More Flexity-Melbourne orders, please!

 
  msilsby Deputy Commissioner

Location: Canberra
The option for 100 will probably be taken once the proposed depot at Preston eventuates. With capacity for 160 E class trams, plus the track works to allow trams to get to Sydney Road, it is a must before any further trams can be purchased. At the moment, there is simply not the room in depots to store the trams.

Most other depots will be too small to replace their existing rolling stock with the E class and maintain service delivery, in isolation. A few depots have had work done to 'assist' in expanding the depot, such as Glen Huntly, but even with this expansion within the existing grounds, there is simply not enough room. Only through sharing services with new 'super depots' will it be possible to replace more rolling stock with E class trams. There is plenty of room for these - an extension of the 109 takes it past lots of unused land (particularly under the high voltage power lines) while a similar extension of the 86 also gives many potential sites.

Either way, money needs to be spent before any large scale tram replacement program eventuates.

The cynic in my says that the current government will go to the next election promising to purchase the additional trams and build out South Bank.

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  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Could the Flexity Melbourne also come in a shorter version for lower capacity routes? And could later Flexity Mebourne models actually have the centre bogies right under the articluations? If the bogies can move, it's surely not that hard to place them under the articulations.
  msilsby Deputy Commissioner

Location: Canberra
Meh.

Not worth the hassle.

Just go the full E class. With all the bells and whistles it will always be a better tram than anything else on the network.

I expect to see a big announcement prior to the next election of the government taking the option for the rest of the 100 trams. And the Preston Depot. And possibly Glenhuntly being expanded. Maybe a new depot and a short extension of either the 86 or the 109 to a place where there is plenty of room to build a new depot. For 'bugger all' it will loudly proclaim that it is the 'public transport party'.

If the government was smart, it would initate a program to replace the entire fleet with E-Class trams.

If it gets re-elected, it can do so and worry about it later. if it doesn't, it is the other parties fault....
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
But a shorter version would surely be better suited to lightly loaded routes. Before the modern tramway renaissance, the average length of a tram was similar to that of a bus. The average length of new buses has remained much the same while nearly all new trams are much longer.
  TheMetman Locomotive Driver

Location: gippsland
But a shorter version would surely be better suited to lightly loaded routes. Before the modern tramway renaissance, the average length of a tram was similar to that of a bus. The average length of new buses has remained much the same while nearly all new trams are much longer.
Myrtone
It's cheaper and easier to cascade shorter trams to lightly used routes with longer trams replacing them on busier routes. It would also cost more to change a design and to build a shorter E class tram.
  712M Chief Commissioner

No point building a low capacity E class when the A, C1 and D1s are not going anywhere anytime soon.
  the manager Beginner

Just setting some facts straight. Bombardier has internal design who designed the melbourne, basel, gold coast and other global designs. Cobalt Niche were employed for doing animations of these vehicles. Designs came from 1 of  bombardiers industrial design centres of excellence. I believe they have 3 around the world. 1 of which is in brisbane australia
  the manager Beginner

Without telling you too much all I can say is that what I have said is fact and yes there website is false. Both the melbourne e class and basel came from bombardier in house.
  TheMetman Locomotive Driver

Location: gippsland
Without telling you too much all I can say is that what I have said is fact and yes there website is false. Both the melbourne e class and basel came from bombardier in house.
the manager
If the site is false wouldn't you think Bombardier or these in-house designers would've take legal action. It's not fact when there's no proof. Whatever is the case Cobalt Niche still helps Bombardier on designs. I could be wrong, but I need proof not a rumor.

It's going to get off topic so I'm going to stop talking about who designed it or not. That's for Bombardier and the Victorian Goverment who commissioned Cobalt Niche to discus.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
I think the discussion is a bit at cross-purposes here. The engineering design was (probably) done by Bombardier in-house but, as Cobalt Niche says, they were subbed to do the aesthetic (internal and external) design. It's quite common among tram manufacturers to outsource styling. Even the engineering is often outsourced now.
  the manager Beginner

Hey guys didn't really want to say it here but I have to put this straight not only on this site are the posted facts wrong but also on the marketing spell of the melbourne based design consultancy. I understand sometimes we believe what we read and you could say the same about what I have just written. But the facts are that these designs mentioned are from bombardiers in house industrial design who have also designed, gold coast F2, adelaide emu, vlocity dmu and many more to come. These design consultants  always try to sell themselves on the minimal input they had (marketing). I can not say any more, hopefully you can read between the lines.
  TheMetman Locomotive Driver

Location: gippsland
Hey guys didn't really want to say it here but I have to put this straight not only on this site are the posted facts wrong but also on the marketing spell of the melbourne based design consultancy. I understand sometimes we believe what we read and you could say the same about what I have just written. But the facts are that these designs mentioned are from bombardiers in house industrial design who have also designed, gold coast F2, adelaide emu, vlocity dmu and many more to come. These design consultants  always try to sell themselves on the minimal input they had (marketing). I can not say any more, hopefully you can read between the lines.
the manager
What facts? you keep saying it's fact. But it's not fact unless there's proof. Not one bit you have showed any proof. Don't be surprised if no one believes you. Because it's hearsay. As I said before if Bombardier or their in-house designers had a problem why not they take it to the courts.
Plus Cobalt Niche designed trams before, even though they didn't get built they still designed trams. And have worked with Yarra Trams for a while.

I agree with what Tonyp says.
  the manager Beginner

I can not post facts here. Fact is I designed them. I am sick of people taking credit for my designs. Re read cobalt niches marketing blurb and then you may twig that they only did animation and rendering for the chosen design. 4 designs were presented to the state. 2 of which were cobalt niche 2 of which were mine. I will not post on here any more.  You can chose to believe or not. Watch the design awards later this year and next, proof will be there
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Haha how to pressure somebody until they spill out the facts!

I thought the Flexity 2 was designed in Germany and the Queensland model is basically the same as the Blackpool tram. Changing the front end styling isn't the same as designing the tram.

I don't know the situation within Bombardier, but I do know nowadays that a lot of the engineering and styling work for trams is contracted out by manufacturers. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if Flexity 2 styling went through a design studio.

Bombardier, Siemens and Alstom, through a lot of corporate "rationalisation" in recent times, pushed out a lot of their experienced designers and engineers in Europe who were promptly scooped up by new players such as CAF and Solaris or set up their own consultancies. Only the Czechs have kept their expertise within their borders. Result: Bombardier still has sales first place but Siemens and Alstom have been pushed aside by Skoda and CAF, with the two Polish firms coming up behind.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
I can not post facts here. Fact is I designed them. I am sick of people taking credit for my designs. Re read cobalt niches marketing blurb and then you may twig that they only did animation and rendering for the chosen design. 4 designs were presented to the state. 2 of which were cobalt niche 2 of which were mine. I will not post on here any more.  You can chose to believe or not. Watch the design awards later this year and next, proof will be there
the manager
Just reading vol 5 of John Dunn's Comeng history I see the styling was done by "Bombardier's Brett Davidson". If that's you, take a bow.

To me it looks more like an angry caterpillar than a breaking wave, but doesn't matter, it's a neat design for Gold Coast. Good job Wink
  Belisarius Beginner

Outside of Victoria, it would probably be best not to boast about designing those things even if it were true, which it isn't.
As correctly guessed above by tonyp, the real engineering design was and is done a group in Germany and Austria.  Bombardier Australia then tinkered with the design to change the bogie and some aesthetics.  That's gone about as well as their tinkering with the Variotram did in 1996.
On the other topic, Bombardier wouldn't be suing Cobalt Niche because the "industrial design" of cobalt niche is not at all the same thing as the engineering design of the vehicle..
  Steve33 Beginner

http://www.gooddesignaustralia.com/awards/past/entry/melbourne-e-class-tram/?year=2014

Utilising Bombardier Australia’s internal Industrial Design Centre of Excellence saw the vehicle design set new standards with regards to aesthetic and functional appeal. Inspired by one of Melbourne most loved icons, Luna Park, the E-Class tram front end design reflects the bold neon lighting crowning the famous “Mr Moon” face through the lighting details.
  msilsby Deputy Commissioner

Location: Canberra
Looks like the government is about to announce 100 more trams as part of the budget. Also 100 new trains.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2015/5/4/politics/victoria-surplus-be-12bn
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
This would be the already-known option for the next 100 E-class trams.  

These are badly needed to modernise the fleet where the Z1 class is gamely soldiering on somewhat after its original sell-by date and the Z3 class is costing ever more to keep running.  As well there is a need to increase passenger capacity on some parts of the network whether directly by E-class trams entering service or as the result of a cascade of older vehicles.

E-class trams are still expected to take over the 86 from an unspecified date which would release B2 trams for cascade.  The greatest need for these is on the 55 and on certain Glenhuntly tables which carry enormous school loadings and are often busy locally through the city at any time.

Working last night (Sunday) I observed that many trams on St. Kilda Road were busy or even full and standing until after 10pm.  Most of those were Z-classes.

A confirmed order also of course secured the Dandenong plant for a couple more years and, if you believe such things happen, it potentially buys votes from the workforce in that area.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Looks like the government is about to announce 100 more trams as part of the budget. Also 100 new trains.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2015/5/4/politics/victoria-surplus-be-12bn
msilsby

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/new-trams-and-trains-in-vic-budget
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

There's been some debate about the fall in the total number of trams, as more Zs are withdrawn and replaced with fewer, longer Es.


I've been looking at the 10 year tram procurement plan, trying to figure out what the fleet size would fall to, but the figures don't add up.
The link has 2 different documents. The word doc has tables, and the pdf has graphs.

The current fleet table looks like this:
TRAM FLEET
TYPE- LOW FLOOR TRAMS
TRAMS
AVERAGE AGE
E-Class
22 (+28 on order)
0 Years
C2-Class
5
5 Years
D-Class
59 (38 D1 & 21 D2)
10 Years
C1-Class
36
12 Years

TYPE- HIGH FLOOR TRAMS
TRAMS
AVERAGE AGE
B-Class
132
24 Years
A-Class
70
28 Years
Z-Class
147
33 Years
W-Class
40
60+ Years


More or less the same as Vicsig. 511 trams including 22 Es and 40 Ws, or 471 excluding Ws (no longer any in revenue service).

The problem I have is with the 'Tram Fleet Requirement' table:
YEAR
NEW FLEET
EXISITING FLEET
TOTAL TRAM REQUIREMENT
2015
27
413
417
2016
37
394
411
2017
50
368
408
2018
70
329
389
2019
90
306
392
2020
110
290
393
2021
130
270
395
2022
150
270
418
2023
180
250
421
2024
210
210
425
2025
240
180
428



shows the total fleet will fall from 417 now to 389 in 2018, then up to 428 by 2026.

Is it implying that the current fleet requirement is only 417 trams, even though we have 471?
Are there really currently 54 surplus trams every peak? Or does 'total tram requirement' mean the absolute bare minimum, excluding maintenance, repairs etc?

If the loss is only 417-389=28 trams by 2018, then I can accept that. 28 fewer trams is barely one per route, so it should only make a difference of maybe 1-2 peak hour trips per route, and should not affect off-peak frequency. I don't think anyone would disagree that higher capacity trams would help Swantston St more than a higher frequency of Z-size trams. It's the busiest tramway corridor in the world, with frequencies up to 1 per minute. Vehicle capacity over increased frequency is what's needed here.

If the loss is instead 471-389=82 trams, thats 3 times fewer! The effect on other routes would be noticeable. Eg rt 19 trams are always heavily loaded, even the D2s. A larger capacity tram isn't much comfort on Sydney rd if it's still full and the next one is further away.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
There's been some debate about the fall in the total number of trams, as more Zs are withdrawn and replaced with fewer, longer Es.


I've been looking at the 10 year tram procurement plan, trying to figure out what the fleet size would fall to, but the figures don't add up.
The link has 2 different documents. The word doc has tables, and the pdf has graphs.

The current fleet table looks like this:
TRAM FLEET
TYPE- LOW FLOOR TRAMS
TRAMS
AVERAGE AGE
E-Class
22 (+28 on order)
0 Years
C2-Class
5
5 Years
D-Class
59 (38 D1 & 21 D2)
10 Years
C1-Class
36
12 Years

TYPE- HIGH FLOOR TRAMS
TRAMS
AVERAGE AGE
B-Class
132
24 Years
A-Class
70
28 Years
Z-Class
147
33 Years
W-Class
40
60+ Years
bramt
When talking about trams and capacity you need to talk about proper 30 metre trams that need to replace all existing short trams on a one for one basis, thereby going some way to realising the capacity inherent in the track network. At present the Melbourne tram fleet is basically a glorified bus fleet on rails.

Look at it this way - the Melbourne fleet comprises:

257 single-articulated buses (W,Z and A)
206 double-articulated buses (B,C1,D1)
48 genuine trams (C2,D2, E)

Don't let the bus lobby find out about this.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

When talking about trams and capacity you need to talk about proper 30 metre trams that need to replace all existing short trams on a one for one basis
tonyp
Yes, that's what I'm trying to answer. Is the current fleet requirement 417 'E-size' trams, or 471 'bus-size' trams? How are they equating them? And how are they justifying having fewer actual vehicles available for the next few years?
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Look at it this way - the Melbourne fleet comprises:

257 single-articulated buses (W,Z and A)
206 double-articulated buses (B,C1,D1)
48 genuine trams (C2,D2, E)

Don't let the bus lobby find out about this.
tonyp
If trams need to be over 30m long to be 'genuine', what kind of vehicle have cities had for the past century?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
@bramt the way I see it is that they are saying they need 417 trams in total (small and large) and that they can justify having fewer trams by having a bigger balance of large trams (and maybe better traffic priority).

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