Noarlunga Line Shutdown

 
  gustovski Beginner

they could tow the 4000s up to dry creek behind a jumbo or 2000 or a freight loco

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

they could tow the 4000s up to dry creek behind a jumbo or 2000 or a freight loco
"gustovski"
No, a 2000 (which is a Jumbo - unless you're suggesting 747 haulage which would be a no-go thanks to loading gauge issues) can't go anywhere that the EMU can get to or from.

The plan is to use 3000/3100 DMUs to haul the A-City EMUs to Dry Creek on the occasions they need to get there for certain heavy maintenance jobs as they have mechanically compatible couplers - just like they've been doing at the Seaford Meadows depot to shunt the EMU cars when they get off the truck. It should be pretty rare though, modern EMUs are all designed with modular components which could be swapped at Seaford Meadows and the removed component taken to Dry Creek in the back of a ute.

That's a lie. Not from you Halo, from DPTI.
"Aaron"
As they say: lies, damned lies and statistics.

I would read that chart as saying it's 63% complete, based on the essential component with the slowest progress. Even that would be optimistic as there's still testing and commissioning to come before it becomes operational.

And to think this time last year certain Jumbo enthusiasts were going bananas over the last chances to see them in action because we were being told the line would reopen with electric services to Seaford after the closure and the decrepit relics could be sent off to be recycled into something useful.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Recycling 2000s (Jumbos) to something useful. They are stainless steel; urinals comes to mind.

Neil asked a question earlier about programming of the signalling works now used as an excuse for delays to the line opening.

The works were started very late; much too late.

From the little participation I had in the various projects I suggest it was originally intended to retain the existing system and make it suitable by means of impedance bonds at the track circuit joints and other add on hardware. No or minimal allowance was made for additional conduits. The present system on other lines has ac track circuits and is of a relatively modern design which should have been compatible with ac traction systems. I suggest years ago the Adelaide factor struck and some vital to electrification elements were left out to save money then; these omissions were discovered late in the upgrade design program. In the end a complete new system based on axle counters and fibre communications is a more viable option. I would not be cynical enough that a few alcohol fuel lunches from vendors helped in that decision.

We have seen proof that three 3000 cars as a set can make it through the Goodwood underpass.
It is, however a bit of a leap of faith to suggest that 3 by 3000 can pull a 4000 set weighing some 120 tonne net through the underpass. Oh me of little faith!

Better go the church for a faith lift!

Ian
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Recycling 2000s (Jumbos) to something useful. They are stainless steel; urinals comes to mind.
"steam4ian"
An image of a 2000 class could be stamped into said urinals to help people aim straight, a bit like they did with photos of Shaun Tait at Adelaide Oval a couple of years ago when he was playing for a Melbourne T20 team. This could well be the best way for the 2000 class to be preserved in some form at the National Rail Museum, no need to find 25 metres of track to fit it in when some bathroom renovations would get the job done!

From the little participation I had in the various projects I suggest it was originally intended to retain the existing system and make it suitable by means of impedance bonds at the track circuit joints and other add on hardware. No or minimal allowance was made for additional conduits. The present system on other lines has ac track circuits and is of a relatively modern design which should have been compatible with ac traction systems. I suggest years ago the Adelaide factor struck and some vital to electrification elements were left out to save money then; these omissions were discovered late in the upgrade design program. In the end a complete new system based on axle counters and fibre communications is a more viable option. I would not be cynical enough that a few alcohol fuel lunches from vendors helped in that decision.
"steam4ian"
Given that somewhere around the $90,000,000 mark was included for signalling in the line item breakdown of the electrification project budget last year, I wonder whether it's actually a simple failure of project management with regards to multiple contractors working on the same site.

We have seen proof that three 3000 cars as a set can make it through the Goodwood underpass.
It is, however a bit of a leap of faith to suggest that 3 by 3000 can pull a 4000 set weighing some 120 tonne net through the underpass. Oh me of little faith!
"steam4ian"
I thought the fatty boombah EMUs were 174t tare, not in the 120-130 range like they should be.

DMU haulage between Adelaide and Dry Creek shouldn't be a problem so long as the EMU can get itself to the city. For Seaford to Adelaide I expect that the much longer hills coming up from the Onkaparinga River to Noarlunga and from the Field River towards Hallett Cove would be bigger challenges for a DMU convoy hauling an EMU than the underpass which should be a momentum job. Hopefully such a test will be conducted with an EMU if/when the electrification is completed - with a fully working one so it can drive itself out in the event of the exercise not working.

If a DMU convoy can't get a non-cooperative EMU from Seaford to the city then another working EMU could do the job if the electronic connections to the coupler can be isolated to operate in mechanical-only mode like when coupled to a DMU (Bombardier-built Electrostar series EMUs in Britain are known to "infect" other units coupled when they have electronic issues) or if they are just electronic issues it could be fixed at Seaford Meadows by a bloke with a laptop or by unbolting the offending module and replacing it.
  gustovski Beginner

they could put a dmu between the two emus then they would have more horses to get it up the hill
as for what to do with the jumbos i think at least a couple should be given to steam ranger especially the ones still in sta livery one to the nrm and the rest to converted into urinals!!!
  trainznbuses Train Controller

Location: Seacliff Park, SA
Why no love for the Jumbos?
Sure, they were not really suitable for the purpose they were designed for running suburban services in Adelaide, particularly for hills runs or all stoppers on any line BUT they were the first fully air-conditioned vehicles on Adelaide Suburban rail. You get a really quiet ride in an a trailer car.
I think that they would be ideal for services to the Barossa, Murray Bridge, Victor Harbor, Iron Triangle - and even for the Overland as previously mentioned. They are (allegedly) good for 160 km/h (track speed limits not withstanding) and would come into their own running non stop/start services.
I do have a definite soft spot for them.
I think that it would be a shame if they were to be all scrapped.
I would hope that Steam Ranger at the very least would be willing to at least take a 2/3 car set on as a working set and NRM for static display.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Recycling 2000s (Jumbos) to something useful. They are stainless steel; urinals comes to mind.

Ian
"steam4ian"


I thought they were already used as Urinals on certain lines.
Sadly they are the wrong grade of stainless to make a proper urinal.

they could put a dmu between the two emus then they would have more horses to get it up the hill
"gustovski"

You really have no idea do you?
Anyway, welcome back to RP, how long do you think you'll last this time?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
I also think we have done future uses for Jumbos like a dinner in previous threads!

Anyhow, Back at the rail head (so to speak),
Today the overhead is basically complete between just north of Tonsley Junction and Edwardstown (both tracks) Insulators and support arms all installed between Edwardstown and Cross Road
Work continues on signalling with a number of techs working on lineside cabinets between Leader St and East Ave.
Signal 331 (Down Belair line south of Hilton Bridge) was being shifted to it's new caged gantry today.

I do wonder how much longer the old red pedestrian bridge at Anzac Hwy will last!
  Scooter_Guy Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA. Suburb: Redwood Park
Overhead wire supports are now being installed at the Adelaide Railway Station.
Once the wire all the way from Adelaide to Seaford is complete, there may be some more tests for the new trains.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

"I do wonder how much longer the old red pedestrian bridge at Anzac Hwy will last!"

I think said bridge has a water main strapped to the side of it.
There is a cycle path that leads onto it from the West Parklands; the one which runs parallel to and about 20 metres from the cycle lane on the new narrow part of the Anzac Highway. Grrrr!

Scooter Guy: get on your scooter and travel beside the rail between HCB and ARS to see how much is still to be completed.
The wires might be up in some places but they take forever after that fiddling with it. I was reported here that works on a certain section were complete, when I followed this up I saw that the conductors were still running through the reeving blocks and not tied off.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
"I do wonder how much longer the old red pedestrian bridge at Anzac Hwy will last!"

I think said bridge has a water main strapped to the side of it.
There is a cycle path that leads onto it from the West Parklands; the one which runs parallel to and about 20 metres from the cycle lane on the new narrow part of the Anzac Highway. Grrrr!
"steam4ian"

G'day Ian,

The pedestrian bridge has been closed to all traffic (as in fenced off at both ends) for a number of weeks now, and yes the water pipe (a couple I believe) is still attached.
It just looks like it's a tad lower than the overhead will be. (to my eye anyway!)
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
What about the other water main down from the Anzac Highway bridge? That to me looks too low too.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
What about the other water main down from the Anzac Highway bridge? That to me looks too low too.
"Aaron"

The one on the south side of the bridge?
Thats the recycled water main from the Glenelg treatment works to the parklands, only installed a few years ago.
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Overhead wire supports are now being installed at the Adelaide Railway Station.
Once the wire all the way from Adelaide to Seaford is complete, there may be some more tests for the new trains.
Scooter_Guy

Very likely tests would need to be made on the entire line when wiring is complete 2 tests I can think of that need to be made is firstly to make sure all the electrical infrastructure is working correctly and secondly to see how well the electric trains perform at different parts of the line which may or may not have an effect on if speed limits are raised in different parts of the line.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

That's a lie. Not from you Halo, from DPTI.
"Aaron"

how are you measuring the project?
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Im more inclined to believe the DPTIs signalling chart is more accurate over their electrification chart I mean a first glance at the Noarlunga Line now would definitely make you think they arent at 87% complete with the electrification considering the remaining masts and wiring that needs to go up.

A quick glance at the line I would estimate the line is only at about 65% as far as wiring is concerned

Its harder to judge the signalling works though because of all the works that go on internally and what we cant physically see but the chart indicates the signalling works are about half way done now and given we are less than 5 weeks away from their 2nd deadline and still plenty of work to do completing the remainder of the signalling works in less than 5 weeks at their current pace is looking more and more unlikely based off that chart alone (Even if they are working as fast as possible). In this case its better to be up front and honest about this since they have already failed us once and its very likely at this point the rail closure will extend into December.

Well thats what I think
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
how are you measuring the project?
"duttonbay"
By just looking at it! If you looked at it you'd clearly see they're not 90% done too!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
they could put a dmu between the two emus then they would have more horses to get it up the hill
"gustovski"
You really have no idea do you?
"Pressman"
Whilst not supporting the idea, I believe this is supposed to be a semi creative (or crazy) way of suggesting a work around if the sparks cannot be just mechanically coupled, a single pox between the sparks would provide for mechanical coupling 'between' sparks.

Normally, I would suggest that of course a mechanical only coupling could be made between EMUs, but this is a state government order and a Bombardier product and I am no longer anything close to confident at making predictions as to what we'll get...
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The one on the south side of the bridge?
Thats the recycled water main from the Glenelg treatment works to the parklands, only installed a few years ago.
"Pressman"
Hopefully it was installed at sufficient altitude.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Hopefully it was installed at sufficient altitude.
"Aaron"

Being a State Government project ..... Who knows!
  poxbox3030 Train Controller

Location: Train Control
Normally, I would suggest that of course a mechanical only coupling could be made between EMUs, but this is a state government order and a Bombardier product and I am no longer anything close to confident at making predictions as to what we'll get...
"Aaron"


If the couplers are like every other auto (Shafenburg?) coupler, then for a mechanical (non electrical) coupling, all that  is required is throw a small lever under a rubber flap on the top of the coupler. It allows mechanical coupling and brake pipe/main res to connect but prevents the electrical doors on the coupler from opening.

It is the same thing they do when using the converter coupler in the event a 3000 needs to couple to a 2000 class for recovery.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

how are you measuring the project?
"duttonbay"
If you were to go along and divide the 30 kilometre route from Adelaide to Noarlunga Centre (completion of works to do with the Seaford Rail Extension project should NOT be used to artificially boost the stats on the Noarlunga Line Revitalisation project) into 100x segments each 300 metres long, how many of them would have ALL electrification works completed within that segment?

Even if it dishonestly doesn't include the signalling works which are part of the electrification project, it's still a much more honest metric than taking an average of ten categories - three of which shouldn't exist (coincidentally three of them that show as 100% done) and another five of which should be merged to two.

An even better measure for the public, while not being a proper reflection of the electrification work, would be a percentage of the closure time. But that's impossible because there aren't any proper project managers on the job, only engineers promoted beyond their skill set who don't understand that works never progress as smoothly in the real world as they do in engineerland.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

When does a project start? When the first design work is undertaken? When the first dirt is broken?  
How do they measure percentage complete? In calendar days? In man days? From when? (see above) Or perhaps a percentage of budget spent?

I don't know how it has been measured here, but there's an awful lot of stuff to do which cannot be measured by simply observing the hanging of catenary or erection of masts.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Well we know that percentage of budget spent wouldn't work as most DPTI projects would easily get well over 100% completion on that basis. Adelaide Oval would look like getting towards 135% completion by the end if that was the case, and that's only the one project which has faced the most public scrutiny.

Completion of the closure period would be the measure most relevant to the general public. The handful of remaining public transport users who haven't permanently switched to road transport, changed jobs or shifted closer to work just want their trains back so the substitute bus pain can end - and they couldn't care less if they are DMUs or EMUs.

I still maintain that the proportion of the route's length where the electrification works have been completed and it's ready to hand back would be best. As I wrote above, that way the route could be divided up into x segments of 30000/x metres and a %completion calculated by counting the number of segments certified as complete and dividing by the total. It's simple, transparent and honest - but wouldn't happen because they are evidently the second, third and fourth most hated things at the department hates (after public transport users).
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
The handful of remaining public transport users who haven't permanently switched to road transport, changed jobs or shifted closer to work just want their trains back so the substitute bus pain can end - and they couldn't care less if they are DMUs or EMUs.
justapassenger
Pain is definitely an issue. It seems that the bus drivers these days seem to drive in a manner that delivers as much bruising and jerking around as possible so that by the time you are to fall off the bus at your destination you are too dazed to work out how to get off anyway.

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