The shape of EMD's to come

 
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Well locomotive manufacture in Australia can be made cheaper but you have to ditch all the BS that makes energy and heavy engineering expensive . Price these same things OS then go figure why they do it cheaper . We don't have to make things expensive for ourselves but while ever the trendy idealists insist on raping us for their financial failings things will never change .

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  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Well locomotive manufacture in Australia can be made cheaper but you have to ditch all the BS that makes energy and heavy engineering expensive . Price these same things OS then go figure why they do it cheaper . We don't have to make things expensive for ourselves but while ever the trendy idealists insist on raping us for their financial failings things will never change .
BDA

Why bother.

Ditch those safety systems whilst you're at it. Let's ignore the high $A for the last few years and our relatively high labour costs.
We now have private companies buying them not NFP guvmnt ones so there's less $$$ fat to go around. Don't expect to see another 81, 82 or NR size order!

P.S. Whilst we're looking to pin the blame, imagine how much more profitable our rail operators could be if they could source crew from overseas. More money to spend on Aussie built loco's Wink
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Why bother.

P.S. Whilst we're looking to pin the blame, imagine how much more profitable our rail operators could be if they could source crew from overseas. More money to spend on Aussie built loco's Wink
cootanee
Good call - lucky WPG Resources was sold to Arrium before rail operations commenced, Because that is exactly (457 visas) what was being considered........silly me....of course the locos weren't going to be built here either.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Some railways here do have people who don't otherwise live in Australia . They cost a bit more than we do .
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Edit function not working .

It's not about safety systems it's about the Socialists pretending to be green and punishing us over the price of electrical energy and fuel . They know we have no alternatives and the ship heads know wind solar tide does work in the proportions needed .
Expensive energy means expensive steel and aluminium and the means to fabricate them . To buy a finished product from somewhere else means they used affordable read cheaper means of achieving the same thing .
Do brain dead morons think it's acceptable to save a buck by having their unthinkable happening somewhere OS out of sight ? Think we're going to lead the world by being holier than thou - who just go ahead and do it the practical way anyhow ?
More unemployment when manufacturing we can easily do here goes OS , that's got to be real good hasn't it . Fewer working harder to support a growing group of unemployed because materials and the means to make something from them is too expensive read uncompetitive . And the green jobs - never saw the light of day did they ?
We deserve to be burnt buying new locomotives , we don't do things the easy way loading gauge or axle load wise . We continue to be a small unique expensive market and our state and federal governments have little interest in rail transport . Throw a heap of BS taxes on rail whilst subsidising road and it's a wonder any non pass non bulk rail still exists .
It's all the fault of the conservatives and especially train crews - the route of all economic evil ...
  Shacks Ghanzel

Location: Sir Big Lens of the Distant Upper Hunter
Seems more reasonable, doubt our crews would enjoy those small cabs after what the modern stuff has offered them....
GT46C-ACe
Our modern loco's might have large cabs, they they are that full of crap there is not much room at all really, things like 2nd control stand, island control stands, storage compartments, ect, don't leave much floor space for crews to place their bag's, lunch boxes, crew bag's and breathers if required, even worse when you put a 3rd person in there too. The best cab layout I have been in is the 90 / 82. Lots of flat floor space behind the seats and everything is in easy reach.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Just to throw in a pointless hypothetical (I am an unabashed supporter of locally built) but if the Australian rail industry had been subjected to the importation of US locomotive models at the beginning of dieselisation rather than being able to customise locally, the clearance and axle load standards these days would be right where we want them. Perhaps these future EMD imports will force an incremental improvement in local standards - rather than having the luxury of a local builder to shoehorn a 21st century American locomotive into 19th century Australian clearances.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Edit function not working .

It's not about safety systems it's about the Socialists pretending to be green and punishing us over the price of electrical energy and fuel . They know we have no alternatives and the ship heads know wind solar tide does work in the proportions needed .
Expensive energy means expensive steel and aluminium and the means to fabricate them . To buy a finished product from somewhere else means they used affordable read cheaper means of achieving the same thing .
Do brain dead morons think it's acceptable to save a buck by having their unthinkable happening somewhere OS out of sight ? Think we're going to lead the world by being holier than thou - who just go ahead and do it the practical way anyhow ?
More unemployment when manufacturing we can easily do here goes OS , that's got to be real good hasn't it . Fewer working harder to support a growing group of unemployed because materials and the means to make something from them is too expensive read uncompetitive . And the green jobs - never saw the light of day did they ?
We deserve to be burnt buying new locomotives , we don't do things the easy way loading gauge or axle load wise . We continue to be a small unique expensive market and our state and federal governments have little interest in rail transport . Throw a heap of BS taxes on rail whilst subsidising road and it's a wonder any non pass non bulk rail still exists .
It's all the fault of the conservatives and especially train crews - the route of all economic evil ...
BDA
Sorry BDA. The main problem is Australia is a huge country with a relatively small population and tax base which has been exacerbated by your right wing darlings in the Coalition who curried favour with a greedy middle class by throwing away the mineral boom as over generous tax breaks ie Middle Class welfare. We just cannot afford to bring the rail system up to scratch and quad lane the Pacific Highway so a bunch of brain dead morons don't kill themselves each holiday season whilst at other times you can drive up the Pacific without seeing another vehicle for miles.

Governments have taken the easy way out ans spend money on the Pacific as its popular and the freight task will be made more efficient. Well that is what Mr Abbott believes.

I am sick of pollies of both persuasions telling families they are doing it tough as it is a complete load of BS as they seem to have plenty of money to spend on fags, booze, flat screen TVs and pretentious McMansions. And as I have said, the reason they have too much money to spend is that little capricious bald headed moron Howard who gave the best of the mining boom away as tax breaks to curry favour with these greedy c*nts instead of spending it on much needed infrastructure. Oh well we had a balanced budget, but so what if one legacy of balanced budget is that our rail network is a shambles.

Meantime BDA, you keep listening to moronic shock jocks and the Murdoch acolytes over at the Daily Telegraph about how great Howard Mark 2 will be for everyone, not. I am also sick of hearing about pink bats. If you dont want your kid electrocuted then ensure they are properly educated so they do not have to work in crap dangerous jobs. But hey, cant afford education and flat screen televisions, oh and the stupid 4 wheel drive.

Yeh, you have it one I am sick of BDA,s drivel befitting of a Pauline Hansen rally. You must have spent a lifetime cultivating such ignorance.
  Spiritman Train Controller

Location: Camden, NSW
Sorry BDA. The main problem is Australia is a huge country with a relatively small population and tax base which has been exacerbated by your right wing darlings in the Coalition who curried favour with a greedy middle class by throwing away the mineral boom as over generous tax breaks ie Middle Class welfare. We just cannot afford to bring the rail system up to scratch and quad lane the Pacific Highway so a bunch of brain dead morons don't kill themselves each holiday season whilst at other times you can drive up the Pacific without seeing another vehicle for miles.

Governments have taken the easy way out ans spend money on the Pacific as its popular and the freight task will be made more efficient. Well that is what Mr Abbott believes.

I am sick of pollies of both persuasions telling families they are doing it tough as it is a complete load of BS as they seem to have plenty of money to spend on fags, booze, flat screen TVs and pretentious McMansions. And as I have said, the reason they have too much money to spend is that little capricious bald headed moron Howard who gave the best of the mining boom away as tax breaks to curry favour with these greedy c*nts instead of spending it on much needed infrastructure. Oh well we had a balanced budget, but so what if one legacy of balanced budget is that our rail network is a shambles.

Meantime BDA, you keep listening to moronic shock jocks and the Murdoch acolytes over at the Daily Telegraph about how great Howard Mark 2 will be for everyone, not. I am also sick of hearing about pink bats. If you dont want your kid electrocuted then ensure they are properly educated so they do not have to work in crap dangerous jobs. But hey, cant afford education and flat screen televisions, oh and the stupid 4 wheel drive.

Yeh, you have it one I am sick of BDA,s drivel befitting of a Pauline Hansen rally. You must have spent a lifetime cultivating such ignorance.
nswtrains
I can't stand either of the choices available atm, but you are right about our eroded tax base, however KEV07 followed up with some tax cuts of his own if I recall correctly so he is just as guilty as Howard/Costello. Ken Henry an ex treasury official has been advocating for the removal of inefficient state business taxes and raising federal taxes, but not one is listening. Not one of those gutless pollies is willing to say we had it good in the early 2000's but now we HAVE to raise taxes for the good of the country especially for our ageing population most of which are pensioners (our own parents in some cases) that have to rely on publicly funded services including the hospital system. But we digress from the topic.....
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

For those with Facebook access, close to 200 GT46ACs photos here
https://www.facebook.com/dejota.ayke/photos

Not the true Atacama, there is still a bit of vegetation, on the southern periphery
  coxsteve Beginner

I am sick of pollies of both persuasions telling families they are doing it tough as it is a complete load of BS as they seem to have plenty of money to spend on fags, booze, flat screen TVs and pretentious McMansions. And as I have said, the reason they have too much money to spend is that little capricious bald headed moron Howard who gave the best of the mining boom away as tax breaks to curry favour with these greedy c*nts instead of spending it on much needed infrastructure. Oh well we had a balanced budget, but so what if one legacy of balanced budget is that our rail network is a shambles.

Meantime BDA, you keep listening to moronic shock jocks and the Murdoch acolytes over at the Daily Telegraph about how great Howard Mark 2 will be for everyone, not. I am also sick of hearing about pink bats. If you dont want your kid electrocuted then ensure they are properly educated so they do not have to work in crap dangerous jobs. But hey, cant afford education and flat screen televisions, oh and the stupid 4 wheel drive.

Yeh, you have it one I am sick of BDA,s drivel befitting of a Pauline Hansen rally. You must have spent a lifetime cultivating such ignorance.




Talk about drivel as long as your Left wing mates sell out the country to the Chinese and others we will never have a future let alone a decent rail network.
Bottom line is unless it pays for itself then it won't happen and while you spin BS about the Mining recource boom being wasted how about Chinese owned YanCoal not only not paying any so called MRRT as espoused by Gillard and Swan, We the taxpayers will actually be paying them 247.6 Million Dollars under the Mining Rent Recources tax system.(You can download the annual report it's all in there)
Almost a quarter of a Billion Dollars upgrades a lot of rail so we can use standard design Loco's.
And while we are talking about YanCoal all sides of Government have allowed Big Business to run roughshod over Australians while CFO's and CEO's raped and Pillaged our Industries to falsely make the bottom line look good so as they left they grabbed a great big fat bonus.

Pity that after raping and pillaging the Company it fell apart a few years after they left, All sides of Politics are guilty of that transgression against both Business and the people of the nation by allowing that sort of plunder to occurr.

You can waffle on all you want but when Multinationals and Big Corporations are allowed to do whatever they want the only thing we will be building in Australia will have to be made of Bamboo and tied together with string because that is what Socialists like the Labor party and the Greens want.


Then where is the new generation of Engineers and apprentices coming from to actually build this stuff, Paul keating shut down Cockatoo Island where every year 800 apprentices went through the system learning a multitude of skills that translated to exactly the skills needed for Locomotive manufacture.

Then we look at the closure of Chullora where we had the capability of producing a Chassis of up to 100 feet in length,Labor government shut that down and even when it was wound back it was subcontracting to private enterprise and making money, Admittedly only around 5 Million a year profit but it was maintained and not losing money and training apprentices.
Certainly not it's glory days of productivity, But with an ability in place to be ramped up as needed to actually make something once more as it had done in the past.

All Governments have lied about Privatisation being cost effective as everything privatised ends up costing us more and all too much of it has gone to overseas ownership.

While you Left wing wankers spin on about the Liberal party you ignore the very real fact that over the last 40 odd years the Labor and Liberal parties have basically swapped positions and the modern Liberal party is like the labor party once was and the labor party is selling us out to Foreign Interests,Do those in South Australia like their Electricity Bills as the Profits go back home to China.
Does everyone in NSW like the Council rates going through the roof because of the Carbon tax as well as Christina Kenneally selling off the NSW waste Authority to a Singaporean French joint venture.Then of course the Invaders on Boats what does a couple of Billion buy these days in rail Lines and Locos???

Now lets have some logic here whenever Government privatises something the New owner faces Commercial reallity usually a Ten Year Commercial Loan period to repay the outlay to purchase, Plus of course Interest then maintenance, Upgrades and Future proofing and they try to tell people selling off assets will save them money BS.Oh and of course they have to actually make a profit that also adds to the Bill shock.
Now lets see what they have not sold off has moved offshore for cheaper production costs and we not only are a small market in the scheme of things we think and act like we know better than the rest of the world and demand something different, Hell we are lucky anyone even bothers to make anything for us at all
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
It would be interesting to separate fact from fiction. Seems to be all in the eye of the political beholder Rolling Eyes

AS for the labelling, well if anyone remotely progressive is emotively tagged as socialist, commo (presumably Mao-Stalinist) then the flip side are those tight a#sed, small minded, paranoid, greedy fascists doing so.
  Spiritman Train Controller

Location: Camden, NSW
........and while you spin BS about the Mining recource boom being wasted....



coxsteve
Howard/Costello taxed about the mid 20% as a percentage of GDP...fact
Rudd/Swan/Gillard a tad lower...fact
Surpluses were great... we all enjoyed the tax cuts given to us by both parties...but public infrastructure lagged behind...fact.

Just read the Downer/EDI annual report where labour costs of the Waratah project are about 20% of total revenue, when you can get this below 15% by going OS (China or elsewhere) why wouldn't a company move their manufacturing OS.

But I'd like to see their safety records or employee entitlements (super, leave, hours of work etc). I for one am prepared to buy Australian (and pay a little more) knowing that the worker was looked after and not have the building fall on them like those poor girls in that textiles factory in Bangladesh.
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
A GT46AC can do what 2 GR12s can do. I must admit, I like the look of these units on their own, but don't think they would mix well with what we're used to here.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/el_sirio_3/9485367865/
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

A GT46AC can do what 2 GR12s can do. I must admit, I like the look of these units on their own, but don't think they would mix well with what we're used to here.
EFB5800

Really, I thought that the GR12 was 1310HP and the GT46ACs is 4500HP
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/cs-america/single-view/view/ferronor-buys-emd-locomotives.html
As AC traction at 40% more efficient than DC, more like 4.8 GR12

These locos are low geared, probable max speed is 60kph, so it is mootable if alternator input is ever more than 3000HP.

They are set up as slug mothers. Slugs still to be ordered. Ferronor has a history of successfully using road slugs for iron ore drags

Slugs operating on the same Vallenar system as the GT46ACs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3jquhg7cGs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whwz4BVdTm8

Road slug efficiency diminishes rapidly at speeds greater than 40 kph
  Hendo Deputy Commissioner

Just to throw in a pointless hypothetical (I am an unabashed supporter of locally built) but if the Australian rail industry had been subjected to the importation of US locomotive models at the beginning of dieselisation rather than being able to customise locally, the clearance and axle load standards these days would be right where we want them. Perhaps these future EMD imports will force an incremental improvement in local standards - rather than having the luxury of a local builder to shoehorn a 21st century American locomotive into 19th century Australian clearances.
Sulla1
Wrong, we would not have current AAR standard structure and loading gauges if we had simply imported US manufactured locomotives. We would still have ended up with loco's like the Alco World Series NSW 44's 45's and 48's. We would have simply exported jobs to the US which meant we would have delayed the repayment of our WW1 and WW2 debts. Plus we would have had to do a range of infrastructure programs through the 1950's to 1980's on a scale probably larger than the Snowy Mountains scheme which would have eclipsed anything the NBN is doing. Every bridge, platform, signal and other structure would have had to be moved, or rebuilt to allow the wider and higher US Loading Gauge. Yes it may be worthwhile for gunzelling and indeed for the nations productivity, but at what cost? Do it on new lines or where major rebuilds are occurring, thoroughly agree, but could Australia in the 1950's through to 80's have afforded it? No, not when you couldn't even buy a magazine like Trains from the US in the early days because of the loss of Australian currency in foreign exchange.

As an example have a look at the Victorian Regional Rail project, to achieve the modern standards of speed they often had to sacrifice double track sections so that they could use existing bridges and not blow out the cost of the project any further.

So, no, US imported loco's won't cause any change. They will simply continue to be built to generic "world" standards to fit our Loading Gauges.


Cheers,
Hendo
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I disagree , some of our designs are better than theirs in some ways and they're not going to alter anything we like to suit such a small market . A lot of the software and screen interfaces going into current GEs and EMDs is a backwards step and it is showing up here - and they have no intention of making it more suitable to suit us . They are geared to supply a mass market because North America hosts a huge population and economy compared to ours here . Their locomotive demand is huge .
We don't run 190 tonne locos on our national standard gauge .
We don't run the brake pipe pressures they do .  
We don't run the traction motor loadings they do .
We do use their almost current electrical systems computers and display units .
We DO use their RS displays and no the scales are not altered to suit . The latest screen interfaces are rubbish even compared to late Dash 8 stuff which has been around how long ?
Where their locomotives eat ours is the weight luxury - mass to increase tractive effort AND allow huge fuel tanks and cooling systems . The extra height does zip for them and the width probably only helps with cooling system packaging . I wonder what United could do with another 10 tonnes and a brief to Gevo (or whatever) a 5020 and add more fuel and cooling capacity .

Our better cab layouts are not something they would be interested in working with and custom stuff is not something they understand very well . Clyde and EDI tend to be the same way and being inflexible has cost them business at times .

Ultimately our pathetic axle loads and loading gauge is holding us back but the former is the easier one to deal with . I'm sure they realise this and are probably waiting till we come to our senses before they get serious about making specialised units to suit our narrow minded limitations . They are not short of customers so no sweat for them .
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Wrong, we would not have current AAR standard structure and loading gauges if we had simply imported US manufactured locomotives. We would still have ended up with loco's like the Alco World Series NSW 44's 45's and 48's. We would have simply exported jobs to the US which meant we would have delayed the repayment of our WW1 and WW2 debts. Plus we would have had to do a range of infrastructure programs through the 1950's to 1980's on a scale probably larger than the Snowy Mountains scheme which would have eclipsed anything the NBN is doing. Every bridge, platform, signal and other structure would have had to be moved, or rebuilt to allow the wider and higher US Loading Gauge. Yes it may be worthwhile for gunzelling and indeed for the nations productivity, but at what cost? Do it on new lines or where major rebuilds are occurring, thoroughly agree, but could Australia in the 1950's through to 80's have afforded it? No, not when you couldn't even buy a magazine like Trains from the US in the early days because of the loss of Australian currency in foreign exchange.

As an example have a look at the Victorian Regional Rail project, to achieve the modern standards of speed they often had to sacrifice double track sections so that they could use existing bridges and not blow out the cost of the project any further.

So, no, US imported loco's won't cause any change. They will simply continue to be built to generic "world" standards to fit our Loading Gauges.


Cheers,
Hendo
Hendo

Not going to argue Australian clearance issues and industrial history, I've made exactly the same comments previously about trying to re-gauge the existing narrow gauge coal hauling network...but for the sake of the hypothetical - in another parallel universe stranger things have happened. Meet modern day metre gauge action in Brazil...with ex-SP tunnel motors among others. Nineteenth-century European standards haven't held back some operators...ALL's predecessor fleet appears to have been mostly US Export models similar to those manufactured here.



http//www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lFpFVPKcghY
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

ALL relaid most of the inland segment of their system with rail capable of at least a 27 tonne axle load. They purchase US tired iron at close to scrap pricing (under US$60K each), kit the engine, and cut the bogies down to meter with new Chinese traction motors, then give them a lick of paint.

Some sections of the coastal escarpment in the south are still 16 tonne/axle due to the difficulty of rebuilding bridges and viaducts, which causes bottlenecks, and forces reduced loadings in the cars carrying export product, hence retaining a fleet of legacy U20C and G22

Aurizon needs to ditch the government imposed loading gauge in the Central Queensland Coal Network that they own. I will have to dig them out, but somewhere I have photos of platforms in a Latino country, where the concessionaire has used a backhoe to remove the platform edge to increase clearance, and the resulting rubble is still piled on the platform years later. Concessionaires in Brazil and Chile are well aware that there is no profit in passengers, and no need for platforms
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Now getting completely off topic.

In a world where B Triples are roads next productivity boost (East Coast) are/would governments support rail moving to a more generous loading gauge the same way they are backing triples.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
No , but as I said heavier axle load perway is more important anyway . We can maximise our use of the existing loading gauge but there's nowhere to go with limited axle loads . Actually on road you can use more axles to distribute the load but impractical for rail .
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Would 3 axle bogies increase the weight allowable on wagons?
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
Would 3 axle bogies increase the weight allowable on wagons?
Donald

Short answer YES.
The problems that arise are span loadings on bridges.
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

Back in late 2012 a standard gauge GT46AC for Comilog in Gabon was dropped on the wharf while unloading

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1784023.htm#1784023

The wreck is back in the States, looks like the insurers may be coughing up

http://www.flickr.com/photos/respondekrailroad/9763346742/in/photostream/

There was one hell of a ripple in the frame when the loco landed
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Well I'd be interested to know which bridges etc along the current Melbourne Sydney Brisbane corridor could not support the weight of say a 180 tonne locomotive eg a 5020 . I would have thought that steam engines would be pretty weighty things and if they tip the scales at more than 180 tonnes there's not much oxygen in the bridge point . For the record what did the larger steam engines weigh ?

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