don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
...or the random completely free trips.  I still don't understand how I've been getting these, I only wish that I could work out what the glitch is.

I might try Mickey on V/Line tomorrow just to see what happens.  Hopefully it's free or next to nothing.

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  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Don Dunstan, the same 2 hour rule that applies to Metro travel applies to V/Line IF you use Myki.
From when you first touch on, you have 2 hours from the next hour if you want a free return trip home. As an example, you touch on at Geelong at 9.20 am in time for for the 9.28am departure to Southern Cross, where you touch off at 10.36am. Your 2 hours starts at 10am, so you have until 12pm to touch on again for your return trip, which is great if you know your timetable, and only need to be at your destination for a short time.

The other quirk that may be giving you freebies is if you travel cross country (for example Ballarat to Geelong, or Seymour to Traralgon). Myki works on zones, not distances, so you only pay for the number of zones you travel in, not how far you travel. You only need to read my recent posts on my experience last Sunday to see where this happened, where Myki charged me $11 for a Geelong-Malmsbury (zones 1-7) return concession off peak fare, had I bought a ticket at the Geelong booking office, it would have cost me in the order of $28. And I wouldn't have had the benefit of an off peak fare either Confused
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
XXXXlbear: Okay, now I'm starting to understand why the free trips work.  But it seems very strange to me that they would reward people for short return trips in that way - oh well, who am I to question the wisdom of Mickey.  And traveling across one zone in that way; it's illogical that you wouldn't have to pay at all for doing that and as Gwiwer said a few pages back, it's probably the really complicated architecture that's to blame.  But again - who am I to question it when you get a free trip.
  XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
Unfortunately the Myki boffins aren't like the pollies - at least we can get rid of politicians at an election.
Valvegear
As previously established: the unavailability of short-term tickets is a political decision, not a technical one.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
XXXXlbear: Okay, now I'm starting to understand why the free trips work.  But it seems very strange to me that they would reward people for short return trips in that way - oh well, who am I to question the wisdom of Mickey.  And traveling across one zone in that way; it's illogical that you wouldn't have to pay at all for doing that and as Gwiwer said a few pages back, it's probably the really complicated architecture that's to blame.  But again - who am I to question it when you get a free trip.
don_dunstan

Exactly.
I know of people who have had a devil of a time with Myki, and absolutely hate the system, but it has worked almost too perfectly for me-so much so that I have pretty much stopped complaining about its bad points (such as lack of short term tickets), especially when I seem to come across these (legitimate) complimentary train rides.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
As previously established: the unavailability of short-term tickets is a political decision, not a technical one.
"jb17kx"

We are all perfectly well aware of that, my dear fellow. Who do you think makes the political decisions?  Politicians? No way. Watch "Yes Minister"; it's not a comedy, it's a documentary. Politicians come and go, bureaucrats tell whoever is in power that such-and-such system is in place, and that takes care of that. As I have said before, I'd love to see Ministers with enough balls to tell the bureaucrats to get off their collective backsides and get a day ticket working - now!  Then, tell them that if  it's not working perfectly in six months, buy the Age and start looking at the Sits Vac.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Okay, I used Myki on V/Line for the first time ever and it worked; it was a few dollars less than the normal cash price for a ticket (but not free as I was hoping).  Bloody Mickey, why didn't he give me a free trip like I wanted... now I hate him again!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Actually I figured out why I got a reduced rate on my V/Line trip; it's because there's a set rate on the weekends in the metro area (which under Mickey begins from Bacchus Marsh).
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Actually I figured out why I got a reduced rate on my V/Line trip; it's because there's a set rate on the weekends in the metro area (which under Mickey begins from Bacchus Marsh).
don_dunstan

Myki is valid not only in the metro area but V/line Interurban areas as well.
Alos, why you may have gotten a cheaper V/line rate than you first thought is that off peak fares now apply to Myki fares on V/Line services on weekends. This is just moe more thing about using Myki on V/Line services that neither V/Line or Myki officialdom want people to know about.
  sas85 Chief Commissioner

Location: V1
Myki is valid not only in the metro area but V/line Interurban areas as well.
Alos, why you may have gotten a cheaper V/line rate than you first thought is that off peak fares now apply to Myki fares on V/Line services on weekends. This is just moe more thing about using Myki on V/Line services that neither V/Line or Myki officialdom want people to know about.
"xxxxlbear"


I think what Don is saying is the fare is cheaper because the zone 1/2 component of the fare was 3.50
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Yes. That's just the purchase price, even before a family buys their individual train, tram, or bus fares. And it's no good assuming that if one person has a Myki, that that person can top up with enough money for fares for each of their group or family....each member of the family must have a Myki.

I have mentioned before in this thread that I have heard of Simon Owens, panel operator at 3AW, deciding to take his family of 2 adults and 4 kids to to the city on public transport from Ringwood I think it was. This was a once off weekend actvity, and he ended up turning his family around and headed back to their car parked nearby after being told that the total cost would be $71.32!!!!
....6 Myki's for $24 (2 x $6 adult + 4 x $3 child), and 6 x zone 1 + 2 fares $47.32 (2 x $11.84 adult + 4 x $5.92 children).

He said it wasn't so much the daily fares itself that was the problem, it was the price of the 6 Myki's that was...and he felt it was very unreasonable as travelling by public transport was a rarity for his family, and now he knows what the price is, it has probably detered him and his family from using public transport again for a very, very long time.

I can see how Myki can be very discouraging for people wanting to travel once or twice (such as tourists, or in the example above), and very advantagous for people like me who have found little quirks on the system that can give me free V/Line trips -if you happen to know about the 2 hour window when tagging on at your originating station, and zonal travel as opposed to distance travel as mentioned in previous posts (ie Geelong to Malmsbury for instance).
xxxxlbear

Actually, if it was a weekend, then: 6 Myki's for $24 (2 x $6 adult + 4 x $3 child), and 6 x zone 1 + 2 fares $21.00 (2 x $3.50 adult + 4 x $3.50 children) = $45
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I forgot about the $3.50 cap on the weekends. Even with the $3.50 cap, $45 for 2 adults and 4 kids is expensive, just for public transport for 1 day on the weekend. And if it's during the week on school holidays, without the cap, $71 becomes almost prohibitive.
But then again, if one drove a car or one of those people movers families seem to love, and drove to the Melbourne CBD, trying to find free or cheap car paking is nigh on impossible Confused
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
xxxxlbear: You are right on the money there: It's the purchase of the cards that makes it a really unattractive option for casual users but particularly for tourists - if you're almost certain to never use it again it really feels like a rip-off asking $6 for the initial card before you can even use it.  My own Mickey has become a bit dodgey of late (I think the aerial is damaged) so I might get it replaced before it actually fails the next time I'm at a staffed station; at least that's free.  The unpredictable nature of the fares is also a worry.  Correct me if I'm wrong but if you get overcharged and then caught by the Ticket Hitlers with a negative balance apparently that's counted as fare evasion and you'll be fined.

Despite Denis Napthine's best efforts it looks like Geoff Shaw may be getting criminal charges for his very naughty misuse of government resources.  People in high places seldom ever actually get caught for doing corrupt things so when it's a clear cut case they should throw the book in my opinion; could result in a new state government but even if that happens I'm not holding my breath for any changes to this ridiculous user-unfriendly system.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you get overcharged and then caught by the Ticket Hitlers with a negative balance apparently that's counted as fare evasion and you'll be fined.

No correction required.  

Any ticketing system should be able to answer the fundamental question of "How much is it from A to B?" with a single cash value.  If you get discounts by purchasing a particular product or using the system in a particular way then great.  But Myki means there is no answer for those who ask that question.  That is very off-putting for anyone less than familiar with public transport such as our many visitors.

"We'd like to go to Sovereign Hill for the day.  How much will that be?"  
"Well Sir if you first buy this card and just do that it you need to load value but if you also do this and something else you need to add a different value .... "
"I just want to know how much it is to Sovereign Hill for two and two kids"
"I'm sorry Sir there isn't an definitive answer to that question"
"Thanks - We'll go rent a car"

I have already heard conversations in the workplace regarding the cost of taking the family to the Royal Melbourne Show (a traditional day out often by train) next week.  People who only use the train on this one occasion a year (if that) are comparing the prices from previous years.  It's more than doubled if you add in renting a Myki.

FAIL
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Gwiwer, you are right.
There should be a simple guide for Myki (metro) users and a guide for Myki (V/Line) users on fares.
But there isn't.
There are hidden charges (such as default fares) and extras (such as the 2 hour rule for Myki V/Line users) that are NOT told to the public in the course of general advertising, and the only way one would know about these things is if one trawled through the Myki web site, or were told by an over-eager public transport worker (booking person etc).

Now that Myki is available for V/Line travellers, how many of them know about cheaper fares on V/Line using Myki as compared to paper based V/Line tickets, or the 2 hour window from when one touches on? Or that Myki charges off peak fares on the wekend? Close to zero I'd expect.
  XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you get overcharged and then caught by the Ticket Hitlers with a negative balance apparently that's counted as fare evasion and you'll be fined.
don_dunstan
Strictly speaking, you can't touch on with a negative balance so if you are on a tram or train with a negative balance it's because you haven't touched on and are therefore very definitely committing an offence.

The only time that money is deducted from the card is upon touch-off, so nobody is going to find themselves in a situation where they're sitting down on the train and the myki, completely without outside influence, deducts another $10 just because it can.

Of course with no top-ups aboard trams there exists the potential for a passenger to leave a tram without touching off, then board another and attempt to touch on but be denied. Unfortunately, a passenger in that situation has no recourse but to travel illegally or to leave the tram as soon as possible.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I had a fairly swift response via SMS from my comment on fares to the Show above.  A friend is planning to take herself, a girlfriend and their combined total of seven children.  They last went three years ago and wondered how much it is now.  None, apparently, has a Myki card.

So let's start with nine Myki card fees (at least seven of which would be concession and cannot be purchased at an unattended station).  They need to go somewhere to buy the Mykis first and their local station is not staffed at any time.  They used to buy Metcards from the TVM.  

The cost soon became rather more than they felt comfortable with despite the alleged advantages of then having a Myki for future travel.  They clearly don't use public transport in the normal course of events.  This isn't going to change that.

Two more cars are probably headed for the Showgrounds now despite the fact that this will probably cost even more; they have cars anyway so the only "extras" are fuel and parking.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Strictly speaking, you can't touch on with a negative balance so if you are on a tram or train with a negative balance it's because you haven't touched on and are therefore very definitely committing an offence.
.......
jb17kx
I'm not sure you're right about that one; I've touched on and gone into negative balance at the start of a journey before so I know it's possible.

And having seen the Ticket-Hitlers in action on many occasions I know for a fact that there's no such thing as discretion.  If you are quite poor you won't be keeping much money on your Mickey and if it disappears faster than you were expecting without your noticing then you're screwed.  I've witnessed the behaviour enough times to know that some of them positively delight in wielding their authority and as Gwiwer observes, the unpredictable nature of how much you are going to be charged just adds to the customer experience.

I was on a number 16 tram once and they were detaining some poor (obviously psychotic) woman and when the police got there, delaying everyone else's tram journey, they actually told them off for wasting their time and resources and let her go.  I also think you have to be sadistic before you can even get a foot in the door with that job; I happened to overhear them chatting away once on a train and a female Hitler was relating to her colleagues with delight how she got the police to strip search a man in public because he had no identification and nobody to call.  Charming.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The cost soon became rather more than they felt comfortable with despite the alleged advantages of then having a Myki for future travel.  They clearly don't use public transport in the normal course of events.  This isn't going to change that.
Gwiwer

The people who seldom use the system are the ones they should be seeking to attract, but it actually works against that.

I have a friend who hates public transport with a passion - so much that he doesn't even like me using it.  He says it's for povos and alcoholics.  Mickey just adds another level of deterrent to trying to change those people's minds.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I was on a number 16 tram once and they were detaining some poor (obviously psychotic) woman and when the police got there, delaying everyone else's tram journey, they actually told them off for wasting their time and resources and let her go.  I also think you have to be sadistic before you can even get a foot in the door with that job; I happened to overhear them chatting away once on a train and a female Hitler was relating to her colleagues with delight how she got the police to strip search a man in public because he had no identification and nobody to call.  Charming.

The tactics used by Melbourne's AOs and particularly those of Yarra Trams (as referred to above) are strong-arm by any reasonable standards even with their user-unfriendly zero-tolerance approach but that is a discussion for another thread.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The tactics used by Melbourne's AOs and particularly those of Yarra Trams (as referred to above) are strong-arm by any reasonable standards even with their user-unfriendly zero-tolerance approach but that is a discussion for another thread.
Gwiwer
Yeah sorry to derail it for a moment but it's a salient point that there's zero tolerance for a card that's in deficit; as the owner of the card you're responsible at all times for the operation of it even if the equipment and processes can undermine your attempts to comply.  The fact that the enforcers behave like gleeful sadists when they find someone not complying adds another layer of deterrent really doesn't it.
  Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

Location: Lilydale, Vic
No correction required.  

Any ticketing system should be able to answer the fundamental question of "How much is it from A to B?" with a single cash value.  If you get discounts by purchasing a particular product or using the system in a particular way then great.  But Myki means there is no answer for those who ask that question.  That is very off-putting for anyone less than familiar with public transport such as our many visitors.
Gwiwer

Look - I'm not a huge fan of the whole Myki thing either but some of you guys are losing credibility by either deliberately making misleading statements or just showing you have no common sense. I went straight to the website and within seconds was able to determine that a one-way trip from Lilydale (point A) to Richmond (point B) would cost me $5.92 on a weekday. Making statements like the ones above makes it look like you need someone to tie your shoelaces as well.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
So does the announcement of the end of cash tickets for V/Line interurban mean that anyone from interstate who visits must also buy a Mickey if they want to catch a train to (say) Geelong?
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
So does the announcement of the end of cash tickets for V/Line interurban mean that anyone from interstate who visits must also buy a Mickey if they want to catch a train to (say) Geelong?
don_dunstan

No.

According to the V/Line web site:
The withdrawal of paper V/Line tickets only applies to periodical tickets (weeklies, monthlies, date-to-date, and annual tickets).
Paper tickets for single and return trips will still be available for the foreseeable future.

Link: V/Line and Myki
  XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Glasgow
The important word "periodical" has rather been left out of this article:
http://www.railpage.com.au/news/article-13142/

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