A-City trains

 
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

I was told there are 4000s which have been delivered to Dry Creek. Is this right?

I was told by same source that there is a short length of electrified track at Dry Creek used for testing and training.

In that nothing of this has been mentioned here by those sound informed I am very doubtful about the advice I received.

Can anybody advise?

One other question regarding the 600 hour warranty period. Is this 600 hours have to elapse before the units can go into revenue service?

Regards
Ian

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  Jumbo2001 Junior Train Controller

I was told there are 4000s which have been delivered to Dry Creek. Is this right?

I was told by same source that there is a short length of electrified track at Dry Creek used for testing and training.

In that nothing of this has been mentioned here by those sound informed I am very doubtful about the advice I received.

Can anybody advise?

One other question regarding the 600 hour warranty period. Is this 600 hours have to elapse before the units can go into revenue service?

Regards
Ian
steam4ian

Hi Ian,

You would be very wise to doubt the information you have received. There are no 4000's at Dry Creek, and there is no electrified track at Dry Creek. However, the 4000 class SIMULATOR has arrived at Dry Creek, and is being installed in its shed at the moment. So perhaps that is where this information came from, and was just slightly incorrect. Smile

And the Commissioning period is 500km's. No other measurement. It is 500km's of fault free running before it is handed over to the Rail Commissioner for revenue service.

They would have an extensive warranty outside of this issue.

Cheers
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
They would have an extensive warranty outside of this issue.
"Jumbo2001"
One might hope so!
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
Does anyone know how many units are expected to be required for the Seaford services to commence operation come 2014?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Jumbo

Thank you for the clarification, unfortunately I had reason to doubt my "source".

Thank you also for endorsing my worst fears about the commissioning period and hand over.

Only two units delivered so far.
All new units have to put in about 8 return trips ARS to Seaford before they can be used.
That will take weeks to get the units available if they have to run interleaved with DMU services.

Oh, when will we get trains back to Noarlunga Centre?

Ian
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Does anyone know how many units are expected to be required for the Seaford services to commence operation come 2014?
yoyoman

Probably almost all of the 22 cars would be required if there is going to be an increased frequency (Maybe 18 to 20) and last I heard the government intends to run electric train services in Feb next year so there is every chance 3000 and 4000 cars will be used simultaneously on the line.

3000 class railcars could probably be used for express services to Noarlunga and Seaford since they obviously have lower acceleration than the electric trains. But either way as it stands the Seaford extension going public is either going to get massively delayed or the government is just going to end up running 3000s to Seaford. Given the amount of testing required and the delivery rate of these trains if they dont intend on running 3000s to Seaford its going to be a very long time before that extension goes public. The only viable option is to have 3000s on the line in a limited express service stop and have the electric trains used for the services that stop more often.
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
I would expect the Guv'ment would 'like' to have electric services running before the election in March (as this 'might' be the only hope Chloe Fox has of saving her seat, but I doubt it with only 0.4% margin) but at the current rate of delivery I can't see it happening until sometime in the second quarter of 2014 at best.

So far they have 2 delivered over a period of 2-3 months?  The current delivery rate is going to have to be increased significantly if that target is going to be achieved and at this point I can't see it happening.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

On this or a related thread Justapax (I think it was) worked out that 16 sets would be required.

I am not sure if he allowed for the proposed increase in Tonsley services.

There was an over order of the 4000s due to the cancellation/deferring of the Gawler line electrification.

Ian
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
On this or a related thread Justapax (I think it was) worked out that 16 sets would be required.

I am not sure if he allowed for the proposed increase in Tonsley services.

There was an over order of the 4000s due to the cancellation/deferring of the Gawler line electrification.

Ian
"steam4ian"
Yes, a while ago I cautioned 'Turbo' Tom about shutting up before he made himself look like a total fool, sadly he seems not to read RP (no surprise) or if he does  he does not take good advice. Yesterday at the (poorly planned) community forum at Hallett Cove he told attendees 'the electric trains are running on time'. Well, no they are not, 16 required sets at one car per week is another 42 weeks, having 'most' services electric will take 9 sets, that's 21 weeks. Then there's testing...

They'd want to get a wriggle on, 21 weeks from now will only just get it done before the election, and leaves little time to campaign with them... On time for early 2014 electrified services Tom? It would seem not.
  Jumbo2001 Junior Train Controller

Jumbo

Thank you for the clarification, unfortunately I had reason to doubt my "source".

Thank you also for endorsing my worst fears about the commissioning period and hand over.

Only two units delivered so far.
All new units have to put in about 8 return trips ARS to Seaford before they can be used.
That will take weeks to get the units available if they have to run interleaved with DMU services.

Oh, when will we get trains back to Noarlunga Centre?

Ian
steam4ian

I am lead to believe that deliveries will increase to one complete set a fortnight in the not to distant future. There were delays because 4001 wasn't complete and delivered 'early', so 4003 and so forth should not be too far away. Alot of the delays were on this end with no electricity, when 4001 was delivered the electrification of Seaford yard had not been complete, so those caused issues to back up.

As for the running, from all reports 4001 seems to be running without fault (after initial bugs). Also keep in mind, that extensive (ie: greater than the usual) commissioning was required on 4001 being first of the type, to create benchmarks using this consist on the Rail Commissioner railway. I believe these benchmarks have been now signed off, so 4002 shouldn't take too long to commission and be ready to go.

As for Noarlunga, differing answers from work on this one. Logic suggests that it wont before December 15th (that is, the end date of electrification works necessitating the closure of the Belair line between 2000-0600 Mon-Fri and all day Sat-Sun. My mail has somewhere between December 15th and February some time.

No proposed rosters have been given for Noarlunga at work, and they have to be given with 6 weeks notice minimum for consultation with relevant committees. So if you do the maths, you know it wont be before December.

Finally - for Tonsley, when it is reopened, the frequency wont be at 15mins, and it will not be at that level for quite a while. It will be 30min frequency at a maximum for a while. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3000's operate most of the Tonsley's given light patronage, thus leaving the EMUs for the heavier Seaford work.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

At this point, the best possible move to save face would be to get the line open and start running DMUs all the way to Seaford. The shrinking portion of the general public who are still persisting with public transport don't give a rat's about the EMUs, they just want the substitute bus pain to end. The delays to the completion of electrification will not make a material difference to the eventual commencement date of electric service when EMUs are trickling over the border once every couple of months.

Laing O'Rourke can be given one month to push hard on the electrification work (maybe get all their fly-in teams here at once?) while the "signalling" work is being done. Whatever isn't done by then will have to get done with night and weekend works, at the cost to them of $150 per night hardship compensation to every resident living within 300 metres of an active site if they want to have a chance at working in SA any time in the next 50 years. It's time to tell the contractors that amateur hour is over!

On this or a related thread Justapax (I think it was) worked out that 16 sets would be required.

I am not sure if he allowed for the proposed increase in Tonsley services.
"steam4ian"
Yes, that was me and I was very open about stating it was based only on replacing the most recent full timetable of 2009-11 before any increase in services which might or might not happen (using the same signal block lengths as before might not allow for an increase in track occupancy) and adding three units to account for the extension of Noarlunga trains to Seaford. That is 16 units in service at once during the height of the morning/afternoon peak, not including hot spares or units on maintenance cycles.

I'll defend that number on the issue of Tonsley though - I calculated that months before the Tonsley passing loop project was announced. More importantly, it's now right again as the fine print about Tonsley mentions only a half-hourly peak service with the capacity for a future four trains an hour service maybe there for the future (if the junction has the capacity without a flyover). There were already three trains an hour to/from Tonsley during the peaks of the previous full timetable, so if half-hourly peak services are on the cards it looks more like a decrease in peak service to Tonsley is likely to happen.

Taking that number of 16, you then need to add in a hot spare ready for immediate service in a siding/platform at Adelaide, a hot spare at the Seaford Meadows depot for the same deal, and one or two on a maintenance cycle. That takes it up to 19-20, which is close enough to the full fleet in use once the remaining 2-3 units are used to increase the number of services or the capacity on premium weekday peak and post-event services - has a crowd of 540 adults actually put Bombardier's claims about the A-City's capacity to the test yet?

Based on that, it would probably be best to keep the 4000 fleet dedicated to the Seaford/Tonsley line. Electrification of the full line to Gawler Central (or hopefully Concordia) and OH/Grange lines could be delayed until the 3000/3100 fleet begins to approach life expiry and a new-build EMU order made for those lines with a transparent public competition open to manufacturers like Siemens, Alstom, CAF, Stadler, Hitachi and Polaris - but not Bombardier, their current behaviour seems to indicate they wouldn't want the work and they might still be too busy finishing off this order to put together a bid.

I am lead to believe that deliveries will increase to one complete set a fortnight in the not to distant future.
"Jumbo2001"
Didn't they say that back in July before deliveries were ramped up to one complete set every two months? By my count that came after four separate "they're on the way, the first one is coming in a few weeks" hoaxes this year which named dates in January, March, April and June before the first unit finally got delivered (partially incomplete!) in late July. LOOK, A WOLF!!

A helpful tip people - if either Bombardier or the government issue a press release about anything to do with the new EMUs in the near future that includes a mention of the sky being blue, look outside.
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
a new-build EMU order made for those lines with a transparent public competition open to manufacturers like Siemens, Alstom, CAF, Stadler, Hitachi and Polaris - but not Bombardier, their current behaviour seems to indicate they wouldn't want the work and they might still be too busy finishing off this order to put together a bid.

A helpful tip people - if either Bombardier or the government issue a press release about anything to do with the new EMUs in the near future that includes a mention of the sky being blue, look outside.
justapassenger
Ahh, the old conspiracy theory chestnut, it's been a while since you dragged your mis-informed pet hate out.
But then you do have all the answers don't you.
A helpful tip people - ignore this garbage he comes out with.

Wayne
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I am lead to believe that deliveries will increase to one complete set a fortnight in the not to distant future. There were delays because 4001 wasn't complete and delivered 'early', so 4003 and so forth should not be too far away. Alot of the delays were on this end with no electricity, when 4001 was delivered the electrification of Seaford yard had not been complete, so those caused issues to back up.

As for the running, from all reports 4001 seems to be running without fault (after initial bugs). Also keep in mind, that extensive (ie: greater than the usual) commissioning was required on 4001 being first of the type, to create benchmarks using this consist on the Rail Commissioner railway. I believe these benchmarks have been now signed off, so 4002 shouldn't take too long to commission and be ready to go.

As for Noarlunga, differing answers from work on this one. Logic suggests that it wont before December 15th (that is, the end date of electrification works necessitating the closure of the Belair line between 2000-0600 Mon-Fri and all day Sat-Sun. My mail has somewhere between December 15th and February some time.

No proposed rosters have been given for Noarlunga at work, and they have to be given with 6 weeks notice minimum for consultation with relevant committees. So if you do the maths, you know it wont be before December.

Finally - for Tonsley, when it is reopened, the frequency wont be at 15mins, and it will not be at that level for quite a while. It will be 30min frequency at a maximum for a while. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3000's operate most of the Tonsley's given light patronage, thus leaving the EMUs for the heavier Seaford work.
"Jumbo2001"
You forgot to mention the fight for a 'new technologies' pay rise before the training even starts. On that Tommy K told us the other day that such training for driving under the wires had occurred 'extensively' already...
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Ahh, the old conspiracy theory chestnut, it's been a while since you dragged your mis-informed pet hate out.
But then you do have all the answers don't you.
A helpful tip people - ignore this garbage he comes out with.

Wayne
"hosk1956"
Unfortunately, a review of facts suggests JAP's garbage is to much of an extent true. The Minister told the attendees at Hallett Cove that the electric trains were 'on time'. Unfortunately for him some of us recall the 'one complete set every three weeks, arriving from January' and think that two complete units delivered after the middle of July constitute something of a lateness...
  Halo Chief Train Controller

At the current rate, they should start deliveries of 4003 in a couple weeks.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

A couple of weeks on and we still only have two units!

On the Premier's website at http://www.premier.sa.gov.au/strongersa/pdf/building_a_stronger_sa--public_transport.pdf there is a projection of the remaining deliveries taking 18 months, putting the operation of a complete EMU fleet at mid-late 2015 - that's good news for Jumbo fetishists who can enjoy the carcinogenic particulate clouds on the Gawler line for another couple of years.
  rail_road_runner Station Staff

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Howdy all,

Happy to report the spotting of 4003 'T' unit on Victor Harbour Rd, heading to Seaford rail yard.
So im guessing the 4003 'A' end is there already,
so 'B' end should be 3 to 6 days away.
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
There has been discussion over the past few months about the weight of the A-City units.  This afternoon I was able to chase 4001 on its escape north of Noarlunga and was able to take photos of the body lettering.  These revealed the following vital statistics:

A & B motor cars: tare 46.7 T; 60.0 T; length 25.255 m
T trailer car: tare 43.5 T; gross 58.5 T; length 24.710 m

Alex C
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Well done Alex.
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Well done Alex.
steam4ian
Ian,

My being out today was largely due to the rumours reported by others in the forum.  I can report that the tiger tails are still on the overhead at Hove LX.  The current limit of electrification is the overlap just S of Jetty Road.  The section to Hove is well and truly earthed at the overlap and obviously the bonds between the two catenary sections at the overlap have not yet been installed.

Alex C
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

The Tiger Tails are stil there, saw them again this morning.
Also noticed earthing to the conductors at Jetty Road last night.

Good to see 4003 being delivered. I did hear rumours of some problem at Bombardier.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The Tiger Tails are stil there, saw them again this morning.
Also noticed earthing to the conductors at Jetty Road last night.

Good to see 4003 being delivered. I did hear rumours of some problem at Bombardier.
steam4ian
I heard that they were running a bit behind with their production schedule. Not sure why though.
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
I heard that they were running a bit behind with their production schedule. Not sure why though.
railblogger
Design problems I've heard.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Design problems I've heard.
Tonsley213
'Disagreements' in design, Bombardier think they're great as is, which is understandable. Probably among other things, DPTI are not keen on losing part of a person in the coupler opening.
  nscaler69 Deputy Commissioner

Location: There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
EXCLUSIVE: Adelaide's Eyewitness News joins Labor Ministers for a secret test ride on the embattled electric line to Seaford.
https://www.facebook.com/tenadelaide
Ten Eyewitness News Adelaide

http://tenplay.com.au/news/adelaide/2013/11/13/secret-test

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