NSWGR Z27 Class tenders

 
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Does anyone know what became of the original tenders fitted to the G, later 27 class engines & why? They look to've been of small capacity but fairly useful nonetheless.

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  1210_5910 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Over the Hills & far away...
Does anyone know what became of the original tenders fitted to the G, later 27 class engines & why? They look to've been of small capacity but fairly useful nonetheless.
The railway dog
Hi Railway Dog,

I'm going to take a stab and say that they were either:

a) Scraped and replaced with D50 class tenders
b) Converted into D50 tenders

Hope this helps a little, and happy to be corrected.

K 8)
  a6et Minister for Railways

The question really is what type of tender were they equipped with originally?  I would be interested to see a photo of that type of tender that is implied here.

As ex PWD engines taken over by the NSWGR a fair while back, I have not seen photo's of them with other than the 3650gal tender they were fitted with when allocated to Narrabri West.

Its therefore likely depending on the type of tender used early in the piece were totally unsuitable for the longer distance work that these engines were assigned to work when at the West.  When they were taken over by the NSWGR they were used in other areas of the state, & on construction trains eg the Tumbarumba line, which often meant coal supplies were provided at sites along the construction areas, so a smaller tender would have been possibly used, similar I would suggest to what was supplied to the 24/25cl.

When allocated to the North Coast they were found to be unsuitable for that working on the tight curves, & deemed suitable for straight & light branch line use, a reason why they frequented the North West area, with the larger tenders.
  1210_5910 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Over the Hills & far away...
The question really is what type of tender were they equipped with originally?  I would be interested to see a photo of that type of tender that is implied here.

As ex PWD engines taken over by the NSWGR a fair while back, I have not seen photo's of them with other than the 3650gal tender they were fitted with when allocated to Narrabri West.

Its therefore likely depending on the type of tender used early in the piece were totally unsuitable for the longer distance work that these engines were assigned to work when at the West.  When they were taken over by the NSWGR they were used in other areas of the state, & on construction trains eg the Tumbarumba line, which often meant coal supplies were provided at sites along the construction areas, so a smaller tender would have been possibly used, similar I would suggest to what was supplied to the 24/25cl.

When allocated to the North Coast they were found to be unsuitable for that working on the tight curves, & deemed suitable for straight & light branch line use, a reason why they frequented the North West area, with the larger tenders.
a6et
Hi A6ET

Here is a photo from pre 1924 displaying the original tender. You can see by this photo that if we compare it to the 3650gal tender (a.k.a. What I've called the D50 tender), you can see why I think the original tenders have been altered into 3650gal tenders.

[img]http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/Kevonator412/KGrHqVHJEwE91576-JBPkNiOH3260_32_zpsa9dd2867.jpg[/img]



Out of interest from a modelling perspective I think one could fairly easily convert a 3650gal tender into an old Z27 tender..... Some food for thought anyone? Very Happy

P.S. I do NOT own or claim to own either of these photos. All rights go to their respectful owners. These photos have been put here to help clarify some points of interest in this discussion ONLY.

Thanks

K 8)
  1210_5910 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Over the Hills & far away...
Bloody hell... The original tenders that the 27 were delivered with were not rebuilt as 3650 gallon tenders! The 27's as delivered were fitted with a smaller tender and a different boiler, but as their government careers progressed, they ended up with 25 class type boilers while their original tenders were totally replaced with the 3650 gallon type. As can be seen from the photographs, the original tenders are similar to the Baldwin designs right down to the bogies while the much longer and larger 3650 gallon tenders are of a different design.

There are photographs in existence of 27 class locomotives as re-boilered with 25 class boilers but still fitted with their original tenders which would suggest that they ran with them for quite a while. However, I personally haven't seen any photographic evidence to suggest that the original 27 class tenders went anywhere other than scrap once they were replaced by the 3650 gallon type.
The_trolley
Hi Trolley

I personally only came to that conclusion about the tenders just going off photographs. I've never seen any plans, measurements, etc. of the old tenders that I could compare with the 3650gal tenders, hence why I said what I said above. Another reason I came to that conclusion was the fact that the NSWGR workshops rebuilt many things and loco's during it's time (as you've mentioned above the 27's were indeed rebuilt to take Z25 boilers), therefore from a first glance I assumed that the tenders were simply rebuilt.

Out of chance & curiosity, do you have any measurements or details about the original tenders vs. the 3650gal tenders? You've got me interested now. Smile

Cheers

K 8)
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
1210-5910,

You do no better at this point in time to make reference to Issue 28 of Byways of Steam by Eveleigh Press. (Recently released and still readily available)

Feature article is the Loco Depots of Narrabri West and Moree by Ray Love, many photos of the 27 class working in the northwest and a small appendix article detailing the 27 class locos themselves from PWD thru to Preservation, am willing to stand corrected but pictures of their original tenders are included.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Catchpoint
  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Thanks for the various viewpoints folks.
The decision to base these locos in the northwest was made early on because of their dislike of sharp curvature, as detailed here. And 50 class tenders would've been available from early scrappings. But the originals seem to've just vanished, & I'd have thought they could've been used behind the 30Ts, for example, or even 4-4-0s. Bogie vehicles in relatively new condition, much better than the ancient Baldwin tenders being inflicted on the 30 Class conversions. Obviously the NSWGR thought differently but it'd be nice to know why.
  a6et Minister for Railways

1210-5910,

You do no better at this point in time to make reference to Issue 28 of Byways of Steam by Eveleigh Press. (Recently released and still readily available)

Feature article is the Loco Depots of Narrabri West and Moree by Ray Love, many photos of the 27 class working in the northwest and a small appendix article detailing the 27 class locos themselves from PWD thru to Preservation, am willing to stand corrected but pictures of their original tenders are included.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Catchpoint
catchpoint

There is one photo in the book showing 2708 outside Eveliegh shops, the caption says the tender is as per original fitted, being a unique style including bogies, it is of the same type that is shown by 1210_5810.

From what I can see of that photo, & the one in Byways, I would suggest its almost a hybrid type somewhere between some of the Baldwyn tenders that has solid plated hungry boards as seen on some of them.  Likewise the rivet line along the side of the tender which shows the angle of the coal plate, is also distinctly different to that of a D50/3650gal tender. Likewise the bogies under that tender are similar to those of the Baldwyn tenders, but the main frame appears different.

Give that the 27cl came into NSWGR ownership I would doubt very much that the original tenders would have been modified to the extent that would convert an original tender into that of a more standard D50 type, given that many of those tenders had become surplus over the years with the Wampu, & later Turret tenders being available.

Remember that the 53, & early 55cl arrived with new built 3650 tenders which were in many cases replaced with the newer Wampu which made them spare.  Rather than a rebuild or conversion they would have simply replaced the originals as they became life expired.
  a6et Minister for Railways

In looking at Grunbachs book on NSW steam loco's, in the appendix section it makes mention of 3 different types of tenders, 1: each being of 8 wheels indicating bogie types, the first had a 5.10 ton capacity, the 2nd type with 8 ton capacity & the 3rd ex D50 3650gal tender with 9.10 ton capacity.

While this would perhaps answer the question that the photo's shown here which is from Grunbach's book & in the Byways book would suggest that its likely the 2nd variant rather than the first.  It is likely to have been a rebuild of the original with the increase of coal capacity of 3 odd tons, as the data shows that the water capacity of the original & then the rebuild is the same that being 2150gallons rather than the 3650 of the 3rd type D50.

The increased water capacity would have been a significant factor in the replacement of the old tenders, especially with steam working the branches out of Narrabri West.
  M636C Minister for Railways



[img]http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/Kevonator412/KGrHqVHJEwE91576-JBPkNiOH3260_32_zpsa9dd2867.jpg[/img]

1210_5910

On page 84 of "Century of Locomotives" there is a 1913 builder's photo of an unidentified G/27 class showing the original tender. It is the same as that illustrated earlier in this thread, but lacking the "hungry boards" added to increase the coal capacity.

What happened to the old tenders would depend upon when the exchange took place.

The conversion of 30T class locomotives used up all the spare tenders in the 1928-1933 period. I don't think any 30T class received 3650 gallon tenders on conversion, although many seem to have had six wheel 32 class tenders, Baldwin tenders and rebuilt 16 class tenders.

The 3650 gallon tenders only became available for 30T class locomotives with the post war replacement with Turret tenders, and I expect that the 27 class only received new tenders about that time. If that is the case, I expect the 27 class tenders were scrapped along with many of the older tenders from 30T class.

M636C

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