A-City trains

 
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
.....  It's a major project, I guess you have to expect these kind of delays.
don_dunstan
No you don't.

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Thank-you, Justapassenger, that's really interesting, I suppose they could be using the new trains prior to formal opening if they can get it together in time? 85trainfan also mentioned that you can ride from Hallett Cove to Seaford or Seaford Meadows now, that would be interesting - does the bike trail incorporate the new rail bridge across the Onk or do you go some other way?  I couldn't seem to find the answer on the internet but I'm aware that the bridge does in fact have a bike/pedestrian lane over it.
don_dunstan
The route in question is the Coast to Vines Rail Trail built by the cities of Onkaparinga and Marion, which is a far better use of the thankfully long-gone Willunga rail alignment than a rail line ever was - far more people use it each day for a start! The route approaches the Seaford area from the north-east using a low-level bridge over the Onkaparinga (about 10 years old) built on top of the original rail bridge's remains near Old Noarlunga, then approaching the new rail corridor alongside the southern edge of the new depot. The section from there south has been rebuilt as an integral part of the new rail corridor and includes underpasses shared with the rail line and platform access at both stations.

Between Hackham and Reynella there is also a second option for a fully separated bikeway - the Patrick Jonker Veloway alongside the Southern Expressway - which has connections at each end of that segment. Doing out-and-back rides along the Veloway one way and the Coast to Vines route the other are quite popular.

Pedestrian access on the new rail bridge is purely for necessary maintenance and emergency evacuation. At 1.2 kilometres long and up to 25 metres high, it would not be a suitable bridge for co-locating a shared use path, not when there are two other suitable options not far away (the Coast to Vines Trail bridge to the east, Saltfleet St to the west) plus of course the option to cross the bridge on a train!
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

As Hosk said, previously it, back then, would take just two operators (both Gov owned)
And as we know government operators didn't take true cost into account.
In todays world, cost is paramount, transport has to be the most efficent and cheapest option.

The current road transport sees the complete railcar winched onto the low loader with a winch, and unloaded the same way. The truck runs direct from the Manufacturer to Seaford Depot.

To transport via rail the following steps are needed
1. Railcars would need to be towed by a loco to a place with dual gauge.
2. The railcars would need to be lifted onto SG works bogies (Crane Hire would be a minimum of a couple of thoasands dollars)
3. Rail to Adelaide with buffer wagons (for braking) - this may have to be a speed restricted train - also loading gauge would have to be checked.
4. On arrival in Adelaide once again cranes would have to be hired so the railcar can be lifted onto it's bogies (this can only be done in a dual gauge location - most easiest would be Port Flat yard)
5. Then a BG loco would need to be hired to tow the railcar to Seaford Depot (more $$$$ )
6. Item 5 is currently not possible as the Seaford line is closed!

As I said ........ far cheaper on the low loader!
Pressman

I should have realised sooner, #6 is probably the biggest reason! Smile
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

   My point was really just that your previous railcars were delivered by rail, under their own power when it was BG, and towed on transfer bogies after the interstate conversion to SG, so why can't they still do this?
Bramt

Are you for real? Why can they still not deliver these rail cars under their own power? Maybe it has something to do with the current world wide shortage of 900km 25kV rated extension cords...
Aaron


The 3000s weren't delivered under their own power post SG when on transfer bogies.

OT: Some systems actually do employ separate power cars to drive electric sets when roaming, no extension cords required eg [color=#0b0080][font=sans-serif]RENFE Class 730[/font][/color]
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
My point was really just that your previous railcars were delivered by rail, under their own power when it was BG, and towed on transfer bogies after the interstate conversion to SG, so why can't they still do this?
You've said the answer is too many operators. OK then, but it's not really a great reason. There are countries with hundreds of operators, who deliver passenger cars by rail. Oh well.
"bramt"


Which countries do you have in mind? And do they have the breaks of gauge that we have?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I should have realised sooner, #6 is probably the biggest reason! Smile
bramt
Try #7, that it's cheaper. Bombardier is not a government railway that can afford to fluff around, they are in this to make a profit.

The road deliveries will continue even after the line is reconnected at Goodwood, it's simply a case of the road industry being willing to innovate and do a better job than the rail industry could.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Try #7, that it's cheaper. Bombardier is not a government railway that can afford to fluff around, they are in this to make a profit.

The road deliveries will continue even after the line is reconnected at Goodwood, it's simply a case of the road industry being willing to innovate and do a better job than the rail industry could.
"justapassenger"
Geeez you're up late JAP! I am pretty sure the lines are now connected at Goodwood anyway.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

For all the discussion including a cycle way detour where are sets 4002, 4003.....?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
For all the discussion including a cycle way detour where are sets 4002, 4003.....?
steam4ian
I am going with 'somewhere other than Seaford'.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Geeez you're up late JAP! I am pretty sure the lines are now connected at Goodwood anyway.
Aaron
More accurately an early start rather than a late night! I am partial to an early morning bike ride to take advantage of the flatter roads being clearer, but this time it was the more mundane issue of being up in plenty of time to get my sister to the airport for an early flight.

The line at Goodwood may well be hooked up now, but relying on that as part of a rail-crane-rail-crane-rail delivery scheme wouldn't have been a good thing. There have been way too many setbacks in the project so far, and the last thing we would have wanted is to give Bombardier even more reasons to run their side of the show at a leisurely pace by not making the first delivery even possible before late August.

For all the discussion including a cycle way detour where are sets 4002, 4003.....?
steam4ian

The way it's going, it could be prudent to hedge bets and keep discussing other sustainable transport options for getting to Seaford for the time being!

The first one arriving only got a tiny bit of attention, and only then because it was the first one. Has anybody confirmed that there haven't been any more deliveries since then that simply haven't been reported by anyone?

On the other hand, is it possible that the regular setbacks had the EMU procurement on the rocks and Bombardier cobbled together the first one mainly for the purpose of saving the deal, without having the next ones ready to follow at regular intervals?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
........

On the other hand, is it possible that the regular setbacks had the EMU procurement on the rocks and Bombardier cobbled together the first one mainly for the purpose of saving the deal, without having the next ones ready to follow at regular intervals?
justapassenger

Seeing as there's supposed to be (what) another 22 sets coming there should be another one coming soon surely?  Over what time-frame are they supposed to be coming, eighteen months, two years?  Anyway one working set is enough to test out the parameters of the line, clearances etc.

All very exciting, can't wait to see what they look like out and about... and rub it in the face of my friend who said Adelaide would 'never, ever' have electric trains.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Seeing as there's supposed to be (what) another 22 sets coming there should be another one coming soon surely?  Over what time-frame are they supposed to be coming, eighteen months, two years?  Anyway one working set is enough to test out the parameters of the line, clearances etc.

All very exciting, can't wait to see what they look like out and about... and rub it in the face of my friend who said Adelaide would 'never, ever' have electric trains.
don_dunstan
They shouldn't need the train to test clearances, they should have all of that known before the design leaves the page.

I know you expect these delays, and that you expect them to be expected by us, but we're in a bit of a vicious cycle. The overall delivery of the cars is destined to run late, 'because DPTI and the track aren't ready yet'. However, 'there is no rush to complete the civil/electrical works because the trains aren't here yet'. The one organisation that can take steps to force on time delivery is the State Government/DPTI, but they are unlikely to push for a rush delivery 'because we don't have to write the cheque if they're not here', and it's not like there's an election coming...

The problem is few take pride in making deadlines these days, and Governments by and large are too soft to push for them to be met.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
They shouldn't need the train to test clearances, they should have all of that known before the design leaves the page.

.........
Aaron

They ALWAYS need to test clearances and sightings - you as an engineer (presumably) should know that there's always the possibility of difference between the schemes on a piece of paper and the real world.  Somebody mentioned earlier that there is a slight difference in dimensions between the 3000's and the A-City; any change of this sort will necessitate the train moving slowly around with a dozen people crawling around in hi-viz making sure that the platform doesn't get scraped at speed etc.  We've had endless problems here in Melbourne with interoperation of different sorts of trains on the network - you don't want to get that wrong in Adelaide now do you?

I know you and others have been very unhappy with the schedule being behind and I'm not defending Weatherill here but I think we all need to get our heads around the reality of the size and scope of this project.  When I lived in Adelaide many years ago the rail system was a joke; it was very run down and on the verge of being closed permanently. TSR's were everywhere and derailments were much more common than they should have been; Bannon seriously proposed closing the whole thing and replacing it with buses on a number of occasions.  

We've now gone from that extreme to a point where almost all the track is brand new and (eventually) all the rolling stock will be brand new and running on a modern 25kv system.  It's such a huge undertaking, even with unlimited money and the best engineers you should expect some delays to account for things like the fact that it's a brand-new train engineered especially for Adelaide, integration with the existing power networks, simultaneous upgrades to support infrastructure, and so on.  Compare the Adelaide situation to the electrification project in Auckland (on another thread) where they have been talking about much longer delays than Adelaide's; and then compare it to things like Myki here in Melbourne where the project ran three years behind schedule and nearly double the original cost... and it still doesn't work like it was supposed to.

A delay of a couple of months is nothing to get your knickers in a twist over; it will all be worth it when its running, believe me.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
You're posting about things you can't see again. 'Almost all of the track is brand new'. - Where? and What is your definition of almost all?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
As usual you're right Aaron.  I must have imagined the Gawler, Noarlunga, Belair and Outer Harbour complete rebuilds with gauge-convertible concrete sleepers over the last ten years because I wasn't there to actually see it with my own eyes... silly me.
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
As usual you're right Aaron.  I must have imagined the Gawler, Noarlunga, Belair and Outer Harbour complete rebuilds with gauge-convertible concrete sleepers over the last ten years because I wasn't there to actually see it with my own eyes... silly me.
don_dunstan
I well remember when the advent of new suburban trains necessitated the very expensive shaving off of the faces of numerous brick platforms in Melbourne because someone goofed over the loading gauge. Clearances DO need to be checked. It was done with the extension of the tram line down King William Street. I was there, walking alongside the tram. I too have the impression that at least some of the activity that has been happening over the last several years has had something to do with the complete renewal of tracks (except for a few hundred metres on the up side of Warradale) and the first serious attempt in my very long lifetime to modernize the Adelaide suburban rail systems. PLEASE Aaron, get off your high horse and stop criticizing other peoples' messages almost as a knee jerk reaction. It would help if you actually read and thought about them before you make your comments. Three times recently, you have failed in this basic requirement for a proper debate on any subject.

I don't get any pleasure from making this comment, but I have noted a very great drop in contributions to the South Australian forum, and wonder whether some of our fellow members have decided that they have had enough of unwarranted criticisms. You DO make a valuable contribution to this forum. Why spoil it with adolescent antics?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

I have heard the A city trains are already having modifications to account for local track conditions.

As one who has just spent today going through the tedium of equipment commissioning I can assure you that a clearance test will be well worth the effort.

Ian
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I well remember when the advent of new suburban trains necessitated the very expensive shaving off of the faces of numerous brick platforms in Melbourne because someone goofed over the loading gauge.
SAR526

I believe it was the Hitachi trains because the carriages were much longer than the old Harris and Tait carriages, it caused a lot of problems going around platforms on corners and at speed.  And yeah, it was a big embarrassment for the Hamer Government at the time who I believe spent a fortune to try and modernise the Melbourne suburban system with that project, and then had to turn around and fix up all the stations to retrospectively accommodate the new trains.

Melbourne has had multiple problems since then with the inter-operation of newer X'trapolis trains on the Frankston line requiring tens of millions to be spent because of signal sighting and equipment clearance issues.  It's depressing how often these problems occur -checking over and over and over again is a must rather than an option. Adelaide doesn't want to make the same mistake.
  defman Station Master

In doing some orientation with 4001, we heard that either 4002 or 4003 was graffitied in the yard in Dandenong... Apparently security ain't the best there. Certainly looks impressive up close... Big hole around the coupler recess... A lot of crap could get in there... Probably wouldn't affect much I guess. panto drops and rises nice and quick... Good for those pesky shoes tied together around the catenary...

I certainly think there's a lack of posters because all the threads seem to be less about a general discussion where all thoughts and views are accepted.. And more about trying to out do each other with what they think they know and be-littling those who just want to contribute with their views and or questions. Why bother? When there are obviously people on here who know it ALL!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I have heard the A city trains are already having modifications to account for local track conditions.

As one who has just spent today going through the tedium of equipment commissioning I can assure you that a clearance test will be well worth the effort.

Ian
steam4ian
I agree completely on both counts. Even if everything should be fine you still check just to avoid the big pointy hat with a D on it.

What is disappointing is that the first EMU delivered has come so late. The majority of the clearance testing and so on should have been out of the way months ago, now it will need to fit in with other pre-opening train runs and service runs. With the absurd tardiness from Bombardier (and this recent alleged graffiti incident) you wouldn't think they were a global megacorp delivering new trains to all six inhabited continents, you would assume they were some shonky joint that has just added trains to their previous repertoire of schools halls, pink batts and RAN submarines.
Big hole around the coupler recess... A lot of crap could get in there... Probably wouldn't affect much I guess.
defman

Interesting, do you see any sign that a detachable cover could be fitted over the coupler's mouth?

The Hitachi "Javelin" EMUs used for domestic services out of London St Pancras International on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link certainly look a lot cleaner at each end when the hatch is closed. Those units have an automatic mechanism for opening and closing the hatch, but if the plan here is to only run the A-City EMUs as single units rather than pairs then a manually detachable plastic cover might get the job done.
  defman Station Master



Interesting, do you see any sign that a detachable cover could be fitted over the coupler's mouth?

.
"justapassenger"


No... Just the big recess. The senior did say there may be talk of doing some sort of cover/cage back behind the coupler, protecting whatever is back there...
  Top Cat Assistant Commissioner

Location: Under Hilton Bridge
First powered run of an A-City on test is scheduled over the Seaford - Noarlunga section for Sunday or Monday next week.....a good source.8)
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

First powered run of an A-City on test is scheduled over the Seaford - Noarlunga section for Sunday or Monday next week.....a good source.8)
Top Cat

Lets hope someone will be at Noarlunga Centre station to see the electric train stationary at the station
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Good news - I don't suppose they will invite the media in case something goes wrong so hopefully some gunzel will get pics to share (assuming it actually goes ahead).
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
I have also heard from several sources out side this group that there maybe a test run of the A-City on Monday.

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