The shape of EMD's to come

 
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
For the record what did the larger steam engines weigh ?
BDA
According to Wikipedia, the AD60 Garratts originally weighed 562,000 lb (255 t) later 582,000 lb (264 t).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_AD60_class_locomotive

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  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Non compound units like a 38/57/58 is probably a little more relevant to compare a current diesel electric too .
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Edit function still not working .
A quick search around reckons a 36 is about 160 tonnes , a 38 195-200 tonnes , a 57 well over 200 tonnes with restrictions . All with tenders obviously .
I wouldn't think double headed 38s would give any bridge structure an easier time than a pair of 5020s nor 36s vs 90's . Different story with the perway and individual axle loads though .
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
More wheels under those to spread the weight...
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

The problem with extra axles is length, does ARTC mandate a length limit?

The SD40-2 converted to B+B-B+B in Brazil come out at around 26 meters

http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/docs/CRO-SA.pdf?AR
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
From what I was reading the axle loads on some steamers was not that light , I didn't notice their lengths but I suspect it may be more than 21-22m .
Some of their quoted max speeds looked interesting and I think one was quoted at a little over 90 miles per hour . Hmm , 22TAL at 145 km/h with hardly modern suspension .
Bridge wise they support the total mass of the loco/s with the rails and sleepers distributing this load . Todays heavier rails and sleepers should be better than what was around 40-50 years ago .
For the steamies , what infrastructure limited the areas D57s could go ? I think it was Junee south and Lithgow west , can't remember north and Illa .
  M636C Minister for Railways

From what I was reading the axle loads on some steamers was not that light , I didn't notice their lengths but I suspect it may be more than 21-22m .
Some of their quoted max speeds looked interesting and I think one was quoted at a little over 90 miles per hour . Hmm , 22TAL at 145 km/h with hardly modern suspension .
Bridge wise they support the total mass of the loco/s with the rails and sleepers distributing this load . Todays heavier rails and sleepers should be better than what was around 40-50 years ago .
For the steamies , what infrastructure limited the areas D57s could go ? I think it was Junee south and Lithgow west , can't remember north and Illa .
BDA
The 57 class were allowed to Thirroul on the Illawarra but were not permitted on the North at all since a number of bridges were too weak (Cockle Creek, Ourimbah, Wyong, all of which were replaced in the early 1960s) but significantly because they were too wide for some tunnels.

The weight of the D 57 was understated on the diagram and it was significantly heavier, notably on the trailing truck.

But they were initially limited to Harden on the south and were only allowed to Junee after the duplication in 1946. I'd guess they were allowed to Cootamundra before WWII.  The 57 class locomotive weighed 141 tonnes carried on seven axles, with significantly less on the leading bogie than the driving axles, which reduced curve forces. The locomotive and tender were 26.6 metres long.

The AD60 Garratt did weigh more than 260 tonnes but they were 33 metres long with an axle load from 16 to 18 tonnes. These were designed for branch lines and the whole loco would rarely be on a single bridge span at once.

One bridge that couldn't take a 180 tonne locomotive would be the Murray River bridge which is now single track since trains were not allowed to pass on the bridge in dual gauge days.

The heaviest locomotives allowed south of Junee were the 38 class. There were only 30 38 class and they almost never double headed in regular service but there are 120 (well nearly) NRs and they are usually at least double headed. Combined with much heavier freight wagon loadings, the same rail that has been there since the 1940s is getting a much harder time now with 134 tonne locomotives than it had with steam, even if the sleepers are new.

M636C
  Shacks Ghanzel

Location: Sir Big Lens of the Distant Upper Hunter
Back to the current, I have been past EDI Cardiff a few times over the last month and noticed LDP's 10, 12, 13 and 14 still sitting there. Anyone know where LDP11 is ?
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Back to the current, I have been past EDI Cardiff a few times over the last month and noticed LDP's 10, 12, 13 and 14 still sitting there. Anyone know where LDP11 is ?
Shacks
Son of El Zorro, on long term lease. Probably in the paint shops ATM:D
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/vossloh-to-supply-euro-dual-locomotives-to-south-africa.html

The Passenger Rail Authority of South Africa (PRASA) has rebently signed a lease agreement with Swifambo for 20 Cape gauge Vossloh Espana Euro 4000, prime mover will be a 16-645 http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000001&lang=en&id=5491&action=shownews#.UldI4VOyl1E

http://www.vossloh-espana.com/media/downloads/pdfs/flyer/Vossloh_Espana_EURO4000_passengers_us.pdf

Basically a GT46CU tarted up in a European shell

I do not know if PRASA locos provide HEP, if not the Euro 4000 probably has a 1000 HP too much for Cape gauge DC traction motors, may be fitted with a 12-710?
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

This is the standard gauge GT46ACS delivered to SRO Saudi Arabia in September

Photo from Saudi newspaper Alriyadh http://www.alriyadh.com/en

[img]http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1808/q6l6.jpg[/img]

A better photo than the one in "Trains Locomotive Annual 2013"


The shipping labels attached to the Chilean meter gauge batch gave the following

All seven units frame numbers are the same as serial numbers.  

EMD 4301      fn 20128822-01      06/13
FN 4601-06     fn 20108368-001 through 006 in order.   All 05/13

Shipping data as follows (most units still have the data sheet attached to the underframe)

All shipped from Lambert's Point Docks Inc,   Norfolk, VA

Length, coupler to coupler:   72.67 ft
Width    9.74 ft
Height    15.06 ft
Weight, including shipping cribbing:  260,926 lbs
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Curious to know what Saudi Arabia has to do with Australia. Other than rhyming....
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

Curious to know what Saudi Arabia has to do with Australia. Other than rhyming....
GT46C-ACe
As Downer is withdrawing from loco assembly, we are postulating on the shape of future EMD's

With off the shelf product available, it is implausible that Australian operators will pay a premium to have obsolete Downer designs built overseas
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
As Downer is withdrawing from loco assembly, I am postulating on the shape of future EMD's
jmt
That's better.

Now, I've said it before to no answer and I'll say it again, beyond Downer ceasing their locomotive building in Australia in the coming year what other details of this deal do we know? (Expecting silence on this...)

Sure they may want to sell us a 106t GT46AC but this deal is meant to provide Downer with a locomotive offering that is built somewhere where the labor costs are lower to make the price of the product less than what they've been selling. Why can't this new source build GT42s and our GT46s but at a lower cost? That's what strikes me as the best idea.

And again, what does Saudi Arabia have to do with Australia? Saudi pays a premium to get the SD70ACS (S for Sand filtration) and now they're paying a premium to get a modified off the shelf product, the GT46ACS (S for Sand filtration). Not a good example of your argument....
  M636C Minister for Railways

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/vossloh-to-supply-euro-dual-locomotives-to-south-africa.html

The Passenger Rail Authority of South Africa (PRASA) has rebently signed a lease agreement with Swifambo for 20 Cape gauge Vossloh Espana Euro 4000, prime mover will be a 16-645 http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000001&lang=en&id=5491&action=shownews#.UldI4VOyl1E

http://www.vossloh-espana.com/media/downloads/pdfs/flyer/Vossloh_Espana_EURO4000_passengers_us.pdf

Basically a GT46CU tarted up in a European shell

I do not know if PRASA locos provide HEP, if not the Euro 4000 probably has a 1000 HP too much for Cape gauge DC traction motors, may be fitted with a 12-710?
jmt

Noting that fifty locomotives are the Euro Dual design, which uses ABB inverters and AC motors, and I agree that six narrow gauge DC motors would be hard pressed to put 4000 HP to ground (remember that before the D43, GT26Cs in South Africa were limited to 2700 HP,) I think these 20 will be AC traction.

In Europe units with 12-710s are marketed as Euro 3000, and this name would be used for exports as well.

M636C
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

In Europe units with 12-710s are marketed as Euro 3000, and this name would be used for exports as well.
M636C
I went with the Euro 4000 designation, as this was the model quoted in the press releases and on Vossloh's web site
http://www.vossloh-espana.com/en/products/references_1/references_1.html

The Euro 3000 designator sees to be limited to B-B, interesting to note that the recent delivery of 3000's to Israel are AC traction

There is a humungous political bunfight currently under way in South Africa re the lease of these locos. By leasing from a free enterprise company, PRASA (a parastatal) has legally bypassed the requirement that locomotives purchased by parasratals have a 50% local content (diesel), and 60% (electric)
http://www.iol.co.za/business/companies/prasa-no-probe-needed-into-loco-deal-1.1591799
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Hopefully this puts to bed any ideas of wanting EMD to sell GT38AC or GT46ACs to local operators....camera phone photos of the Peter Clark article in the Feb 2014 Railway Digest.

Shown are the 134-139t and 180t versions for use on the standard gauge, mentioned was also a 138-150t GT46CU-ACe for the narrow gauge. There's a new inverter setup (same as in the SD70ACe-P4 and SD70ACe-P6 in the US) that uses 1 inverter per axle instead of the old 1 inverter per bogie setup used on the GT46C-ACe originally. This new inverter arrangement is all behind the cab vestibule (the three stacked grilles) and thus allows a small platform at the rear due to there no longer being an inverter cabinet back there.




New cab layout also shown in a full sized mock up.

Like I've said all along, makes no sense to throw away what EDi/Downer has worked on so far and this updating of the product atleast says to me they'll build these locos for our market (at a guess anyone else who asks too) just somewhere else to make them cheaper. The biggest improvement however is the change from the old inverter setup to the new, it should allow the GT46 to be a much better lugger.
  jmt Deputy Commissioner
  Shacks Ghanzel

Location: Sir Big Lens of the Distant Upper Hunter
I have seen better photo's of that cab layout and a list of changes to be made, these include moving the throttle position and angle, re arranging of the switches and a few other things to make it more user friendly. The ones I have seen didn't have the vigo button there, I am not sure where it was, but where it is in that shot I think it will be in the way.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I think the problem is setting up production lines for small runs of unique locomotives . I'd say that if EMD had the opportunity to look at EDIs plans they would find something useful to keep in mind . I'm not so sure that there is anything truly innovative in a GT46C ACe or a C44 ACi though the effort to keep them to the 134-140 gross tonne area is considerable . It's probably more a case of what common parts and inventory a mob like EMD is prepared to have for export locomotives .

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