USATC locos for the NSWGR?

 
  allambee Chief Train Controller

Many years ago, an railway engineer old timer told me that during WW2, the Americans offered thru "Lend Lease" brand new USATC 0-6-0's & 2-8-0's were offered to the NSWGR, but were refused by the NSWGR management at that time, instead they were content to order cast frames for home grown locos. I can't help thinking that if procured USATC 0-6-0's would have wiped out classes like the 19 and 20 classes and the 2-8-0's would have had a similar effect on the D50 and C32 classes. I've never read published material regarding what I was told. Has anyone heard similar stories?

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  The railway dog Junior Train Controller

Never heard that one. But of course they sent us the 79 class diesels, though under a different arrangement
Dunno much about either the 0-6-0s or 2-8-0s but since they fitted the British loading gauge they'd have done well here.
WW2 is (thankfully) before my time but one gets the impression that most ideas were on the table when it came to relieving stresses on the railway systems.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Never heard that one. But of course they sent us the 79 class diesels, though under a different arrangement
Dunno much about either the 0-6-0s or 2-8-0s but since they fitted the British loading gauge they'd have done well here.
WW2 is (thankfully) before my time but one gets the impression that most ideas were on the table when it came to relieving stresses on the railway systems.
The railway dog
Maybe this story has its origins from the D59 Class order from BLH of what were essentially USA war service Mikados. The delivery of these locos was not that long after WW2, and I am not sure if it was just a myth or not but the delivery was delayed by the provision of shorty tenders. So original proposals may have been closer to the WW2 era. The 79 class had nothing to do with the NSWGR initially and were used by the USA at ammo depots around Sydney.
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

D-55s were considered for Iran, under ROD auspices.  Of course, that is taking locomotives away rather than providing new/different ones.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
In a similar way to earlier remarks, QR had the AC16 steamers http://www.qrig.org/motive-power/locomotives/steam/ac16-class

Commonwealth Railway's WW2 needs resulted in  CN and similar from Nth America with some background here http://www.comrails.com/cr_locos/r_cn.html#70

Assume this topic is about locos from Nth America and not homebuilt during or as a result of WW2.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Maybe this story has its origins from the D59 Class order from BLH of what were essentially USA war service Mikados. The delivery of these locos was not that long after WW2, and I am not sure if it was just a myth or not but the delivery was delayed by the provision of shorty tenders. So original proposals may have been closer to the WW2 era. The 79 class had nothing to do with the NSWGR initially and were used by the USA at ammo depots around Sydney.
nswtrains
When the 59cl were ordered they were contracted to include smaller cabs as well as the tenders, as they were a basic type design other than those 2 items it did not take much to make the alterations.

The problems with stories such as those put in the threads heading is that its another one of the several that eventuated from the war years about suggestions from the yanks to do this or that. Much of those stories have not been found to be factual.

Here is one that was told by an ex NSWGR driver who was held up on an Up goods at Medlow Bath during the war, & one he was delighted to tell after the event.  The station sits opposite the Hydro Majestic hotel which was taken over by the US army during the war as their primary base of operations.  While waiting to go, the driver who had a grand old standard goods engine, noticed a U.S NCO  walking around the engine giving it a thorough going over.

When he approached the cab he looked up to the driver & made the following comment.  Hey Guy!  what do you call this thing, in the States we would eat this thing.  referring to the smallness of the loco.  The driver responded by saying,  That would not surprise me one bit, as what I have seen of your mob over here, what you don't eat you $#%@, anyway.  With that they yank roared laughing.

Turned out the yank was an engineer in Texas & the two formed a life long friendship & visited each other after the war.

With some exceptions, & the QR AC16 is a good example many of the war supplied loco's would likely to have been standard USRA types as put into action by the US government & FRA just as the US was gearing up towards diesels.  Its likely that any steam locomotive that they would want to bring here would not have conformed to our loading gauge anyway, which is part of the story regarding Ardglen tunnel.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Maybe this story has its origins from the D59 Class order from BLH of what were essentially USA war service Mikados. The delivery of these locos was not that long after WW2, and I am not sure if it was just a myth or not but the delivery was delayed by the provision of shorty tenders. So original proposals may have been closer to the WW2 era. The 79 class had nothing to do with the NSWGR initially and were used by the USA at ammo depots around Sydney.
nswtrains

According to Craig Mackey's 57 and 58 class book the NSWGR may have been offered USATC locomotives (apparently British sources offered the Riddles MoS 2-8-0).

What the NSWGR actually asked for was a 4-8-4 design offered by Lima Locomotive Works in 1939. They requested 50 of those and twenty 79 class. This was refused since the 4-8-4 was a new design, and only existing designs were permitted to be built during the war. So the NSWGR agreed to taking just the cast steel bed frames for 25 38s and 25 57s (which became the 58s and only 13 were built). The frames were delivered by 1943 but the first 38 didn't appear until 1946 and the first 58 not until 1949.

The 59 class were not delayed by design changes to the tender or anything else. They were delayed by a shortage of steel required for their construction since military requirements for the Korean war took priority.

The myth about locomotives being in stock started because Australia was offered some undelivered "Russian Decapods" (2-10-0) which greatly exceeded our clearances in both width and height, without even considering the rigid wheelbase. These were eventually sold to Finland (so they didn't have to change the gauge from 1524mm).

I think C.C. Singleton first mistook these for the British Army 2-8-2s that were the origin of the 59 class design and jumped to the conclusion that the shorter tenders required the delay.

In fact, the 59 class had one piece cast steel frames including the cylinders (like the 38 class) which the wartime locomotives did not have (only the contemporary Portuguese 1676 mm gauge versions had cast frames and these couldn't have been the same as the 59 class owing to the cylinder spacing). Numbers of locomotives of the general design were built for India (and later used in Pakistan) with 1676 mm gauge bar frames about the time the 59 class were ordered but these could not be regarded as being suitable for the NSWGR nor available from stock, as the myth suggests.

So the 59 class were just delayed as any other new locomotives were due to war priorities.

M636C
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

According to Craig Mackey's 57 and 58 class book the NSWGR may have been offered USATC locomotives (apparently British sources offered the Riddles MoS 2-8-0).

What the NSWGR actually asked for was a 4-8-4 design offered by Lima Locomotive Works in 1939. They requested 50 of those and twenty 79 class. This was refused since the 4-8-4 was a new design, and only existing designs were permitted to be built during the war. So the NSWGR agreed to taking just the cast steel bed frames for 25 38s and 25 57s (which became the 58s and only 13 were built). The frames were delivered by 1943 but the first 38 didn't appear until 1946 and the first 58 not until 1949.

The 59 class were not delayed by design changes to the tender or anything else. They were delayed by a shortage of steel required for their construction since military requirements for the Korean war took priority.

The myth about locomotives being in stock started because Australia was offered some undelivered "Russian Decapods" (2-10-0) which greatly exceeded our clearances in both width and height, without even considering the rigid wheelbase. These were eventually sold to Finland (so they didn't have to change the gauge from 1524mm).

I think C.C. Singleton first mistook these for the British Army 2-8-2s that were the origin of the 59 class design and jumped to the conclusion that the shorter tenders required the delay.

In fact, the 59 class had one piece cast steel frames including the cylinders (like the 38 class) which the wartime locomotives did not have (only the contemporary Portuguese 1676 mm gauge versions had cast frames and these couldn't have been the same as the 59 class owing to the cylinder spacing). Numbers of locomotives of the general design were built for India (and later used in Pakistan) with 1676 mm gauge bar frames about the time the 59 class were ordered but these could not be regarded as being suitable for the NSWGR nor available from stock, as the myth suggests.

So the 59 class were just delayed as any other new locomotives were due to war priorities.

M636C
M636C
Hi M636C

I totally agree concerning your remarks about the 59 Class. I do not believe the younger generations have much knowledge about how WW2 really badly affected Australia in many ways. But I still believe many of these fantasy stories probably have their origins in the 59 Class. I never realised the 59 class had a cast integrated frame. I suppose it was cast by GSI. Yes, only GSI could cast such frames. Just imagine what the NSW Railway would have been like if we did receive the Lima 4-8-4. This was probably the perfect general purpose steam loco for NSW. No requirement for more 57/58s or the 38 class and most of D50 etc class gone and most of the C classes also. As long as the 4-8-4s had autos and cast steel pilots. Yes, bells.

Cheers

Rod
  electrax Assistant Commissioner

Hi M636C

I totally agree concerning your remarks about the 59 Class. I do not believe the younger generations have much knowledge about how WW2 really badly affected Australia in many ways. But I still believe many of these fantasy stories probably have their origins in the 59 Class. I never realised the 59 class had a cast integrated frame. I suppose it was cast by GSI. Yes, only GSI could cast such frames. Just imagine what the NSW Railway would have been like if we did receive the Lima 4-8-4. This was probably the perfect general purpose steam loco for NSW. No requirement for more 57/58s or the 38 class and most of D50 etc class gone and most of the C classes also. As long as the 4-8-4s had autos and cast steel pilots. Yes, bells.

Cheers

Rod
nswtrains

The 79 class diesels' road numbers were US Army road numbers that happened to fit into the NSW locomotive numbering system.

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