Auscision Models Blog

 
  brissim Chief Train Controller

Roachie - its always been my understanding there is only a single motorised power car in each standard set of 5 coaches and two power cars.

I've also wondered how this would go with the powered power car pushing from the rear. With my recently received SRM Explorer sets, they also only have a single powered car in each 2 or 3 car set. I run one of my Explorer sets as a 4 car set and I've had no problems when the powered car is pushing from the rear. However this may be different if you are pushing 6 or 7 dummy coaches from the rear in what I would call a full 7 car XPT set (ie 7 coaches with a power car at each end).

If I were to get an XPT set (I haven't yet and with this news about the lack of interiors I tending towards not bothering) I would perhaps also get one of the special livery standalone power cars (which are powered). But then of course as you have suggested, this might cause problems if their running qualities are not matched.

Tony

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  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Regarding the XPT.......

Am I correct in my understanding that the train will only have one "motorised" powered car (the other power car being a "dummy")?
Roachie
That is correct: "7 Car Set (1 x Power Car, 5 x Passenger Cars & 1 x non powered Trailer Car)"
  Lloyd1952 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney, Australia
The real XPT's go past my place everyday and at night you can see everything! During the day the interior detail is also visible.
If you look at the photos of the Endeavours in the current AMRM, the interiors are a highlight,. Of course I happily run Lima TAM's and Powerline FS/BS carriages and forget to notice their emptiness. With big windows and lighting, the XPT and V Sets may look more naked. By comparison the On Track BOB cars offer very high internal detail which will be much harder to see. I wonder if the picture frames in their carriages will come with decals of NSW black and white scenery photos.
In the model world, having one powered unit pushing the rest of the train does raise tracking questions but the other big issue is sound. If you fit DCC sound, you are going to need it in both units front and rear. The sound gap between both working units is very obvious
Lloyd
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Roachie - its always been my understanding there is only a single motorised power car in each standard set of 5 coaches and two power cars.

I've also wondered how this would go with the powered power car pushing from the rear. With my recently received SRM Explorer sets, they also only have a single powered car in each 2 or 3 car set. I run one of my Explorer sets as a 4 car set and I've had no problems when the powered car is pushing from the rear. However this may be different if you are pushing 6 or 7 dummy coaches from the rear in what I would call a full 7 car XPT set (ie 7 coaches with a power car at each end).

If I were to get an XPT set (I haven't yet and with this news about the lack of interiors I tending towards not bothering) I would perhaps also get one of the special livery standalone power cars (which are powered). But then of course as you have suggested, this might cause problems if their running qualities are not matched.

Tony
brissim
There should be no problem pushing 7 cars plus a dummy power car around a layout. I have seen it done with Lima XPT's at speed. It probably had body mounted couplers, but to be honest I cant remember. I push trains much longer than an XPT when shunting. For DCC sound one alternative is to run 2 wires through the set and place a second speaker in the dummy unit if you want to save on the cost of a second sound unit.

Terry Flynn.
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p
Interior lighting is a bit of a hit & miss, but when the contacts work ok the lighting affects are quite ok though.  The thing is that all Air conditioned Rolling Stock were fitted with interior lighting & the lights were on day & night, until turned out by train crews.
"a6et"


The Trainbuilder cars are all lit internally and have capacitors to provide constant lighting. They actually stay lit for up to 10 mins after the power goes off. No flickering and it's very realistic. While those cars are obviously at a different price point in the market, it does demonstrate that lighting can be done properly

Regarding the lack of interior in the XPT, I find it very surprising given the cost of the models. I would expect at least some seats. The simple fact is you can see into the XPT cars and trying to tell us otherwise is misleading IMHO. The only time you can't is when the sun reflects off the windows and you get that metallic effect, but this is not all the time. In my opinion, a better way to do it would simply be to use tinted plastic for the windows and not worry about the metallic reflective effect.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

The real XPT's go past my place everyday and at night you can see everything! During the day the interior detail is also visible.
Lloyd1952
From their own site: http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/images/XPT%20Albury%20111982%20-%2004.jpg,
http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/images/XPT%20Nov%201981%20005.jpg

Regarding the lack of interior in the XPT, I find it very surprising given the cost of the models. I would expect at least some seats. The simple fact is you can see into the XPT cars and trying to tell us otherwise is misleading IMHO.
VRfan
VRFan, the following drawing shows interiors: http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/images/1%20xpt.jpg
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

With the power car at one end issue, with no interior and orange glazed windows, it would make more sense for one of the middle cars to be powered, so even on a seven car set you are pushing three and pulling three. I would think that would be operationally superior.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

With the power car at one end issue, with no interior and orange glazed windows, it would make more sense for one of the middle cars to be powered, so even on a seven car set you are pushing three and pulling three. I would think that would be operationally superior.
Dazz
No it would be silly. I do not wish to hear motor noise out of a passenger car and where do you hide the motor. I could think of nothing worse. There is no problem pushing 7 cars, it's a non issue if designed properly.

Terry Flynn.
  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
No it would be silly. I do not wish to hear motor noise out of a passenger car and where do you hide the motor. I could think of nothing worse. There is no problem pushing 7 cars, it's a non issue if designed properly.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855
When attending a truck show in Hanover I noticed many suburban loco hauled services running with the engine either pushing or pulling.  Did not go any slower in the direction with the train leading the power vehicle. Of course that is real railways and not models, but works for them.

I will not be buying an XPT, but if I did buy a set I would prefer an engine each end a la prototype.  More expensive of course, but its only money.  Think of all the pleasure you get from watching and hearing an XPT with power each end! Laughing

Best regards,
John
  PeltonPinch Locomotive Fireman

I tend to think that if you had a powered locomotive at each end, there could be operational problems. If for some reason the lead locomotive were to run into a dead track section, this would halt that locomotive, yet the rear loco would still be pushing. Now, if this rather long 7 car XPT were to be straddling a curve or two at the time, and the rear loco were trying to push a dead weight through the length of the train, a rather nasty derailment would likely occur.

If anyone would like to experiment with say, a frw HUB or N cars and a pair of speed matched locomotives (running in consist, but physically located at either end of the train) & report back, I'm sure we'd all like to hear the results. I'm not really keen to give it a go myself though Smile

Given that most people would want a decoder in the dummy car for swtching lights etc, it would be no effort to put a duplicate sound decoder of the same type & address used in the motor car with a resistor in place of the motor. You'll get the look & the sound, and if the build quality is the same as Auscision have supplied previously, it will run just as well in either direction! Admittedly, if the sound is affected by the BEMF of the decoder as it is in some, this will add a degree of difficulty, but I'm thinking that for most it should be ok. XPTs run constant revs anyway Smile
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
I tend to think that if you had a powered locomotive at each end, there could be operational problems. If for some reason the lead locomotive were to run into a dead track section, this would halt that locomotive, yet the rear loco would still be pushing. Now, if this rather long 7 car XPT were to be straddling a curve or two at the time, and the rear loco were trying to push a dead weight through the length of the train, a rather nasty derailment would likely occur.

If anyone would like to experiment with say, a frw HUB or N cars and a pair of speed matched locomotives (running in consist, but physically located at either end of the train) & report back, I'm sure we'd all like to hear the results. I'm not really keen to give it a go myself though Smile
PeltonPinch

I, too, would be interested to see the results if somebody could test this (or a similar) scenario. I don't have access to my layout at present, so am unable to conduct it myself.
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

No it would be silly. I do not wish to hear motor noise out of a passenger car and where do you hide the motor. I could think of nothing worse. There is no problem pushing 7 cars, it's a non issue if designed properly.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855

I'd still be placing the speakers in both end "power" cars no matter what car is actually powered, so no difference to one motored car at one end and a dummy unit at the other end with speakers in both.

Also, it's not hard to hide the motor in a passenger car when you can't see through the non see through orange tinted windows, as it has been stated they will come with!

"if designed properly" assumes that a: they are, and b: everyones track is spot on. Personally I'd not be betting with Tom Waterhouse on those odds ...... haha
  a6et Minister for Railways

The Trainbuilder cars are all lit internally and have capacitors to provide constant lighting. They actually stay lit for up to 10 mins after the power goes off. No flickering and it's very realistic. While those cars are obviously at a different price point in the market, it does demonstrate that lighting can be done properly

Regarding the lack of interior in the XPT, I find it very surprising given the cost of the models. I would expect at least some seats. The simple fact is you can see into the XPT cars and trying to tell us otherwise is misleading IMHO. The only time you can't is when the sun reflects off the windows and you get that metallic effect, but this is not all the time. In my opinion, a better way to do it would simply be to use tinted plastic for the windows and not worry about the metallic reflective effect.
VRfan

Based on the 2 types of carriages that I have with internal lights, Austrains, FS/BS & CCA set, the FS/BS are fairly flickery owing to the use of small kadee like springs, not really proving all that great, I know of others who have experienced the same with them.  The CCA 2 car set, has brass rods instead of the springs & are much more reliable although they can at times flicker.

The heavy tint of the XPT is not really needed for models, at least from my perspective, & has been pointed out much depends on the sun's position as to how intense it is.  The same thin applied to the old HUB & RUB cars that had light green tinted windows. For the modeller, the simple need is to have a thin orange sheet as a cover on the windows, thus still allowing the interior to be seen.

The alternative of course is the clear coloured tint type paints that are used on signals such as green or orange, no reason why that cannot be a factory process.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Based on the 2 types of carriages that I have with internal lights, Austrains, FS/BS & CCA set, the FS/BS are fairly flickery owing to the use of small kadee like springs, not really proving all that great, I know of others who have experienced the same with them.  The CCA 2 car set, has brass rods instead of the springs & are much more reliable although they can at times flicker.
a6et
This is why as VRfan says, the Trainbuilder cars have electronic circuits with capacitors to store voltage, this completely eliminates flickering.
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p
From their own site: http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/images/XPT%20Albury%20111982%20-%2004.jpg,
http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/images/XPT%20Nov%201981%20005.jpg

VRFan, the following drawing shows interiors: http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/images/1%20xpt.jpg
"Newcastle Express"


So do they or don't they have interiors??? People are posting in here saying they Have been told the cars will not have an interior
  2LaGrange Train Controller

I would say with the winging about no interiors recently the price of a set now going up to $1100 for XPT set so those that have not already ordered ,you will get interiors at $200 extra ouch.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

At VRFan, we do not know, the drawings suggest that they will come with interiors, but we have been told they are not.
It's making customers to believe that a product comes with XYZ, when it doesn't, according to them anyway.

At 2LaGrange, I don't know what you mean by "winging", but it is important of how a company, no matter what product, to advertise correctly.

If the XPT drawing showed that it has no interiors, then that is a different matter altogether.

And also 2LaGrange, for $895, we would expect them to include interiors. Allowing for a certain cost of the powered unit, that's well in excess of $100 for what are basically six empty rectangular boxes on wheels.

What we can't understand is why are they saying it will cost $150 extra for interiors, when you can get interiors for $10 and under. While they don't have a powered loco, their Victorian N & E car sets are an example. And from what we've just seen, while still slightly expensive, possibly a bit better value.
  2LaGrange Train Controller

Newcastle When i ordered my XPT i read the order form list of details and looked at XPT page on website and no where does it mention that the car comes with interiors hence my comment about winging,what do you want them to do list all the things it does not have,eg the model is not N scale,the model is not O gauge the model will not come with a working toaster in the buffet car,how is it in anyway deceptive is beyond me.If its not listed its not a feature.The fact that you think they should have interiors doesnt mean they have to do it.Tooling all the different car interiors would be expensive and as i said previously the cars worked out at $80.00 each before the price rise.I will ask them at liverpool show but im guessing the price rise has something to do with aussie dollar going down and possibly car interiors if they are tooling them.Auscision sell interiors for N and E cars for 19.95 and the only reason they are that cheap would be they had to tool them for the cars anyway and got extras made at the same time.Tooling a car or loco the costs are similar so they are boxes with wheels..expensive ones.
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
Basically it's going on what someone said here, there's no mention either way (site/blog/order forms etc) if they definitely will or will not have interiors, right?

Pictures on the site show they'll have them, but no marketing material actually says the words.

Wolfpac
  meh Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
2LaGrange you are obviously against the complaints here but I would hardly call it whinging, as per the photos above of the prototype the windows only have the orange tint in certain angles of sunlight, and the interior is quite noticeable otherwise. What is disappointing is that Auscision have done the interiors (very nicely might I add) on the N cars and E cars. It is a shame that they won't be doing them on the XPT. It is granted they do work out to be about $89 per car (say $250/ power car $200/ dummy) but, from what has been said, the windows will be made with a film over them making it difficult to include interiors aftermarket; provided the bodies can even be opened and accessed.
The N cars work out to be roughly $130 each ($450 per pack, minus say $60 for the van), but the interiors are a highlight, and i'm sure people would be willing to pay more for that extra piece of realism; I know I would. However now I am not.
Bringing up a point I raised earlier, and also by Newcastle Express, you are (before the price rise mind you) paying $89 for an empty box, not too much different from the louvred vans, and before you say "they have to tool different bodies", they have had to do the same thing with the vans, and the only real difference is the location of windows. They have even modelled the different body version of the same time of locomotives, with no price rise.
So my point is why would you pay $89 (again, before the rise) for something which is not much different to the $60 vans? If you have different thoughts on this please share and explain; that's what we are all here for.
They have made no mention of the interiors being included with this price rise, and I would imagine they would have made that a point from the get-go to justify the increase.
Again I'm not slandering Auscision, I am a past, present and future customer of theirs. However I do believe that legitimate points have been raised here. If I do make it to the Liverpool show I hope to ask one of them about it in person, and I may get a perfectly understandable answer. Until such time I will hold onto my $$ and invest elsewhere.
  brissim Chief Train Controller

Again I'm not slandering Auscision, I am a past, present and future customer of theirs. However I do believe that legitimate points have been raised here. If I do make it to the Liverpool show I hope to ask one of them about it in person, and I may get a perfectly understandable answer. Until such time I will hold onto my $$ and invest elsewhere.
meh

Without repeating all of meh's post, this pretty much sums up my feeling on the lack of interiors on the XPTs and V Sets. I'm glad I hadn't yet put down a deposit on an XPT and will not be. There are just too many other items for me to spend my money on and know I'm getting what I would call a complete product. When the news about the lack of interiors first "broke" one of the first things I checked was that interiors was mentioned for the RUB sets (and they are). Thanks to both meh and Newcastle Express for bringing this issue to at least my attention. I mean for $895 for a XPT set with 5 coaches I simply assumed interiors would be included.

A question I would put to all those to have put down deposits (or fully paid) on the XPTs. At the time you paid you money were you aware the models were coming without interior detail on the coach cars?

Tony
  2LaGrange Train Controller

Sorry but in my opinion it is winging as i previously stated it is hard to see inside the XPT and im not fussed if they dont come with an interior and would rather that than pay more for interiors.I will say it one more time nowhere on the order form or XPT page on website does it mention interiors in the cars.It does say the loco will come with interior details so if the cars did it would have been listed also.I also said that they may now come with interiors with the price rise however they did not mention that when informing us via FB of price rise.We dont know if V sets will come with interiors yet.I got the impression that because both the XPT and V sets have orange tinted windows that tend to reflect sunlight and make it difficult to see inside Auscision were not going to bother with interiors and that would keep prices of models cheaper.Obviously with N cars and E cars with clear windows they put interiors in cars.Hopefully we will get more info on V set and XPT samples at liverpool show.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
A question I would put to all those to have put down deposits (or fully paid) on the XPTs. At the time you paid you money were you aware the models were coming without interior detail on the coach cars?

Tony
brissim

Checking my records I see my fully paid invoice is dated 22/12/10, that's just 2 months after the models were announced and long before any CAD drawing was released. OMG, they've had my $4000 for almost 3yrs. I might have to seriously rethink my plans to also buy the unannounced liveries.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Newcastle, When i ordered my XPT i read the order form list of details and looked at XPT page on website and no where does it mention that the car comes with interiors
2LaGrange


Basically it's going on what someone said here, there's no mention either way (site/blog/order forms etc) if they definitely will or will not have interiors
wolfpac
It mentions it by having said drawing, and Wolfpac, that drawing is part of the marketing tools.

Bringing up a point I raised earlier, and also by Newcastle Express, you are (before the price rise mind you)
meh
Price rise? How much was a set before $895?
  a6et Minister for Railways

RE the whinging aspect.  Some time ago models from other importers arrived without items that were distinctly in the advertised items, & the importer just ignored it, also another item or two had areas of mistakes discovered after the models arrived. During the various discussions on RP regarding each of these issues a question was posed when the it was found that some of the errors were evident in the pre production samples, & if they were of sufficient concern then those issues should have been raised at that point & not after the models arrived.  The reason being that it was too late once they had been signed off on & had arrived.

There was a lot of truth in that aspect of being too late after a model arrives to be kicking up about errors & omissions excepted, but in this case this is an issue that is raised prior to any samples arriving & a much better time frame for those wanting these models to make known their feelings & to ask questions regarding them.

The other aspect that is needed to be considered is that it is now pretty well standard that all passenger carriages for the HO & larger scales come with internal details in them, including lights, in affect these items have to an extent become de-facto standards..  It is not hard to have the windows with a low density film placed over them, that allows them to be see through as well as having the coloured tint on them.  Many modellers have used the coloured clear tints for windows in the past, along with the various plastic binders, they shade but do not hide the detail, in the same basic way as found on the 1:1 gauge models.

The window sun reflection film is worse when the sun is directly on the windows, & at that point of time especially when the sun is low is when its hard to see through the windows, but as the sun rises & gets off the windows they are more see through.  Also, the orange tint is being removed & has been for some time now.

Hollywood & VRfan.  RE the Trainbuilder carriages.  Good point re the capacitors, & actually begs the question why are they not fitted to all the carriages that come with internal lighting, as my understanding they are not an expensive item to purchase & I think a lot cheaper for a Chinese RTR model with a Chinese fitted capacitor would not add a lot to the cost if at all.  

While not using them as an excuse, there is a bit of a price difference between the excellent Trainbuilder models compared to the Austrains ones, I think that if lights are going to continue being part of the carriage world, then they need to made to work reliably, & while the FO/CCA carriages are a bit improvement on the first run FS/BS, they could still be improved.  For me I see too many models that are improving let down by simple & small omissions.

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