V Set Replacement

 
  Black Hoppers Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
Perhaps we can inject a little factual information into the medium-width-beyond-Springwood debate here.  A recent TOC waiver for transporting (wider than narrow outline) NDSF side dump wagons between Springwood and Lithgow contained the following restrictions

Past all platforms  20 km/h
On UP and Down Main from 109.430 km to 109.599 km (curve approaching Katoomba)  20 km/h
On UP Main from 123.5 km to 123 km (in the cutting between Blackheath and Mt Victoria)  20 km/h
On UP and Down Main between 126.720 km  and 126.980 km (Western end of Mt Victoria platforms to yard)  20 km/h
Through the Zig Zag tunnels 30 km/h


Now I don't know how the NDSF wagons compare size-wise with the medium width outline, but I can't find anything to suggest they have any restrictions through platforms in the medium width area.  So this suggests there is still work to do on platform clearances west of Springwood.

The Katoomba approach restriction (109.430-109.599) could be the dwarf signal clearance issue mentioned above.
"G20"


Definatly no problems with them inside the Metrop area and they can even be tipped while in a station alongside a platform.

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  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
Reading in the Blue Mountains Local Media... Labor attempted to shoot the Liberal government about OSCARs or the lack of replacement of V Sets etc...

If they actually did their homework, they would work out they LABOR ordered the OSCAR and were told they would not go past Springwood.... oops!
And the local community as an affection to V Sets over the OSCAR design anyway.

http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/2080774/labors-oscar-train-attack-backfires/?cs=1432

Mountains commuters are being shortchanged, says opposition transport spokeswoman Penny Sharpe.
Ms Sharpe met with Labor’s Blue Mountains spokesperson Trish Doyle at Springwood station on Monday, to discuss the lack of newer trains called “Oscars” on the network. The seven-year-old Oscars [Outer Suburban Cars] were infrequent on the Mountains network and commuters were instead being forced to ride “V-Sets” which could be up to 42 years old and were not as safe, said Ms Sharpe.“No Oscars go past Springwood and there seems to be fewer that are coming up here under the new timetable,” she said.


But Blue Mountains MP Roza Sage was appalled by Ms Sharpe’s claims about the Oscars as the trains were developed under the Labor government.

“It is nothing short of appalling that the opposition transport spokeswoman seems completely ignorant of the complete mess she and her Labor colleagues made of the train network.


“Had she done this [some basic research] she would be aware that Oscar trains have never run on the Upper Blue Mountains line since they were introduced by Labor, as the carriages are too wide for two services to safely pass each other. This is the sort of poor planning and neglect for the Blue Mountains we came to expect under Labor.”


Mrs Sharpe said the V-Sets were “between 25 and 42 years old” while the Oscars had “better accessibility including portable boarding ramps, fold-up seats to give room for people in wheelchairs and prams and also doors that automatically open”.
But Mrs Sage said “Blue Mountains commuters have told me more often than I can remember of their fondness for the comfortable V-Set carriages servicing the entire length of the Blue Mountains line. That is why the government made the decision to refresh the entire 200-strong Intercity V-Set fleet, so commuters can continue to enjoy their preferred carriages.”


Ms Sharpe said the real issue was “the plans beyond Springwood for the Blue Mountains line”.


“There are issues with the overhead maintenance of the wires, there are fewer cars running in the afternoon, there’s the huge gap at the top of the Mountains,” she said. “What is the plan for Blue Mountains commuting when, over time, you will have these trains that won’t be able to run anymore [due to issues with accessing the tunnels]?”
Safety and security were also issues. The newer trains were stocked with “security cameras and help points in every carriage” and were “better able to absorb the impact of a collision”, she said.


Ms Sharpe said a Freedom of Information request she made last year showed there had been a 25 per cent jump in complaints (mostly relating to cleanliness) and last financial year the Blue Mountains was the third most complained about line on the network of 19 lines, after the Central Coast and the western line.
Ms Doyle said she had also received “hundreds” of complaints about the new timetable and people were calling for restoration of some services.


A public transport community forum will be held this Saturday, February 15 from 2.30pm to 4.30pm at the Mid Mountains Neighbourhood Centre in Lawson. The forum will look at changes introduced with the new timetable, released in October last year. The forum will be opened by NSW Opposition leader John Robertson with speakers including commuter spokesman Michael Paag, Judy Finch (author of the Mind the Gap report), Suzan Mehmet (Mid Mountains Neighbourhood Centre) and Westmead health worker, Wendy Edmonds.


Of the forum, Mrs Sage said, “Labor is renowned for talking about transport — they did nothing but talk for 16 years while the train system fell apart around them”.
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
Reading in the Blue Mountains Local Media... Labor attempted to shoot the Liberal government about OSCARs or the lack of replacement of V Sets etc...

If they actually did their homework, they would work out they LABOR ordered the OSCAR and were told they would not go past Springwood.... oops!
And the local community as an affection to V Sets over the OSCAR design anyway.

http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/2080774/labors-oscar-train-attack-backfires/?cs=1432

Mountains commuters are being shortchanged, says opposition transport spokeswoman Penny Sharpe.
Ms Sharpe met with Labor’s Blue Mountains spokesperson Trish Doyle at Springwood station on Monday, to discuss the lack of newer trains called “Oscars” on the network. The seven-year-old Oscars [Outer Suburban Cars] were infrequent on the Mountains network and commuters were instead being forced to ride “V-Sets” which could be up to 42 years old and were not as safe, said Ms Sharpe.“No Oscars go past Springwood and there seems to be fewer that are coming up here under the new timetable,” she said.


But Blue Mountains MP Roza Sage was appalled by Ms Sharpe’s claims about the Oscars as the trains were developed under the Labor government.

“It is nothing short of appalling that the opposition transport spokeswoman seems completely ignorant of the complete mess she and her Labor colleagues made of the train network.


“Had she done this [some basic research] she would be aware that Oscar trains have never run on the Upper Blue Mountains line since they were introduced by Labor, as the carriages are too wide for two services to safely pass each other. This is the sort of poor planning and neglect for the Blue Mountains we came to expect under Labor.”


Mrs Sharpe said the V-Sets were “between 25 and 42 years old” while the Oscars had “better accessibility including portable boarding ramps, fold-up seats to give room for people in wheelchairs and prams and also doors that automatically open”.
But Mrs Sage said “Blue Mountains commuters have told me more often than I can remember of their fondness for the comfortable V-Set carriages servicing the entire length of the Blue Mountains line. That is why the government made the decision to refresh the entire 200-strong Intercity V-Set fleet, so commuters can continue to enjoy their preferred carriages.”


Ms Sharpe said the real issue was “the plans beyond Springwood for the Blue Mountains line”.


“There are issues with the overhead maintenance of the wires, there are fewer cars running in the afternoon, there’s the huge gap at the top of the Mountains,” she said. “What is the plan for Blue Mountains commuting when, over time, you will have these trains that won’t be able to run anymore [due to issues with accessing the tunnels]?”
Safety and security were also issues. The newer trains were stocked with “security cameras and help points in every carriage” and were “better able to absorb the impact of a collision”, she said.


Ms Sharpe said a Freedom of Information request she made last year showed there had been a 25 per cent jump in complaints (mostly relating to cleanliness) and last financial year the Blue Mountains was the third most complained about line on the network of 19 lines, after the Central Coast and the western line.
Ms Doyle said she had also received “hundreds” of complaints about the new timetable and people were calling for restoration of some services.


A public transport community forum will be held this Saturday, February 15 from 2.30pm to 4.30pm at the Mid Mountains Neighbourhood Centre in Lawson. The forum will look at changes introduced with the new timetable, released in October last year. The forum will be opened by NSW Opposition leader John Robertson with speakers including commuter spokesman Michael Paag, Judy Finch (author of the Mind the Gap report), Suzan Mehmet (Mid Mountains Neighbourhood Centre) and Westmead health worker, Wendy Edmonds.


Of the forum, Mrs Sage said, “Labor is renowned for talking about transport — they did nothing but talk for 16 years while the train system fell apart around them”.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Sitting in a V set this morning travelling to Mount Victoria in car 8122 which has the new livery. The purple seats and carpet are in mint condition. It is like a new car smell. I feel that I am in a limo or on the set of the SBS drama, "Going Home". As much as I had grown accustomed to the laminated wooden trim of the past, this new look gets my approval.

V sets are the way of the future.
  Johnny_Walton Railcorp Crash Test Dummy No.1

Location: Flemington Maintenance Centre
Sitting in a V set this morning travelling to Mount Victoria in car 8122 which has the new livery. The purple seats and carpet are in mint condition. It is like a new car smell. I feel that I am in a limo or on the set of the SBS drama, "Going Home". As much as I had grown accustomed to the laminated wooden trim of the past, this new look gets my approval.

V sets are the way of the future.
ANR

The reason that car you were riding in,
8122 was in mint condition is that IT WAS!
That set only entered service after the refurbishment this week.
Unfortunately it has probably bee n trashed by now.  Mad

Jono
  scott4570 Chief Train Controller

Talking of replacements, just a little note to mention.
An Intercity V set, that had been taken off the books, has been re-instated as from 17/02/14.


Set V20 had been taken out of service towards the end of June 2012, with the consist: 8033, 9033, 9035, 8035.
The cars were then subsequently written off the Books (or set aside) in early September 2012.

As a result, this left a Fleet of 49 x 4car sets.


From February this year, the set came back into service with the consist: 8045, 9035, 9033, 8059.
Car 8045 had been out of service since February 2012.
Car 8059 had been out of service since early September 2012.

This once again brings up a total Fleet of 50 x 4car sets, Targetted V1 to V50.


- Scott.
  wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The mystical lost principality of Daptovia
Sitting in a V set this morning travelling to Mount Victoria in car 8122 which has the new livery. The purple seats and carpet are in mint condition. It is like a new car smell. I feel that I am in a limo or on the set of the SBS drama, "Going Home". As much as I had grown accustomed to the laminated wooden trim of the past, this new look gets my approval.

V sets are the way of the future.
ANR

Glad to hear that you enjoy the refurbed V-sets so. You've described their most favourable perspective: from inside.

Because outside they look patently silly. As in a 40yo train hoping to fool everyone it is anything but, by the optimistic agency of some strategically placed patterns of paint.

The real way of the future would be a 21st century V-set replacement. Given who's governing & holding the purse strings, I for one am not holding my breath....
  LegendsofSteam Junior Train Controller

V Sets & XPT's are roughly the same age: average of 30+Yrs, Both are getting long in the tooth & serious replacements for both trains needs to be considered. The cheapest option would be a combined contract for fleet renewal of both fleets at once...

Sadly through, OSCars ARE the V Set Replacements like it or not! For the last 2 - 3Years they have been the mainstay of Sth Coast InterCity Services, as of the OCT. 20 2013 SWTT Change, they have begun infiltrating Newcastle Services, displacing the 2Car K Set Runs (formally Morrisset - Newcastle), now running as 4Car OSCars SYD - Newcastle instead...

Don't be surprised as Central Coast & Newcastle Line is thee busiest interurban line (followed by The Sth Coast) OSCars become the sole domain of this line running @ 130KPH where permitted with the timetable upgraded to match, I would hazard a guess that in time expect to see V Sets restricted solely to "The Mtns" running with services eventually cut back to Mt Vic. to keep the line open as no other train is suitable due to the narrow clearances reportedly!
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
Even the OSCar is an old design now. It was first drawn up 20 years ago, they spent a few years arguing if they were needed then the first lot were ordered back in 2003. Time to update their designs of the 'future'.
  AndyV Station Master

The oscars seem to be slowly replacing the intercity V sets on the Newcastle line. In the old timetable, the oscars only went as far as Wyong, and there were still lots of services to Gosford and Wyong run by V-sets, but since October 2013 the oscars now run all the way to and from Newcastle on some services. I would hate to be sitting in an oscar seat for that long, I find them so uncomfortable! I don't know how people put up with it!!
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The oscars seem to be slowly replacing the intercity V sets on the Newcastle line. In the old timetable, the oscars only went as far as Wyong, and there were still lots of services to Gosford and Wyong run by V-sets, but since October 2013 the oscars now run all the way to and from Newcastle on some services. I would hate to be sitting in an oscar seat for that long, I find them so uncomfortable! I don't know how people put up with it!!
AndyV

In the case you cited above, the OSCars replaced the K-Sets allocated to Newcastle - Morisset/Gosford runs. As a politcal move, they "joined" the Wyong/Morisset services up to give Newcastle a "half hourly service" to Central, rather than requiring people change trains.

I agree, they're not meant for through traffic, why someone would catch that train from Central to Newcastle I don't know, but then again it's not made clear to passengers that the express trains are faster and more comfortable.
  kg3000 Locomotive Driver

The real way of the future would be a 21st century V-set replacement. Given who's governing & holding the purse strings, I for one am not holding my breath....
wurx


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-08/new-fleet-of-intercity-commuter-trains-announced/5438480 ?
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
SMH version of the same story:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/28-billion-to-be-spent-on-airconditioned-trains-for-nsw-20140508-zr6q0.html
  mattb27j Chief Commissioner

Location: Berowra
SMH version of the same story:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/28-billion-to-be-spent-on-airconditioned-trains-for-nsw-20140508-zr6q0.html
jcouch

Ns DOUBLE-DECK INTERCITY TRAIN which runs from Amsterdam working in our network. If you look at all the rest of the double deckers in the world, all their doors are too low under the sydney network platform height.
  Piston Train Controller

Judging by the artists impression photos it appears the seating will be 2 x 2 facing each other. I would have to say that NSW commuters do not like this style of seating and would prefer the tip over seats so that all are facing in the forward direction.

I think the old LUB and BOB sets were the last use of face to face seating in NSW. When the XPT's were introduced half the seats faced forward and the other backwards. Passengers didn't like this style and they were all eventually changed over to rotating seats at a cost.

Imagine getting on an early train from Newcastle and having to sit opposite (and look at) some of the undesirables that move about on these trains. No one would sit next to or opposite them, so there goes three seats. As for providing a table, who gets to use it? Obviously the passengers who get on first. At least if you're sitting opposite someone playing cards you can tell them some moves.

Well Gladys didn't listen re making the North West line suitable for current trains and an integrated system, so why would she listen to commuters to provide all facing direction seats?
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Looks like this
  8603 Locomotive Driver

Location: Canberra
Looks like this
billybaxter

I quite like that! They come in a 1500V DC version, are the same width and height of a V-set, carry as many people as a V-set but with less length and allows passengers to walk from one end to the other. Just need infrastructure upgrades.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I quite like that! They come in a 1500V DC version, are the same width and height of a V-set, carry as many people as a V-set but with less length and allows passengers to walk from one end to the other. Just need infrastructure upgrades.
8603

European platform heights are usually either 550mm or 760mm.  We're (>?) 1200.  Most of those European trains wouldn't meet our crash standards either.  I don't think there is much in the way of "off the shelf" designs.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
European platform heights are usually either 550mm or 760mm. We're (>?) 1200. Most of those European trains wouldn't meet our crash standards either. I don't think there is much in the way of "off the shelf" designs.
djf01

We can always go back to UGL and ask them to put better seats in the OSCar design and make modifications (or redesigns) to the bogies and wheels to make the ride better. It should save some some money and time compared to a completly new design and it pleases those unions who want locals to build the trains.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

We can always go back to UGL and ask them to put better seats in the OSCar design and make modifications (or redesigns) to the bogies and wheels to make the ride better. It should save some some money and time compared to a completly new design and it pleases those unions who want locals to build the trains.
fixitguy

The problem with the A/H/S/T format (try pronouncing that acronym) is it doesn't have enough floor space for seated passengers.  Comfortable 2+2 seating delivers less capacity than single deck vehicle.  

Part of the issue with the ride is not just the bogies, but the short wheel base which is a requirement of our loading gauge.
  Johnny_Walton Railcorp Crash Test Dummy No.1

Location: Flemington Maintenance Centre
We can always go back to UGL and ask them to put better seats in the OSCar design and make modifications (or redesigns) to the bogies and wheels to make the ride better. It should save some some money and time compared to a completly new design and it pleases those unions who want locals to build the trains.
fixitguy

BAH!
People should realise that any train company will build WHATEVER the customer wants!
Of course cost will always be the issue of the local product.
As for specifications.
Look at the UGL built Prospector.
Good Passenger facilities, with fold down stairs for no platform access and normal platform access.
It travels at speeds up to 160km/h or can.
Ok its DMU, but well equipped trains can be built in this country.
The Government of the day Specified the OSC's.
EDI, Bombardier and UGL all bid for the contract!
UGL was successful and built the train as specified!

Jono.
  wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The mystical lost principality of Daptovia
BAH!
People should realise that any train company will build WHATEVER the customer wants!
Of course cost will always be the issue of the local product.
As for specifications.
Look at the UGL built Prospector.
Good Passenger facilities, with fold down stairs for no platform access and normal platform access.
It travels at speeds up to 160km/h or can.
Ok its DMU, but well equipped trains can be built in this country.
The Government of the day Specified the OSC's.
EDI, Bombardier and UGL all bid for the contract!
UGL was successful and built the train as specified!

Jono.
Johnny_Walton

What Jono said.

Such minor alterations as would be required - such as doors that would meet the average platform height on the railways of NSW - would be quite doable. Or surely ought to be.
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
We can always go back to UGL and ask them to put better seats in the OSCar design and make modifications (or redesigns) to the bogies and wheels to make the ride better. It should save some some money and time compared to a completly new design and it pleases those unions who want locals to build the trains.
fixitguy

The Minister admitted she does not like the OSCar as an Intercity train, they plan 520 cars, which is more than all the OSCars and V Sets combined and they have committed $5m each car.

With that, I hope we can safely say we wont see another OSCar design return....
Anyway, the OSCar does not go past Springwood, so that size can not be considered.

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