Ahhh, that good old Australian tradition of "Changing Trains" re-lives again!

But seriously, electrifying to Dry Creek makes sense as it saves the embarassment of having the brand new Electric Railcars being hauled there by ageing diesel locos!

Changing trains in suburban areas in Australia is nothing compared to Metro based networks where trains pretty much all shuttle on he same line.

Re: Dry Creek DEL hauled. This "embarrassment" hasn't slowed the Melbourne system hauling new sparks with old locos to Ballart

Just to add further to posts by steam4ian and davidpeters on page 2 of this thread.
Have been working at the new RAH and SAHMRI sites in the city for a few weeks and I had a chance to have a good look at the north and south railcar sidings in the ARS yard this morning.
As davidpeters said the north sidings are all in place and being used for railcar storage for use in peak periods. The north siding branches into 2 as does the south siding but it's obviously much longer than the south siding.
I did notice though that there is no infrastructure in place to carry any cables over/along either north or south sidings.

Yet........

I did notice though that there is no infrastructure in place to carry any cables over/along either north or south sidings.

If there was no budget for it previously, it won't exist!

If there was no budget for it previously, it won't exist!

Like all government entities, Adelaide Metro/TransportSA(public transport division) have pocket change to spend on whatever they want. Worse case scenario they have to grab some money out of the maintenance budget.

The north and south sidings are easily accessed and it wouldn't be disruptive to close them to string up a few poles and some wires. Until electric trains are actually running into Adelaide there is no pressing need to do this work.

Why do you think the suburban lines will swap over?

I can think of four reasons to put it in the middle with the Gawler tracks staying on the easternmost side...

1. The angle of the underpass entrance on the city end would be the same regardless of whether the underpass is built with one track or three over the top.

2. The easternmost option would leave the OH line with a shorter distance to change level between the bridge and the point where it would turn left towards Bowden.

3. The descent into the underpass would be safer in the centre of the corridor, being further away from any threat of objects being lobbed in by either vandals or branches falling from trees near the corridor edge.

4. Why build an underpass to take three tracks on top when you could do it for only one?


Either way, I'm sure there would be the chance for some track repairs to be done on the track south of the bridge during any phase of underpass construction in which they are left idle.

JAP it has been stated that the North And Outer Harbor lines will swap places this will allow a bit more length to go under the current tracks at the moment. The North line and the standard gauge will both be side by side and pass over the Outer Harbor lines similar to what is being done at Goodwood. The grade on the Outer Harbor line will have to be able to be of a length and grade suitable for diesel operation for a long time as I doubt it will be electrified any time soon.

Also swapping them over gets rid of a bit of a problem with the Torrens Bridge the current North line bridge is too low but the Outer Harbor line bridge is not as it has nothing over the top of it to interfere or arc out in any case.

I'm going to guess and say the govt has run the numbers noting that it has an oversized fleet of sparks for the south line and an aging and thirsty 2000 class + a few logistical issues with the sparks and getting access to stabling yards efficiently.

So they decided a few km of wires will enable sparks to access the Dry Creek yard and potential allow a inner north shuttle to give something for those extra sparks to do. Thus enabling 2000 class to be 100% retired and the Gawler services to save a few stops and hence travel time, thus making up for the loss of sparking and saving some fuel with a few less stops per trip.

All up pulled some operating cost out of TA and generated a few political brownie points. By the time the project is complete, extension to Gawler is likely to be announced. Such that cutting of the ribbon to Dry Creek also sees the announcement of Gawler.

I'm going to guess and say the govt has run the numbers noting that it has an oversized fleet of sparks for the south line and an aging and thirsty 2000 class + ... Thus enabling 2000 class to be 100% retired ...

They don't have a massive oversupply of electric units on order. Switching to a more intensive schedule during the peaks could have up to about 16-18 out of the 22 units in service at a time, which leaves only 4-6 not in use. That's not a huge oversupply, as two would be used as hot spares on standby at Seaford Meadows and Adelaide, one or two more ini the shop having preventative or remedial maintenance work, and any left over could be used to provide double unit consists for extra capacity on the main peak services arriving at Adelaide between 8:20 and 8:40 and departing between 5:10 and 5:30.

The Jumbos shouldn't come into it, they can be 100% retired as soon as the full Seaford/Tonsley service is operated by EMUs regardless of whether the EMUs work the local stoppers on the Gawler line - even the current Noarlunga/Tonsley timetable cannot be fully covered by just the Jumbos, let alone an enhanced timetable. As well as retiring the Jumbos, the EMUs will allow 3000/3100 cars to be cascaded to the other lines for frequency or capacity to be enhanced even without the Jumbos.

My understanding was that the Jumbos are massively thirsty, especially with the frequent stop/starting.  That was an additional reason to get the network electrified, or at least partially, so the Jumbos can be retired.  Does anyone have any opinions or info about what will happen to them: Would they be a working proposition to anyone (either domestically or internationally) or will they be scrapped?

EDIT: I know there's already a thread specifically about the future of the Jumbos but it hasn't been active for a while.  And it's only a small digression from the Gawler electrification!

My understanding was that the Jumbos are massively thirsty, especially with the frequent stop/starting.  That was an additional reason to get the network electrified, or at least partially, so the Jumbos can be retired.  Does anyone have any opinions or info about what will happen to them: Would they be a working proposition to anyone (either domestically or internationally) or will they be scrapped?

Well an educated guess would be that they will be put up for tender.
Whether it be an other operator or a scrap merchant is yet to be seen.
Honestly, who needs any second hand, life expired, BG railcar sets in Australia?

Well an educated guess would be that they will be put up for tender.
Whether it be an other operator or a scrap merchant is yet to be seen.
Honestly, who needs any second hand, life expired, BG railcar sets in Australia?

Wich accroding to above posts cannot be used under the wires in Adelaide so of very limited use in Adelaide now and even less so with further spark roll out.

Can they be used under the 1500VDC wires in Melbourne?

Can they be used under the 1500VDC wires in Melbourne?

Why would Victorians be interested in accepting life-expired DMUs from Adelaide? They are pensioning off old coaches and locos, not reintroducing them.

Why would Victorians be interested in accepting life-expired DMUs from Adelaide? They are pensioning off old coaches and locos, not reintroducing them.

The only use I could see for them over here would be V-Line short-haul routes like Bacchus Marsh, Seymour and Warragul.  The fuel economy would be much better on those longer runs but I'm not sure (given they are getting on a bit) if the mechanics would be sound/economic.

They tried to use the ex-AN Bluebirds in the 1990's for the same purpose but the acceleration was too slow for them so they sent them back.

We're talking about at least 18 months time before the wires go up to Dry Creek so Jumbos will be around for a while yet.

Don

I cordially suggest you read the lips of a few of those here who have some knowledge of the topic. I summarise the expert comments below.

Electrification to Dry Creek will not reduce the need for DMUs in any form on non electrified lines.

Electrification to Dry Creek may reduce the service range of the 2000s to the Port line only due to clearances with the overhead. Their service might be totally restricted by the electrified system within the ARS tracks; read Power ON, 2000s OFF.

There will be plenty of 4000 EMUs to service the Seaford and Tonsley lines without DMUs.

It is unlikely passengers will be carried by 4000 EMUs accessing Dry Creek.

An all stops to Dry Creek will not have a lot of patronage. Even in days of yore a single 400 RH sufficed and before that a Brill 55 PRM. It is not worth running a 3 car 4000 EMU for that loading.

From my experience, even when new, the 2000s were slower accelerating than a Red Hen and slower that a 3000 DEMU.

Regards
Ian

From my experience, even when new, the 2000s were slower accelerating than a Red Hen and slower that a 3000 DEMU.

I certainly recall thinking as a kid/early teen the 'new super trains' were not that super compared to the red hens. I used to 'miss' my train if it were a jumbo set and catch the next red hen set in the mistaken 10 year old belief that I got home quicker by doing so. Then back in the day I also felt much more of a risk taker (and not due to the ride quality) half hanging out the door of a red hen, than I did when I'd do the same on a jumbo set. The sensation of the red hens provided much more fun!

I noticed there has been talk the past week or so about fast tracking the entire electrification of the Gawler line and DPTI are also considering running passenger electric services from Adelaide to Dry Creek. I think it was pointed out somewhere there is an additional 70 million dollars in funds for this to occur so its very likely IMO electric services will be extended to at least Mawson Lakes.

It's coming from the department of "what shall we do with these EMUs" of course. With the Belair line experiment showing the system and staff aren't capable of delivering an intense service, there's going to be a fair few of them sitting around doing not much if the latest experiments in "build it and they will come" are as successful as all the others over time and doubled consists are not warranted (or somebody forgot to specify SDO for all the short platforms).

With the Belair line experiment showing the system and staff aren't capable of delivering an intense service, ).

Not the operational staff... Not a whole lot we can do with one arm tied behind our backs...

Not the operational staff... Not a whole lot we can do with one arm tied behind our backs...

That's why you have a union to voice your concerns

I noticed there has been talk the past week or so about fast tracking the entire electrification of the Gawler line and DPTI are also considering running passenger electric services from Adelaide to Dry Creek. I think it was pointed out somewhere there is an additional 70 million dollars in funds for this to occur so its very likely IMO electric services will be extended to at least Mawson Lakes.

I saw the comment about the Fed's $70m and I also saw the article that the Mayors along the Gawler Line are calling for the State/Federal governments to fund and finish the electrification of the Gawler Line, especially when the Mayor of Playford (Elizabeth) is the Federal Liberal candidate.

WONDER WHAT TONY ABBOTT WILL SAY WHEN HE HEARS ABOUT IT, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE (TONY) IS OUT THERE SAYING --- THE LIBERALS WILL NOT FUND SUBURBAN RAIL.

....as expected and as usual Inspector....you're spot on the "pulse".

I saw the comment about the Fed's $70m and I also saw the article that the Mayors along the Gawler Line are calling for the State/Federal governments to fund and finish the electrification of the Gawler Line, especially when the Mayor of Playford (Elizabeth) is the Federal Liberal candidate.

WONDER WHAT TONY ABBOTT WILL SAY WHEN HE HEARS ABOUT IT, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE (TONY) IS OUT THERE SAYING --- THE LIBERALS WILL NOT FUND SUBURBAN RAIL.

Yeah, because State and Commonwealth Labor have totally funded it haven't they? Oh that's right, they'd be the ones that canned it because they couldn't afford it, even when though they borrowed 12 Billion Dollars between May and the end of July...

....as expected and as usual Inspector....you're spot on the "pulse".

As usual? Given flatlining around the Belair closure and the clearances at Nairne you will have to forgive me if I defer to taking my own pulse...

I saw the comment about the Fed's $70m and I also saw the article that the Mayors along the Gawler Line are calling for the State/Federal governments to fund and finish the electrification of the Gawler Line, especially when the Mayor of Playford (Elizabeth) is the Federal Liberal candidate.

WONDER WHAT TONY ABBOTT WILL SAY WHEN HE HEARS ABOUT IT, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE (TONY) IS OUT THERE SAYING --- THE LIBERALS WILL NOT FUND SUBURBAN RAIL.

Same sort of noises coming out of the Mayor for Noarlunga about extending the line to Aldinga, anyone want to tell these trainee politicians (that's what most council members are) that they are wasting their time on Tony Abbott. You can't get blood out of a stone.

I can't see why said mayors can't come out publicly and state "if you want trains don't vote liberal". Obvious reason for the Mayor of Playford.

Does this mean when Rudd comes to town (Adelaide) he going to announce the extra funding for it.