Victorian VLCX - Auscisions, or OTM's - wheel wise

 
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner




I emailed auscision and they confirmed today that vans will come with interior details the same as ontrack, so if its purely on cost auscision is the clear winner with a 4 pack at $220 and a 5th wagon free that works out at $44 per wagon inc postage compared to otm $65 per wagon inc postage.Trainorama previously did these wagons as mentioned by a previous poster but they had chunky bogies and lacked  detail and the roof profile was not correct compared to the more accurate models coming soon from auscision and otm.
2LaGrange

[edit]http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11376365.htm  thread split from a normal cmpatrison to yet another wheel standard discussion. [/edit]



Assuming no policy changes, Auscission will come with steam roller width wheels and Chinese scale head couplers, OTM will come with fine scale wheels and genuine Kadee scale head couplers. If you want fine scale wheels and Kadee couplers the price difference becomes minimal between the 2 brands.   Time will tell which is the more accurate.

Terry Flynn

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  2LaGrange Train Controller

As you say terry time will tell,but i would have to say that 99.99% of people are happy with your so called "steam roller wheels" and will not see the need to change them.Thats why auscision sell fine scale wheels as a separate part for the tiny minority that want them,why make everyone else pay for expensive wheels they dont want or need.If the wheels did not cost auscision anymore why would they not be standard ? Obviously there would be an additional cost thats why there not standard.As for couplers i personally have not had any issues with auscisions metal couplers so for me auscisions vans are way infront price wise.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

As you say terry time will tell,but i would have to say that 99.99% of people are happy with your so called "steam roller wheels" and will not see the need to change them.Thats why auscision sell fine scale wheels as a separate part for the tiny minority that want them,why make everyone else pay for expensive wheels they dont want or need.If the wheels did not cost auscision anymore why would they not be standard ? Obviously there would be an additional cost thats why there not standard.As for couplers i personally have not had any issues with auscisions metal couplers so for me auscisions vans are way infront price wise.
2LaGrange

Yes Ausicision are ahead in price if you are happy with steam roller width wheels or to put it another way tin plate era width wheels. In an earlier post I proved there is no increase in cost to make finescale wheels. The Auscision aftermarket finescale wheels are to a standard, the same AMRA standard OTM finescale wheels are made to. Both work on RTR track without any problems. The reason why the Auscision models are cheaper is because Auscision are offering a discount. Their other recently released Auscision wagons are around  $60 each.

Auscision are listening to a vocal minority, who don't like change. The centering springs on the Chinese couplers are not as reliable as the Kadee whisker couplers. If you shunt, you will notice the difference.

Terry Flynn.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Terry just out of interest to me have you seen any of the wheels used on Orient Express models and what is your opinion of them if you have . Just interested that is all nothing more. You can PM me if you like as this is off topic here.




[edit]Yes, start a new thread on this please -Dtheadf[/edit]
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
.....but i would have to say that 99.99% of people are happy with your so called "steam roller wheels" .............
2LaGrange
I doubt your statement, do you have any data to base it on?

Mark
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I doubt your statement, do you have any data to base it on?

Mark
LaidlayM
Well just at a outside guess how many are sold and run straight out of the box, not everyone changes wheels over unless it is absolutely required. Unless the wheels have bad wobble or something similar. I for one do not change wheels unless I really have to, call me a miser but what comes with current models even if branded steam roller wheels are miles better than say Lima pizza cutter wheels to start with and don't get me started on plastic injection moulded wheels either. Most of these wheels were smeg especially the plastic ones.

I doubt you would find conclusive data though to base anything on. May be start a poll or something asking how many change the wheels on RTR stuff today it might give you some indication of it!
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
Well just at a outside guess how many are sold and run straight out of the box, not everyone changes wheels over unless it is absolutely required. Unless the wheels have bad wobble or something similar. I for one do not change wheels unless I really have to, call me a miser but what comes with current models even if branded steam roller wheels are miles better than say Lima pizza cutter wheels to start with and don't get me started on plastic injection moulded wheels either. Most of these wheels were smeg especially the plastic ones.

I doubt you would find conclusive data though to base anything on. May be start a poll or something asking how many change the wheels on RTR stuff today it might give you some indication of it!
David Peters
David,

if you are responding to me I don't think you read what I quoted or wrote properly.  2LG didn't mention changing wheels, just happy with wheels.  2LG needs to supply conclusive data, not me so I won't be finding any such thing or starting a poll.

Mark
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
David,

if you are responding to me I don't think you read what I quoted or wrote properly.  2LG didn't mention changing wheels, just happy with wheels.  2LG needs to supply conclusive data, not me so I won't be finding any such thing or starting a poll.

Mark
LaidlayM
So he needs to go to the trouble of finding that data because you say so?

No, I don't think so, he is perfectly at liberty to give an opinion without having to back it up with impossible-to-provide evidence.

This is a forum, not a board of enquiry.
  a6et Minister for Railways

From my perspective & its what I find amongst the 40 odd modellers that I have contact with, all generally only replace an item that causes a problem, that includes wheels & even the junk like Chinese couplers, although the couplers are more prone towards being replaced owing to many of them failing.

The wheels are another matter altogether, if they cause no problems whether of an 88,100 or 110 profile they are then replaced, & replaced with whatever wheels they have as spares.  Interestingly several of those hold the MMR status as modellers, & they make no fuss about wheels in particular, one comment was that as long as they are round, go round, do not derail or cause problems they are ok.
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
2LG made an unsubstantiated statement that was not couched as a personal opinion.  I am challenging that statement.  You are right in that he/she can choose to let it lapse.  At least some young innocent reading the thread will then know it is not based on any facts thus can assume that more than 0.01% of buyers are not happy with 110 wheels and the blind acceptance of NMRA standards.
Mark
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

I change the wheels of my rollingstock to code 088 - looks thousands of times better.  Just like I change the couplers to something more reliable compared to the junk that is on them originally.

Regards
Shelton
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Can you tell the difference between steam roller wheels and finescale wheels when the train is flying past at scale 80km/h? Or only when the model is sitting on its roof?
  Iain Chief Commissioner

Location: Concord, NSW
Well if you are happy at having every train wizzing round and round at the speed of a fast express well and good but some modellers prefer their models and railways be a little closer to the real thing at HO scale so they are interested in having near to scale couplers and wheels. They may even attempt to run their trains more like a railway than a toy train and this would allow observers to note the fine scale track, wheels and couplings and how nice they are.

If this was an isolated trend of harmless nutters it would be hard to explain why Exactrail a moderately large manufacturer in the USA boasts of having fine scale wheels clearly they see it as a key selling point for their models so there must be a demand for such things.

I doubt whether the 90% figure could be sustained either way and personally I am not fussed. As for the NRMA standards well I know the weight standards are a load of junk reflecting the bygone era and railroads without four wheel (or six wheel) wagons.  Their fine scale standards are worth a look though.

Iain
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I doubt your statement, do you have any data to base it on?

Mark
LaidlayM
Mark, you, Terry and I are three not happy, therefore we see that Auscision have 30,000 customers ordering these products... That's probably more support than yankee outline has.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Can you tell the difference between steam roller wheels and finescale wheels when the train is flying past at scale 80km/h? Or only when the model is sitting on its roof?
Heihachi_73
At a decent scale speed on a model I can pick good wheels by eye from well beyond the 3' rule prescribed by 'modellers' who swear by it.
  Shazam75 Chief Commissioner

Can you tell the difference between steam roller wheels and finescale wheels when the train is flying past at scale 80km/h? Or only when the model is sitting on its roof?
Heihachi_73
Are you modelling a railway or playing with toys?
  Albert Chief Commissioner

Are you modelling a railway or playing with toys?
Shazam75
88 wheels are still to wide to model the real thing.

And where does one draw the line? Since when does wheel width define the difference between model and toy?
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

I think you can tell the difference, but it's about what you perceive as being acceptable in the end.

To say you cannot tell the difference, is not to say others can't.



  • P2K code .110 wheels with Kadee #5 coupler
  • Intermountain code .088 semi-scale wheels with Kadee #58 semi-scale coupler
  • Proto:87 code .064 scale wheels with Sergent Engineering scale coupler
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

It's somewhat funny but this comparison from the http://www.proto87.org/d/ website has always cracked me up.





Can you see the difference between the two photos above? If not, then Proto:87 is not for you.
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

Dazz, your post makes the most sense of all the debates I've witnessed regarding finescale and highlights the ignorance of many - including myself
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
Dazz, your post makes the most sense of all the debates I've witnessed regarding finescale and highlights the ignorance of many - including myself
gw0071
Those pics from http://www.proto87.org/d/ also show how easy it is to intentionally mislead without looking like you're intentionally misleading. The 'rp25/110' width is correctly applied to the prototype wagon however to then overemphasize the difference the pic is zoomed in, making the difference seem even greater. There was no reason for the proto87 site to zoom one pic other than to make things look worse for the RP25/110 wheel. If the zooming had been done to the P87 pic and the rp25/110 pic left at the lower zoom level people would say 'P87 is a waste of time, there's barely any visual difference.'.

The pic with 3 models side by side is a more accurate comparison, showing an obvious difference using unbiased comparison techniques.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Can you tell the difference between steam roller wheels and finescale wheels when the train is flying past at scale 80km/h? Or only when the model is sitting on its roof?
Heihachi_73

My models spend the vast bulk of their time sitting still on their wheels.  I've found over time that the difference between 110s and 88s is a minor eyesore (to me) to the extent that I've noticed that I often shunt the 88s at the ends of trains to "hide" the 110s.  The difference is pretty clearly shown in the pictures above, most humorously the proto:87 one (yes, I know 88s are not Proto87).

I don't always swap the wheels out (I'm more with the "if its working leave it") but if 88s are offered I'll buy them even at a premium but if I'm redoing a model (e.g. an old Lima) I'll definitely outfit with 88s.
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

If the zooming had been done to the P87 pic and the rp25/110 pic left at the lower zoom level people would say 'P87 is a waste of time, there's barely any visual difference.'.
Poath Junction
At about the same (p87 slightly bigger even) there is still a huge difference, I think.



Even enlarging the P87 ..... same result.



And to the extreme ........





Your eyes will judge the width relative to the items around it, I dare say no matter how much you enlarge the P87 image, the wheels will never look as fat to your brain.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I've found over time that the difference between 110s and 88s is a minor eyesore (to me) to the extent that I've noticed that I often shunt the 88s at the ends of trains to "hide" the 110s.  The difference is pretty clearly shown in the pictures above, most humorously the proto:87 one (yes, I know 88s are not Proto87).
"SAR523"
I do exactly that too! Years ago I made a point of getting all my brake vans onto 88 wheels, and I have been gradually been working my way to change over the whole fleet. Generally I put my best wheels at the front and rear, and run everything else in the middle.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
One problem we all have with models though is we are all expecting perfection and each thing is exactly the same as the next. But is it on the prototype though the answer in most cases is probably no. Wheels on prototype's can vary greatly as can other things as well like handrails, doors etc especially in these days of one off repairs made in yards to keep rollingstock moving. Even identical wagon classes can be different in details. Some are done deliberately to make the use of the wagon easier and some as I said are simply repairs made to a wagon to keep it moving along. Nothing in this world is dead exactly the same and the same goes for wheels etc.

Personally you make models to suit the masses, that is the average modeller so he can run it on his train set at home on the floor or table etc. If you force them to use scale wheels and perfect track to start with you will lose a lot of modellers along the way as they get discouraged and give it away. Scale wheels should be an after market thing that if you want to use scale wheels you do by simply changing them over but for the majority of us what comes with a model scale or not is of little consequence as long as it rolls along the track and does not derail.

The average railway modeller that I meet usually has no idea about scale height rails and scale wheels etc and some even find it hard to describe to me what happens when something goes wrong on their layout. It is these type of modellers that buy these models and just want to run them and enjoy them straight out of the box in most cases. They learn after a while but you have to start somewhere and learn about these things before jumping in at the deep end, we have all had to do this. Little Johnny could not give a fig about wheels, standards etc just as long as when he turns the controller on the train goes round his track.

I have a long list of people that fall into this category and most times they get back to me to find out something that they think they have done wrong. When all that is needed is some TLC or something.

Not being negative here before someone says that, but just pointing out that there is the other side of the coin as well.

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