The shape of EMD's to come

 
  GS4 Train Controller

This shot with the cab protection , https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/972086_183937735117309_153071517_n.jpg  , reminds me of the ski jump on Australia's new aircraft carriers.

Will that thing actually protect the crew from several (or many) tonnes of coal/mineral being accidentally dumped on it?  I think it WILL provide an excellent sun shade in hot climates though.  QR's original 2300's had big sun shades ....... lets hope the similarity ends there.


....... it could be worse.  These  http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=438355&nseq=10  with the lop sided cabs remind me of London double decker busses and the drivers cab looking pushed over to one side.

Sponsored advertisement

  fleabag Assistant Commissioner

Location: Perth
My guess with these awninged locos as that the headlights will soon be moved to the front of the unit, above the buffer beam. I reckon there will be irritating flare for the drivers, mounted where they are now.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Ugly and crude looking things . Would have been better off with GT46C-ACEs in metric gauge . Sad day when you have to polish up the 2 end auto on an EMD and teach it to lead long end only ...
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Can someone please provide a link to a press release or article stating the GT46C-ACe and GT42CU-ACe are officially dead as far as products offered by EMD/EDi here? Maybe even an article or press release stating the exact and all terms of this deal?

Would hate to just mindlessly speculate on something there's no hard information on....
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Things can change , if and when imported products turn up we'll see if they meet expectation and if they don't then operators may have little choice other than to order and cough up here .
We have a choice with manufacturing here in Aus , we cost more but a large part of that cost is for reasons beyond local manufacturers control . If we had a choice of sane governments/regulators here then we could manufacture here more affordably for a many of the same reasons , excluding economies of scale in some cases .
Take a closer look at the taxation and energy costs of overseas manufacturers and think again about the local situation . If you buy cheaper OS then you're basically admitting the local systems are failures and you are seeking to avoid them .
There is no denying the fact that we pay more for manufactured goods because our energy and tax costs are artificially inflated and while the politically motivated reasons may make some of you feel warm and gluey most would prefer a more honest and realistic price if given a choice .
For the gluesters - get used to see precious little actually made here .
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

PR/EMD needs scale to drive down cost

Hence the SD70 family for US domestic consumption is now produced (including frames) by Bombardier (as contractor) at Sahagun in Mexico. Muncie only builds short run "off standard" SD70 mainly for export outside of North America. The Muncie plant has three times the floor area of London, and is capable of cranking up through put if required, however Mexico has a lower labor cost (now lower than coastal China)

Australian production was miniscule, and to resurrect Australian models for manufacture in the States, probably not cost effective in view of the numbers that would be ordered. Look how Progress Rail handled the Tasmanian PR22L order, relegated assembly to a repair/rebuild shop at Patterson, in the wilds of rural Georgia

DLW at Varanasi have assembled over 1030 licensed variations of the GT46AC since 1999, they kicked the HP up to 4500, and have shoehorned a 20-710 @ 5500 HP into one prototype (WDG-5)
http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Locos/Diesel/wdg4_wdp4/

London built 30 GT36CW (orange) and HCW (blue) for Algeria on 2007, these used Indian pattern frames/cabs
http://acsoosub.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1038358
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ne/Algeria/diesel/SNTF060DR11SbA3.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ne/Algeria/diesel/SNTF060DR11SbA2.jpg

The North American production of GT variations using a common frame/cab since 2011 include
6 x NG GT38AC for Indonesia (London)
44 x NG GT38AC for Indonesia (Muncie)
6 x SG GT46AC for Gabon (Muncie)
10 x SG GT46ACs for Saudi Arabia (Muncie)
6 x NG GT46ACs for Chile (Muncie)
Plus the NG GT46ACs demonstrator for Progress Rail Brazil

If VL! (Vale) in Brazil order the GT46AC in quantity (as is rumored), production may be moved to the new PR plant at Sete Lagoas.
Only opened in the last 12 months, production is currently BG SD70 for Brazilian domestic consumption
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Very loose assumptions made on the designs for new EMD units. Overseas units have been vastly different save for a few models for ages now.

We should just bugger off our loading gauge/axle loads and just buy US Domestic units.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
We should just bugger off our loading gauge/axle loads and just buy US Domestic units.
speedemon08
I imagine a fair few tunnels and bridges would disagree with you there!
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
I imagine a fair few tunnels and bridges would disagree with you there!
Raichase
Only trivial matters :p

Take the 5020 test up Arlgeden the other day for example....
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Only trivial matters :p

Take the 5020 test up Arlgeden the other day for example....
speedemon08
I'd suggest that weight issues =/= height issues, haha!
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Nope weight doesn't = height/width issue . If a 5000 weighs 185 tonnes why does it fit our loading gauge ? A 90 at 165 odd is probably outline equal to an 82 class . If they can get to Enfield without hitting anything it kind of tells the story . It would be easier to have longer turn tables in the places they still exist and make new locomotives longer to house the greater capacity fuel tank and cooling systems . If United and EDI had the luxury of even 150t gross GT46ACes and C44ACis would be better machines than they are today .
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
Ferronor unit on rails. Looks good with a GR12, maybe not so good mixing with what we're used to.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ferronor_histories/9424182875/
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

Photos of cab interior, does not look all that spacious

[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/971405_1401138706770127_718424009_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1012717_1401138773436787_909269481_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1001738_1401138813436783_1844027000_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/944766_1401138826770115_639741732_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1098258_1401138866770111_1441154785_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/73566_1401138883436776_977097950_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/531814_1401138726770125_37125673_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]

4605 was on trials Monday/Tuesday

[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1006328_1401138256770172_1828964294_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/998073_1401137976770200_1911299083_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#0000ff][size=3][font=Calibri]https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1013213_1400838963466768_519968982_n.jpg[/font][/size][/color]

Ferronor owns its own track, so operates free of Government humbug, locomotives will be in service with a minimum delay

  piepants Chief Train Controller

Location: Newcastle
Can someone please provide a link to a press release or article stating the GT46C-ACe and GT42CU-ACe are officially dead as far as products offered by EMD/EDi here? Maybe even an article or press release stating the exact and all terms of this deal?

Would hate to just mindlessly speculate on something there's no hard information on....
GT46C-ACe
Here's an article:  http://www.highgrade.net/article/2012-06-21/Downer_pulls_out_of_loco_construction_for_imports

I can tell you for sure there will not be another locomotive built at Cardiff. The areas of the workshop where they were built have been retooled for work on passenger cars. And there's also the issue of 5 LDP units sitting in the yard which have been waiting for a buyer for months...
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Here's an article:  http://www.highgrade.net/article/2012-06-21/Downer_pulls_out_of_loco_construction_for_imports

I can tell you for sure there will not be another locomotive built at Cardiff. The areas of the workshop where they were built have been retooled for work on passenger cars. And there's also the issue of 5 LDP units sitting in the yard which have been waiting for a buyer for months...
piepants
That just says EDI/Downer is dead, not the models. The models may have been sold to Cat/Progress Rail.

I expect the new locomotives to be similar to the ones above but with Aussie spec radial bogies and cab (and the odds and ends)
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Seems more reasonable, doubt our crews would enjoy those small cabs after what the modern stuff has offered them....
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p
Do the NREC 1100 class locos or the Watco CBH/CM class locos match any other export units for other markets by those manufacturers?

Does anyone have the dimensions of these Ferronor locos? ie: isn't the GR12 about the same height as a flat top T? The hood of the Ferrornor unit isn't much higher and the loco looks longer than the EDI GT46ACe's. Is it even suitable for local operations?

I would suggest that until an operator in Australia places an order for a new EMD locomotive and we see what it looks like, all this is just guessing...
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

This is the spec sheet for the GT38AC
http://www.progressrail.com/docs/gt-38-ac-web.pdf

The GT38AC, GT42AC and GT46AC, advertised by PR/EMD in the international rail trade magazines appear to have a similar cross section, only the length alters
Refer page 27 http://content.yudu.com/A2bpac/IRJAug13/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.railjournal.com%2Findex.php%2Fstatic%2Firj-digital-edition.html

Photo of GT46ACs towed by GL12
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/733751_184947998349616_428838520_n.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ferronor_histories/9424182875/sizes/h/in/photostream/

Ferronor 323 is a U9C rebuilt with a 12-645
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/547399_184947955016287_1838656344_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/554005_184947875016295_110410345_n.jpg

So the type will fit within the ARTC loading gauge

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/cs-america/single-view/view/ferronor-buys-emd-locomotives.html
Note that the type is available with steering bogies (as fitted to the Ferronor order)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1000312_184947671682982_1616373793_n.jpg

PR/EMD are promoting this type hard on the international market, Brazilian subsidiary MGE are offering a slightly shorter version of the GT38AC, a spec sheet was released at an exhibition in Sao Paulo last year. This variation geared at 92:15 is aimed specifically at Andean operators (to altitude of 4000 meters), with this gearing more than 2000HP is not required

[img]http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6809/vbfn.png[/img]

The 10 sold to SRO appear to have a different long hood, however this is due to the Saudi spec ("camel hump") aircleaner being built in, rather than tacked on the top as usually occurs with Saudi locos
http://static.railpage.com.au/image_resize.php?base64_args=YToyOntzOjM6InVybCI7czo2MjoiaHR0cDovL2Zhcm05LnN0YXRpY2ZsaWNrci5jb20vODU0NC84OTM4NDI3ODY4XzYxYzJmYjlkNWNfYi5qcGciO3M6NToid2lkdGgiO2k6NjQwO30=
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
All well and good but we still don't know what will be offered for our market, that is, unless you work for EMD/Downer/PR jmt?
  M636C Minister for Railways

All well and good but we still don't know what will be offered for our market, that is, unless you work for EMD/Downer/PR jmt?
GT46C-ACe

Isn't the new Tasmanian loco a clue?

It looks just like a Downer loco, (a scaled down GT42CU AC) but is built by Progress with a Caterpillar engine.

I'd expect the Progress will continue to use the designs they got from Downer for any locos they build for Australia.

But when CSR get the bugs out of the SDA1, there may well be more of them too. But it is a special design for Australia, not a standard export unit.

M636C
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
All well and good but we still don't know what will be offered for our market, that is, unless you work for EMD/Downer/PR jmt?
GT46C-ACe
That's assuming that they still see a serious market in Australia. As already stated, there are five LDP's waiting for a buyer, reportedly Downer Rail are getting out of the leasing business, as it was never really a core part of their business anyway. With Chinese and USA imports, as well as the success of the C44 model(s), it seems EDI really only hold the upper hand on narrow gauge stuff, at the moment (the 4100/83/GWU model doesn't seem to HAVE a competitor).

I'm just thinking "aloud" here, not really anything serious, but I do wonder if they will bother to bid for standard gauge loco contracts in the future, or just move on to other things?
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

That's assuming that they still see a serious market in Australia. As already stated, there are five LDP's waiting for a buyer, reportedly Downer Rail are getting out of the leasing business, as it was never really a core part of their business anyway. With Chinese and USA imports, as well as the success of the C44 model(s), it seems EDI really only hold the upper hand on narrow gauge stuff, at the moment (the 4100/83/GWU model doesn't seem to HAVE a competitor).

I'm just thinking "aloud" here, not really anything serious, but I do wonder if they will bother to bid for standard gauge loco contracts in the future, or just move on to other things?
Raichase
Don't underestimate the importance of the narrow gauge market in this debate - nearly 190 GT42CU-AC have been built during a period when Goninans and Downer combined produced just under 170 standard gauge units. EMD knows where it holds market share, so whatever 'export' products are sold into Australia, their use in non-standard gauge applications will probably shape the designs they sell here.
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

What seems to have escaped everyone's attention is the little matter of price

There is no way Downer would have exited local assembly if they were price competitive, and could continue to manufacture here with an acceptable profit margin. Feedback from their customer base must have indicated that a lower cost was required. and there was resistance by buyers to the price level of Australian assembled product (particularly in SG), hence their decision to source overseas

What must be considered is that if the market is becoming so cost sensitive (import of cheap Chinese product of doubtful reliability), will the punters be prepared to pay a premium to have Downer's designs manufactured overseas, compared to cheaper off the shelf offerings.

Wabtec/MPI are enjoying success at the moment with their "international model", which employs a Cummins prime mover.
Cummins are probably 12 months out from releasing their QSK95 (up to 4200HP in V-16 form), which will take on the MTU 20-4000
http://cumminsengines.com/uploads/docs/4087269.pdf

It was a courageous decision by GE/UGL to continue with the (narrow gauge) development of the PowerHaul here. A NG GT46ACs will have a 750HP advantage, and could come in at under 130 tonnes, so acceptable for the Central Qld coal network. Should we assume that the P616 is a cheap motor to produce, inline with the high speed offerings from Cat, Cummins and MTU, so GE see a price advantage?

UGL will only persist with assembly in Australia as long as the C44 family continues to sell. What must be worrying from their employees perspective is the success of the GE/Transnet JV in South Africa, a country with a wage structure now similar to coastal China. In the last 2 years this JV has assembled 133 locos, and has recently purchased a further 53 kits from GE in the USA to cover orders from Anglo-American, CFM in Mozambique, and the Angolan Govt. A winner of the recently closed tender for 465 diesels for Transnet (required to be assembled in SA with a high local content) is expected to be announced at the end of this year. 18 months ago it was widely reported in the South African press that Aurizon and Transnet were negotiating a new locomotive supply venture, based on assembly of GE components in Pretoria. Is this proposed venture dead?
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
What's to stop a Muncie/Mexico built GT42CU-ACe or GT46C-ACe being cheaper than local builds? Labor is cheaper which is the big factor so I'm at a loss as to why they couldn't be cheaper than the models that were built here....

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.