of the standard fare has been paid.
melbtrip
I have lived in Australia for all of my 50 years, have a very good grasp of English, but can anyone understand what all that means???
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
I will not argue any more as I will just be repeating myself. You believe what you want to believe.

I will believe what PTV has told me, and what it says on the website.

If it's false, so be it. It's their problem, not ours.
railblogger
This infomation also on thier website too - http://ptv.vic.gov.au/tickets/victorian-fares-and-ticketing-manual/
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
This infomation also on thier website too - http://ptv.vic.gov.au/tickets/victorian-fares-and-ticketing-manual/
melbtrip
I read that. PTV are saying different things so I picked one side and stuck with it the whole way through.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I have stopped debating the issue with Melbtrip, s/he doesn't listen.

It is interesting to note that Myki zones 1/2 fares are NOT published as peak/off peak fares (you dont get an off peak or peak 2 hour ticket....), and neither is Geelong Transit or Bellarine Transit fares....there is just the one type of fare listed per category (ie 2 hour or daily, child, concession. or full fare) - which leads me to believe that there are no peak/off peak fares on services other than V/Line services.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
It is interesting to note that Myki zones 1/2 fares are NOT published as peak/off peak fares

Yet
[img]http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z273/Gwiwer/Other%20stuff/staff_muttley.gif[/img]

Isn't that one of the things Revenue has up his sleeve for when everything else is working nicely?  
[img]http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z273/Gwiwer/Other%20stuff/ce73ce53.gif[/img]
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Is there a special fare for a left arm bowler with red hair,  operating around the wicket at the Kirkstall Lane end, to two slips, a gully, and a right hand Presbyterian batsman?
It's as simple as a lot of other parts of the Myki fiasco.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Is there a special fare for a left arm bowler with red hair,  operating around the wicket at the Kirkstall Lane end, to two slips, a gully, and a right hand Presbyterian batsman?
It's as simple as a lot of other parts of the Myki fiasco.
Valvegear
No.

For the simple reason that there are no right-hand Presbyterian batsmen.  Wink
  Mitty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Hawthorn
So on Monday I was on the first myki service out of Southern Cross up to Seymour.  Heres the story of what happened which I just posted over at Whirlpool:

So here's the travel history from my Seymour trip which finally showed up this evening:


24/06/2013 09:43:18 Touch off Train 1 Southern Cross Station - - -
24/06/2013 08:16:27 Touch on Train 6/7 Seymour Station - - -
24/06/2013 08:14:00 Touch off Train 6/7 Seymour Station - - -
24/06/2013 07:54:42 Touch on Train 6/7 Seymour Station - - -
24/06/2013 07:47:43 Touch off* Train 6/7 Seymour Station - $6.57 $24.85
24/06/2013 06:24:33 Fare Product Sale Train - - - - -
24/06/2013 06:05:48 Touch on Train 1 Southern Cross Station - - -
24/06/2013 06:04:11 Top up myki money Train - - $10.00 - $31.42
24/06/2013 05:57:21 Touch off Train 1 Southern Cross Station - - -
24/06/2013 05:34:20 Touch on Train 1 Hawthorn Station - - -

So, there's a couple of things to discuss: the "Fare Product Sale" is from the Conductors Handheld when he set the Default Fare. Interesting to see it actually shows up.


But more importantly we have the second Touch off and on at Seymour Station at 8:14 and 8:16:27. They weren't at Seymour Station; They were on the Conductors Handheld; the train had already left, and I was most certainly on it.


I didn't mention this previously but when he first checked my card he said it wasn't touched on (all he did was hold the card to his reader) but I definitely touched on at the platform reader (at 7:54:42, after realising the entire town of Seymour was closed), and got on the train to await it's departure at 8:12AM since the train was way warmer than outside. He then manually touched my card on at 8:16:27, I saw him push the "Touch on" button on his screen.


Unless he wasn't in the right screen or mode, but it's actually a tad scary that the hand held can touch you OFF without anyone realising it's doing so.

Guess it was first day teething problems. Find it interesting that the Hand Held can touch you both OFF and ON, and that it says "Seymour Station". Does it get this location from GPS? Or does the Conductor set it?
  liron Junior Train Controller

But more importantly we have the second Touch off and on at Seymour Station at 8:14 and 8:16:27. They weren't at Seymour Station; They were on the Conductors Handheld; the train had already left, and I was most certainly on it.

I didn't mention this previously but when he first checked my card he said it wasn't touched on (all he did was hold the card to his reader) but I definitely touched on at the platform reader (at 7:54:42, after realising the entire town of Seymour was closed), and got on the train to await it's departure at 8:12AM since the train was way warmer than outside. He then manually touched my card on at 8:16:27, I saw him push the "Touch on" button on his screen.

Unless he wasn't in the right screen or mode, but it's actually a tad scary that the hand held can touch you OFF without anyone realising it's doing so.
Guess it was first day teething problems. Find it interesting that the Hand Held can touch you both OFF and ON, and that it says "Seymour Station". Does it get this location from GPS? Or does the Conductor set it?
Mitty
Another interesting thing is that you were only charged $6.57 for the trip to Seymour.  You paid nothing for your zone 1 travel, as it was an early bird trip, yet it was treated as if you had a fully paid up zone 1 2 hour fare, so in Seymour you Myki charged you $3.50 (or $3.51 even) less than what you were supposed to have paid.

EDIT: Another explanation is that there could have been a zone 1 Myki pass active.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Earlybird only applies to Metro trips.  A V/line trip will charge for all zones travelled through at any time.
  liron Junior Train Controller

Earlybird only applies to Metro trips.  A V/line trip will charge for all zones travelled through at any time.
Gwiwer
OK, another possibility is that Mitty had a zone 1 Myki pass, and that is the explanation for the deduction from the fare.
  Mitty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Hawthorn
^Yes that's correct, I have a Zone 1 pass which I use for my normal commute.  The 2 hour zone 1-6 Fare is $10.08, so yes it saved me $3.51 even though a 2 hour zone 1 fare of $3.50 would have made more sense.  Wonder why the extra cent.

Note I also didn't get charged for the trip back because I was still within my original two hours and it was all off-peak.  If there had been something open in Seymour I might have maybe had some breakfast and caught the next train back at 9:14 and paid the extra 2 hours for a full return trip, but there was nothing (not even the cafe in the station).

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