CSR fleet grounded?

 
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

I think in the end these locos will have their horsepower reduced to achieve better reliability from the various components. It might not happen right away but it seems hard to believe they'll survive in their current configuration for the rest of their operational lives. At the moment they seem to be following the same path as the QR 2350 class where just too much locomotive was squeezed into a too small package.

Sponsored advertisement

  jmt Deputy Commissioner

I believe what BDA is saying is that as educated adults (or educated young adults), we can make an informed comment wtihout leaning on a xenophobic crutch. You're exactly right that a shoddy product has come out of China, but it would be incorrect to word that as "all products from China are shoddy". I agree about naming and shaming, as employees health and safety has been jeopardized, but it's not right to dissolve into racism and other childish taunts. Better to deal with the facts.
Raichase
The fact is that a "company" owned by the Chinese State has fragrantly certified a product as asbestos free.

Why should we not question all product that originates from that country, or does your political correctness prohibit us from doing this?

What proof do you possess, that standards where they exist in that country are rigorously enforced, and that the enforcement process is corruption free?

What do you say to all of the Chinese mothers whose babies were poisoned with melamine contaminated infant formula? You would have to be nuts not to question Chinese standards compliance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The fact is that a "company" owned by the Chinese State has fragrantly certified a product as asbestos free.

Why should we not question all product that originates from that country, or does your political correctness prohibit us from doing this?

What proof do you possess, that standards where they exist in that country are rigorously enforced, and that the enforcement process is corruption free?

What do you say to all of the Chinese mothers whose babies were poisoned with melamine contaminated infant formula? You would have to be nuts not to question Chinese standards compliance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
jmt
You'd be encouraged to quote the section of my post in which I didn't say you should question products from that country. What I said was, it is correct that a shoddy product has come from China, but it would be incorrect to say that all products from China are shoddy.

My comments had nothing whatsoever to do with any other events other than loco/wagon manufacturing, so your bringing a completely unrelated event into the discussion is meaningless. I have nothing to say to those mothers, because I have no opinion to offer.

What is so hard about avoiding racist comments? Are we unable to maintain a mature discussion without them?
  JGS Moderator Well. We'll see about THAT!

Location: Junee NSW
The fact is that a "company" owned by the Chinese State has fragrantly certified a product as asbestos free.

Why should we not question all product that originates from that country, or does your political correctness prohibit us from doing this?

What proof do you possess, that standards where they exist in that country are rigorously enforced, and that the enforcement process is corruption free?

What do you say to all of the Chinese mothers whose babies were poisoned with melamine contaminated infant formula? You would have to be nuts not to question Chinese standards compliance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
jmt
Raichase is correct. It is a logical mistake to assume that if something shoddy has come from China, then everything coming from China is shoddy. It is true that some items from China are rubbish, it may be true that many items from China are rubbish, but unless you've examined every item that has come from China, you cannot claim that all items from China are rubbish.

What is true of China is simple. You get what you pay for. If the Western specification calls for a certain item to be produced at a relatively low-cost, then it stands to reason that the cost may not allow the time or quality to be put into the item. If the Western specification allows enough cost to ensure that the job is done well and to a high standard, then the item is good. It's entirely up to the purchaser to determine what they'll get.

So, we can't go to China, pay an amount that doesn't allow the same levels of quality materials and production, and expect to get as good a product as we'd get if we paid top dollar. It's up to the purchaser to decide what to spend.

Going on about Chinese politics or products is a non-sequitur, it doesn't follow. If I'm going to follow this bit of reasoning;

Why should we not question all product that originates from that country, or does your political correctness prohibit us from doing this?
jmt

...then I can do the same. A few years ago, I bought a plastic item, made in a factory in suburban Melbourne. It was crap, and broke the first time I used it. Does this mean that I must assume that all Australian products are equally bad? Didn't think so.

There's a difference between 'some', 'many', 'most', and 'all'.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Yeah well the thing is being proactive is more about comparing products than their producers . Once it's established that a product is a POS you know to look at alternatives .
I believe there is a difference in manufacturing mindsets and you have to look at the long term goals of the producers . Where absolute cheapest takes the front seat the success of the product is often seriously compromised . With something like a locomotive you need to build up to a standard rather than down to a bare bones price . Standards have to be met in countries like ours though they obviously differ elsewhere .
Like it or not the US appears to be home to the more successful freight locomotive designs and they set fairly rigid standards . EMD and GE have sold some of their most powerful designs to China so its not like they don't know a good product when they get to see and use them .
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

The point that I have been trying to make is that some contributors to this thread have taken a PC and holier than though view, and are trying to impose their values on other contributers.

These gents are probably all in favor of Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act, and smeg that Attorney-General George Brandis intends to repeal this section, and hate Andrew Bolt and Murdock's newspapers.

If some clods express incorrect or xenophobic views on this site, good on them, they can wear the consequences of their posts. This is not a forum for the pseudo intellectual to denigrate and lecture, and attempt to impose politically correct standards, which in reality hold little water outside of universities, schools, and certain political party branch meetings. Quite frankly the rest of the country does not give a toss
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
jmt, as far as I can see BDA never mentioned anything racist or xenophobic, nor has anyone else since and Raichase only asked why it has to be brought into the discussion since your earlier post. I don't see holier than thou attitudes nor opinion forcing going on here, only someone trying not to let others call them out for being blatantly racist. Speaking for everyone however doesn't hold watertight.

Hindsight is certainly a PITA right now for SCT/SBR.
  PILBARAMAN Train Controller

Location: PILBARA
Just a simple question,why would the fact that a product made in any country let alone Australia or China and when comment is made about said product-say a locomotive that has proven itself to be less than reliable, that comment is made regarding this and labeled racist?
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Eventually the cost of rectifying the problems will negate any money saved by buying overseas, especially given the money lost while the units are out of service with failures.
Raichase


How so? Surely if the manufacturer has misrepresented the product, ie stating that it is asbestos free and then proceeding to use asbestos, they are liable for the rectification costs. The same goes for dodgy (mismatched?) components.
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

Who will the Federal Government prosecute for importing product containing asbestos, in breach of current regulation?

Will CSR be prosecuted for the fraudulent asbestos compliance certificate, this is probably an offense under the Customs Act?  

There has to be a quid in this fiasco for the Customs Department
  9034 Train Controller

Article from the ABC


Railway workers exposed to asbestos in Chinese-made trains7.30

By Matt Peacock
Updated Wed 27 Nov 2013, 8:38am AEDT
[b]Video:[/b] Asbestos found in Chinese-made trains (7.30)
[img]http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5118384-3x2-340x227.jpg[/img] [b] Photo:[/b] China is now the world's largest user of white asbestos. (ABC: 7.30)

[b]Related Story:[/b] Asbestos consumption on the rise in Asia


[b]Map: [/b] China

Railway workers have been exposed to potentially hazardous asbestos after the deadly dust was found in locomotives brought in from China.
The breach of a 10-year ban on the import of products containing the carcinogenic fibre is not the first incident of its kind.
Unions are now demanding tougher policing of Chinese imports, describing the current asbestos-free certificates as a farce.
Last year freight carrier SCT imported 10 locomotives made by China Southern Rail (CSR) to tow iron ore bound for China to port.
To comply with the decade-old Australian ban on asbestos imports, they were certified asbestos-free. However, this was not the case.
National secretary of the Rail, Tram and Bus Union Bob Nanva says maintenance workers raised concerns about the dust.
"We had our maintenance workers repairing a number of diesel engines," he said.
"They identified a lot of white dust among those engines and asked the question as to whether or not that dust was safe."
The workers' concerns were justified. White asbestos - or chrysotile - was found throughout the locomotives, in insulation around the exhaust and muffler system, around coolant pipes and in the brake exhaust section near the roof of the driver's cabin.
Workers reassured despite dangersMr Nanva said workers were initially told there was nothing to worry about.
"They were assured on numerous occasions that there was nothing to be alarmed about, but on subsequent testing of that dust they have identified asbestos," he said.
Last month, at a cost of more than $1 million, the locomotives were pulled from service.
Most were quarantined at SCT's centre at Penfield in northern Adelaide, where professional asbestos removalists in protective suits and masks have been stripping the asbestos out of the trains.
The company's subsidiary Specialised Bulk Rail says its first priority has been the safety of its staff, some of whom it concedes may have been at "some risk" when the asbestos-containing insulation blankets were "damaged or ripped".
Mr Nanva says the workers would have been regularly at risk.
"These are maintenance workers that repair these trains day in, day out, and would have been exposed to these fibres day in, day out," he said.
Chief executive of the Asbestos Safety & Eradication Agency Peter Tighe says it shows certifications from China are questionable.
"It's another example, I think, of the lack of compliance in relation to certification from Asia, and more specifically China, that asbestos-free certification is really questionable out of those areas," he said.
Asbestos ban broken beforeThis is not the first time China has broken the Australian ban on asbestos.
Last year more than 25,000 Chinese-made Great Wall, Chery and Geely cars were recalled after asbestos was discovered in their engine gaskets and brakes.
In decades to come experts expect hundreds of thousands of Chinese casualties from asbestos.
They were assured on numerous occasions that there was nothing to be alarmed about, but on subsequent testing of that dust they have identified asbestos.

Bob Navana, Rail, Tram and Bus Union


A 1980s film by Szechuan University smuggled out from China shows the tragic story of China's own Wittenoom - at Dayao, in the province of Yunnan - where asbestos exposures had led to the fatal cancer - mesothelioma.
Back in Australia, it was the same type of blue asbestos, from the Wittenoom mine, that lined Melbourne's blue Harris trains, potentially poisoning passengers when the walls were broken.
So dangerous were the trains they were sealed in plastic and buried in quicksand at a quarry in Clayton.
Blue asbestos, which is more likely to cause the cancer mesothelioma, is now banned in both countries - but China is now the world's largest user of white asbestos, which Perth's asbestos expert Professor Bill Musk warns still causes cancer.
"The risk of lung cancer from white asbestos may be more than from blue asbestos given the same amount of exposure," he said.
Growing cancer epidemic in ChinaMuch of China's white asbestos has been mined near Mongolia by prison labour.
Conditions there and in Chinese factories are extremely dusty and long-term studies of asbestos workers have revealed a growing cancer epidemic.
Mr Navna says asbestos is a "ticking time bomb".
"The fact that you have family station wagons, trains, numerous components from China being imported into Australia without the requisite checks is a grave concern to us," he said.
"It should be a great concern to Australian consumers."
The giant state-owned China Southern Rail, exhibiting at this week's AusRail conference in Sydney, said in a statement that asbestos was clearly excluded from the specifications for the locomotives. It blames a sub-contractor for supplying the asbestos and insisted it will not happen again.
But, CSR's assistant general manager Li Huling said: "Although there was an explicit restriction in the use of asbestos, the interpretation of the definition of asbestos by our sub-contractor did not include chysotile [white asbestos] - as it was widely used in the world."
Several cases of Chinese companies breaking asbestos banWhite asbestos use in Asia is expanding, and China is not the only country to break the Australian ban.
Recently asbestos was discovered in engine gaskets of two tugboats imported from Singapore in 2008 for use in the port of Fremantle.
Australian Institute of Marine and Power Engineers assistant federal secretary Martin Byrne says two tugboats that came to Australia had asbestos-free certificates.
"There were declarations by the shipyard that built the vessels that there was no asbestos-containing material at all in those vessels," he said.
"When we started to work them and needed to repair them and started to have to take them apart, it was discovered that there were asbestos-containing materials."
Like the train drivers' union, Mr Byrne says the marine engineers institute has bitter experience from past exposures to asbestos of its tragic consequences.
"We get the phone calls. We have the members coming to us after they had the diagnosis from the doctor of mesothelioma," he said.
"I know, personally, deep inside me, that as soon as the guy tells me that it's a death sentence."
Mr Nanva says he is now wondering whether Sydney's new fleet of Waratah passenger trains - part of which were sourced from China - might also contain asbestos, something Transport for NSW says it is satisfied is not the case.
"We have no confidence that any component or train that is manufactured in China and imported into Australia is free of asbestos," Mr Nanva said.



Interesting article

9034
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The CSR locos came with Chinese "Asbestos-free" certificates. QED
  PILBARAMAN Train Controller

Location: PILBARA
Just a simple question,why would the fact that a product made in any country let alone Australia or China and when comment is made about said product-say a locomotive that has proven itself to be less than reliable, that comment is made regarding this and labeled racist?
"PILBARAMAN"


Maybe Raichase would have the answer?
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
How so? Surely if the manufacturer has misrepresented the product, ie stating that it is asbestos free and then proceeding to use asbestos, they are liable for the rectification costs. The same goes for dodgy (mismatched?) components.
Graham4405
I'm not entirely sure how this would work, given the overseas company supplying the products - I understand through talking to people who work with the locomotives, that all of the defects in the design were covered under warranty, and that SCT couldn't undertake major changes to the locomotive design on their own as this would void the warranty. I agree that in a perfect world, all of these costs should be covered by CSR, especially given that as you say, they misrepresented the product as being asbestos free. Considering the loss of income from units out of service, as well as delays on the network attracting fees from the network operator (ARTC in all cases?), and now the related cost to hire replacement locomotives (EL and GL Classes from CFCLA), I imagine SCT would be out of pocket. Should CSR pay for this? I think, as a personal opinion, yes. I do not know enough about the way the legal system works with foreign companies to say for certain though.


Just a simple question,why would the fact that a product made in any country let alone Australia or China and when comment is made about said product-say a locomotive that has proven itself to be less than reliable, that comment is made regarding this and labeled racist?

Maybe Raichase would have the answer?
PILBARAMAN
Quoting your own post and suggesting that I might have the answer is obviously a thinly veiled sneer in my direction, so thanks for your childishness. It's always appreciated.

I have no idea why people don't want to debate the facts here, and instead continue to insist on picking on the racism point. JGS has explained it perfectly in his post, perhaps you'd be better off reading that, rather than making snide remarks and not contributing to a discussion.

If you need it summed up.

CSR Class? Lemons. They're unreliable, and now feature dangerous asbestos, putting railway workers in harms way. That's not on, I hope that no further Australian companies buy from CSR in the future. I don't want to go to work and be exposed to hazardous substances because a Chinese company did the wrong thing.

That does not mean that all products manufactured in China area crap. Blanket statements that imply as such are counterproductive. Go pick up your DVD player, your childrens toys, your air conditioner, your digital camera, etc. A large number of these things are made in China, and have no substantially obvious defects compared to similar products made anywhere else.

You'd be more than welcome to stop attacking comments made by myself, and participate in the general discussion whenever you're ready.
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
The CSR locos came with Chinese "Asbestos-free" certificates. QED
awsgc24
thats right...they probably didnt charge for the Asbestos
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
caveat emptor....   SCT  chose to ignore.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
If those remaining GT46ACes are still available they could be a worthwhile alternative and a known quantity .
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

If those remaining GT46ACes are still available they could be a worthwhile alternative and a known quantity .
BDA
BDA, it is a Chinese company that owns the project that supplies the stuff these locos haul. Maybe purchasing Chinese built locos was part of the deal. If the locos have problems then the Chinese have to wear the consequences. But please stop the dog whistle blowing. We all know what you are really getting at. It is white asbestos which is no where near as harmful but still no excuse for it being installed on the locomotives. I hope the staff exposed to it are going to be OK.
  PILBARAMAN Train Controller

Location: PILBARA
I'm not entirely sure how this would work, given the overseas company supplying the products - I understand through talking to people who work with the locomotives, that all of the defects in the design were covered under warranty, and that SCT couldn't undertake major changes to the locomotive design on their own as this would void the warranty. I agree that in a perfect world, all of these costs should be covered by CSR, especially given that as you say, they misrepresented the product as being asbestos free. Considering the loss of income from units out of service, as well as delays on the network attracting fees from the network operator (ARTC in all cases?), and now the related cost to hire replacement locomotives (EL and GL Classes from CFCLA), I imagine SCT would be out of pocket. Should CSR pay for this? I think, as a personal opinion, yes. I do not know enough about the way the legal system works with foreign companies to say for certain though.


Quoting your own post and suggesting that I might have the answer is obviously a thinly veiled sneer in my direction, so thanks for your childishness. It's always appreciated.

I have no idea why people don't want to debate the facts here, and instead continue to insist on picking on the racism point. JGS has explained it perfectly in his post, perhaps you'd be better off reading that, rather than making snide remarks and not contributing to a discussion.

If you need it summed up.

CSR Class? Lemons. They're unreliable, and now feature dangerous asbestos, putting railway workers in harms way. That's not on, I hope that no further Australian companies buy from CSR in the future. I don't want to go to work and be exposed to hazardous substances because a Chinese company did the wrong thing.

That does not mean that all products manufactured in China area crap. Blanket statements that imply as such are counterproductive. Go pick up your DVD player, your childrens toys, your air conditioner, your digital camera, etc. A large number of these things are made in China, and have no substantially obvious defects compared to similar products made anywhere else.

You'd be more than welcome to stop attacking comments made by myself, and participate in the general discussion whenever you're ready.
"Raichase"


I will leave you to your childish comments,you seem to be an expert on them or believe you are,as for my participation in the discussion I asked a simple question regarding comments about locos and why those comments are labeled racist because the locos happen to be made in China or any country for that matter and you usually are one of the first to push this so called racist comments agenda so I thought you might be able to explain it,though you obviously can't or won't .

As for the education on where most things are made these days you would be better off saving that for your fellow pre-schoolers as 99.9% of people on these and any other forums worldwide already know.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I will leave you to your childish comments, (snip)

(snip) you would be better off saving that for your fellow pre-schoolers as 99.9% of people on these and any other forums worldwide already know.
PILBARAMAN
Suggested Reading

Always a pleasure discussing things with you.You'll have to forgive me if you ever direct a question or statement at me again if I should choose to ignore it.
  PILBARAMAN Train Controller

Location: PILBARA
Suggested Reading

Always a pleasure discussing things with you.You'll have to forgive me if you ever direct a question or statement at me again if I should choose to ignore it.
"Raichase"


The fact is you refuse to answer the question,but don't worry I forgive you, I wouldn't expect anything different from you.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
locking the thread.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.