R.I.P. old RTM

 
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Hello all,  

The NSW heritage review thread has been quiet for quite some time.  I felt this important event required a thread of it's own.

After 7 years of getting into bed with the NSW Government the RTM has decided to do the proper thing and get married.  It was announced today (10/12) that the RTM is engaged to the NSW Government.  The details of the nuptuals and date of the wedding are to be announced.

At it's 43rd AGM three important motions were carried by an overwhelming majority.
1)  The name of the RTM will become Transport Heritage NSW Limited.
2)  A new constitution was adopted to allow Transport Heritage NSW to take over the former roles of the RTM, Office of Rail Heritage and responsibility for other transport heritage (buses, ferries and trams (no monorails)).
3)  The new organisation will sign a funding deed with the NSW Government through Transport NSW.

This has to be the biggest shakeup in NSW heritage rail since ORH was formed in 2006, and possibly since the formation of the RTM 50 years ago.

It remains to be seen whether the NSW Government will maintain it's funding commitments once the 5 year agreement expires, and who knows what could happen if there is a change of government in NSW.

There is a mammoth task ahead of the new organisation to undo the damage that ORH and the previous administrations caused to the RTM and rail heritage groups in NSW.  I hope that there is sufficient funds in the bucket and some good people can be found to guide the new organisation in it's formative years.  It also remains to be seen if the apparent significant conflict of interest with the RTM (THNSW) controlling the purse strings for all rail and transport heritage in NSW can be successfully managed.

There will be interesting times ahead.  I hope that the heritage groups can resolve their differences and work cooperatively, although I feel that there is a large quantity of bad blood out there.

The RTM name will still exist but it will be like a brand, owned by the new entity.  

R.I.P. old RTM!

Happy new world,

John

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  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Hello all,  

The NSW heritage review thread has been quiet for quite some time.  I felt this important event required a thread of it's own.

After 7 years of getting into bed with the NSW Government the RTM has decided to do the proper thing and get married.  It was announced today (10/12) that the RTM is engaged to the NSW Government.  The details of the nuptuals and date of the wedding are to be announced.

At it's 43rd AGM three important motions were carried by an overwhelming majority.
1)  The name of the RTM will become Transport Heritage NSW Limited.
2)  A new constitution was adopted to allow Transport Heritage NSW to take over the former roles of the RTM, Office of Rail Heritage and responsibility for other transport heritage (buses, ferries and trams (no monorails)).
3)  The new organisation will sign a funding deed with the NSW Government through Transport NSW.

This has to be the biggest shakeup in NSW heritage rail since ORH was formed in 2006, and possibly since the formation of the RTM 50 years ago.

It remains to be seen whether the NSW Government will maintain it's funding commitments once the 5 year agreement expires, and who knows what could happen if there is a change of government in NSW.

There is a mammoth task ahead of the new organisation to undo the damage that ORH and the previous administrations caused to the RTM and rail heritage groups in NSW.  I hope that there is sufficient funds in the bucket and some good people can be found to guide the new organisation in it's formative years.  It also remains to be seen if the apparent significant conflict of interest with the RTM (THNSW) controlling the purse strings for all rail and transport heritage in NSW can be successfully managed.

There will be interesting times ahead.  I hope that the heritage groups can resolve their differences and work cooperatively, although I feel that there is a large quantity of bad blood out there.

The RTM name will still exist but it will be like a brand, owned by the new entity.  

R.I.P. old RTM!

Happy new world,

John
c3526blue
C3526blue quoted: "There is a mammoth task ahead of the new organisation to undo the damage that ORH and the previous administrations caused to the RTM and rail heritage groups in NSW".

This is just your personal opinion which I believe you have no evidence to support and quite contrary to the actual situation. If you have proof of actual damage, then provide the evidence.
  dogspike3102 Beginner

How about the complete mismanagement of the 3801 boiler project which has effectively deprived the museum of a key revenue raising activity for a start?
  tezza Chief Commissioner

The haste to clear the Thirlmere site resulting in scrapping of heritage items and spare parts, the damage which occured to heritage steam locomotives 3085, 5908, 5916 by being evicted to Goulburn.
The high rental that RTM have to pay now for offsite storage of spare boilers and loco parts which were once secure at the Thirlmere site.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The haste to clear the Thirlmere site resulting in scrapping of heritage items and spare parts, the damage which occured to heritage steam locomotives 3085, 5908, 5916 by being evicted to Goulburn.
The high rental that RTM have to pay now for offsite storage of spare boilers and loco parts which were once secure at the Thirlmere site.
tezza
Management sometimes have to make decisions that are a compromise and may not please every body. The place was a bit of a tip previously. I do not find this a problem but the general public is not going to pay to view what they consider junk. Remember, we are trying to attract members of the public who know squat about railways and probably care even less.

Calling the problems with DBs manufacture of a new boiler for 3801 as mis-management is just opinion and nothing more. We have those that think a local should have done the job but there is no evidence that local manufacturers are actually up to the task or indeed would want the work. It seems a group with a good reputation like DB may seem a logical choice to those aware of all the facts. The NSW could possibly seek compensation from DB for the revenue forgone due to the problems with the boiler.

Trouble is that a lot of rail fans live in some La La land and have no commercial expertise what so ever. You are so black and white when the world is actually very grey. These sort of problems happen all the time. Do not get me wrong, I want to see both C38s back in action a s much as anybody, but silly blame games do not help progress an unfortunate situation.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Where is the Small Exhibits room from the old RTM? That contained mostly a collection of signal infrastructure and signage as curated by the late Bob Booth?

Did that make it into Train Works?

I have not been to Thirlmere since the evolution into Train Works to check

Regards,

Catchpoint
  dogspike3102 Beginner

ORH sourced and appointed the contractors to oversee DBs work on 01s boiler.  These consultants were clearly not up to the task given it took until the boiler had been delivered into the hands of the project team for serious flaws to be detected.  The buck stops at the top.

Furthermore, they had left the Thirlmere site in a complete shambles by stripping RTM of key revenue earning activities, namely museum and loopline operations.   Placing events like Day out with Thomas in the hands of Trainworks meant that the profits of a successful event now had to be shared between two resource hungry organisations- Same amount of work, less return and reward.  

ORH did some good things, don't get me wrong.  We wouldn't have either 4807 or 4403 here in Canberra without them, but to say that they were not responsible for causing damage in some parts of the sector isn't quite correct.

I should point out that I'm not a member at RTM (I volunteer with the ARHS in Canberra but its starting to fall apart at the seams so I dont know for how much longer) but word gets around quick enough.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
C3526blue quoted: "There is a mammoth task ahead of the new organisation to undo the damage that ORH and the previous administrations caused to the RTM and rail heritage groups in NSW".

This is just your personal opinion which I believe you have no evidence to support and quite contrary to the actual situation. If you have proof of actual damage, then provide the evidence.
nswtrains

Hi nswtrains,

Yes it is my opinion, but not just my opinion.

If you do some research, such as reading the Azarias Report, you will find that many others in the rail heritage sector have the same opinion.  This is why the government has disbanded ORH and is forming THNSW.

I could write pages on this issue to present you with the facts of mismanagement by ORH, but I doubt this would sway your opinion.  Are you involved in any way in the rail heritage sector?  Talk to someone who has dealt with ORH and you will most likely hear some horrifying stories of waste and mismanagement.  Some of these have been mentioned by other posters in this thread.

The damage was in various forms, such as financial, physical, poor or no communication, and by segregating the rail heritage sector into "them and us" factions.  I could show you pictures of some of the physical damage caused to rail heritage items by the undue haste of ORH management to get things done without sufficient planning or care.  I won't do this because you obviously will not believe the "facts", it would be a waste of time.

I will give you one more example.  ORH budgeted Trainworks at $15M.  The quietly released final expenditure is reputedly $35M, an overexpenditure of $20M, or 133%.  Where did this extra $20M come from?  The details of some of this extra expenditure and the reasons for it astound me.  So are you saying this was effectively managed?

This will be my last public response to you on this matter.

Happy dreaming,

John


  boromisa Junior Train Controller

I think there is a significant issue with one body being regulator and operating entity in itself. More sensible approach would be to have independent oversight/coordination body like they have in Victoria.

Good thing would be also to bring someone who is neutral and who could work with all parties without perceived bias.

Even if they do just and fair thing by everyone there will be perceived conflict of interest.

It is like putting Alan Joyce in charge of CASA or Sydney Airport. (Guess what Virgin!)


I think the only thing we can expect is more Torries on govt payroll. They like that even if they hate principle of govt involvement in anything.


New era for transport heritage in NSW
[size=2]http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/new-era-transport-heritage-nsw[/size]
TfNSW
  fernhill Chief Train Controller

This is NSW, nothing neutral about the decision or the players.  Poor show I think based on a sham report. Nothing changes really.  I think the rail heritage community should be drilling right down to the bottom of this one before accepting this plan which is probably as bad as the last plan
We need transparency
  blackbird_1803 Junior Train Controller

Location: Sydney
From the Heritage Review:

"Thirlmere is a village 90kms south west of Sydney. Since 1962 it has been the site of the NSW Rail Transport Museum"

I struggle to take an expensive report seriously that makes such an obvious clanger as this. How many other errors and incorrect assumptions are in that report?



  Sydney_Gunzel Chief Commissioner

Location: The Red Lines.
In amongst the SMH-smear in the article there is some valid information regarding ThNSW;

Gladys Berejiklian staffer at centre of conflict-of-interest query

A friend of Transport Minister Gladys Berejiklian's chief of staff is to be appointed to run the state's new rail heritage organisation - an industry in which the political staffer has a financial interest.

Members of the NSW Rail Transport Museum voted on Tuesday night to create the new organisation, Transport Heritage NSW, to reform the state's splintered rail heritage scene.

It is understood Andrew Killingsworth, a friend of Ms Berejiklian's chief of staff, Owen Johnstone-Donnet, will be nominated to run the new organisation.

In doing so he will exert an influence over an industry in which Mr Johnstone-Donnet runs a sideline. As well as working for Ms Berejiklian, Mr Johnstone-Donnet owns St James Rail, a company that takes passengers on rail and bus tours.

The proposed reforms have concerned some participants, particularly those not involved with the Rail Transport Museum, which is seen to benefit from reforms introduced by Ms Berejiklian .

The opposition's transport spokeswoman, Penny Sharpe said: ''I think there are serious questions to answer about the role of Owen Johnstone-Donnet in the heritage rail area. He is running a business that profits in this area.''

A Transport for NSW spokeswoman said the recruitment for the chief executive position followed a merit-based selection process, with interviews with seven candidates.

Source:
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/gladys-berejiklian-staffer-at-centre-of-conflictofinterest-query-20131211-2z6fh.html

Other sources have spoken that Andrew Killingsworth is to be the CEO of the new body.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
If Andrew was to get appointed, I'm sure he would do an outstanding Job, as he did being Operations Manager for the RTM for so many years

Kind Regards
  boromisa Junior Train Controller

The current government is doing quite well to keep ICAC busy for the foreseeable future Laughing
  allambee Chief Train Controller

In amongst the SMH-smear in the article there is some valid information regarding ThNSW;


Source:
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/gladys-berejiklian-staffer-at-centre-of-conflictofinterest-query-20131211-2z6fh.html

Other sources have spoken that Andrew Killingsworth is to be the CEO of the new body.
Sydney_Gunzel
    Owen Johnstone-Donnet
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/owen-johnstone-donnet/21/432/587
http://www.stjamesrail.org/
He seems to have a fingers in other pies in addition to his core public servant role.
There's also this
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/half-a-million-to-employ-a-mate-transport-minister-gladys-berejiklian-accused-of-misleading-parliament/story-fni0cx12-1226730315996

Owen was also a John Howard Government era staffer
http://www.crikey.com.au/2004/07/20/where-220-ex-howard-staffers-are-now/
Was a former chief of staff to Mark Vaille, then  deputy CEO of the Tourism & Transport Forum Australia.

Imagine when back in opposition the LIB/NAT coalition uproar if it was a ALP career staffer!
  allambee Chief Train Controller

Calling the problems with DBs manufacture of a new boiler for 3801 as mis-management is just opinion and nothing more.
nswtrains
So it's all DB's fault? Yet the boiler was presumably inspected by the client (or representative) before it left DB's works and approved "fit for purpose"
Then magically it doesn't.

We have those that think a local should have done the job but there is no evidence that local manufacturers are actually up to the task or indeed would want the work. It seems a group with a good reputation like DB may seem a logical choice to those aware of all the facts. The NSW could possibly seek compensation from DB for the revenue forgone due to the problems with the boiler.
nswtrains
So DB were the preferred tenderer all along? So why waste other tenderer's time and money running a supposedly competitive tendering process?

NSW could possibly seek compensation from DB for the revenue forgone due to the problems with the boiler.
nswtrains
And how possibly would the NSW Govt recover revenue forgone from an overseas organization? legals would exceed the price of a boiler. They were lucky in DB willing to take the boiler back. I know some fabricators around the place who have the attitude once the client has completed all the fabrication inspections and signs off on the item with a long paper trail, its the clients problem.
  matthewg Train Controller

The RTM (in it's current form) is no longer a member driven organisation, it's an arm of the government, with government appointed and paid staff with a taxpayer funded income.

Politicians and political expediency will call the shots now.

The RTM has IMHO effectively disbanded itself.

It might work, I don't know, but more likely they will engage marketing consultants who will say it needs to 'reposition' the brand and within 2 years 3801 will be painted scarlet and have 'Hogwarts Castle' painted on it's sides. Heritage will go out the window in the chase for the tourist dollar.

And as for the other still independent 'heritage' operators, it's going to be very hard for 'Transport Heritage NSW' to be seen to be independent when it's also an operator/collector in it's own right. Even if they do every thing right, they will be wasting lots of time defending them selves against (probably unfair) accusations of bias.
  ssaunders Train Controller

I think there is a significant issue with one body being regulator and operating entity in itself. More sensible approach would be to have independent oversight/coordination body like they have in Victoria.

Good thing would be also to bring someone who is neutral and who could work with all parties without perceived bias.

Even if they do just and fair thing by everyone there will be perceived conflict of interest.

It is like putting Alan Joyce in charge of CASA or Sydney Airport. (Guess what Virgin!)


I think the only thing we can expect is more Torries on govt payroll. They like that even if they hate principle of govt involvement in anything.
"boromisa"



Victoria is a mess, just has a better veneer over the front of it.

ss
  michaelgreenhill Administrator That's Numberwang!

Location: Melbourne
The RTM (in it's current form) is no longer a member driven organisation, it's an arm of the government, with government appointed and paid staff with a taxpayer funded income.

Politicians and political expediency will call the shots now.

The RTM has IMHO effectively disbanded itself.

It might work, I don't know, but more likely they will engage marketing consultants who will say it needs to 'reposition' the brand and within 2 years 3801 will be painted scarlet and have 'Hogwarts Castle' painted on it's sides. Heritage will go out the window in the chase for the tourist dollar.
matthewg
I do hope you're being facetious, or that's one impressive over-reaction... Why not wait until the dust has settled before jumping to conclusions?
  allambee Chief Train Controller

The RTM (in it's current form) is no longer a member driven organisation, it's an arm of the government, with government appointed and paid staff with a taxpayer funded income.
matthewg
So there will be no further need for tax deductable status and fundraising?

What about the RTM owned steam and diesel rolling stock (not the "deed of gift stuff"), who gets control of these? locos like BHP #16, Emu Sand and Gravel #1, BHP/AIS Bronzewing? --- Now all the property of the NSW Government?
  matthewg Train Controller

So there will be no further need for tax deductable status and fundraising?

What about the RTM owned steam and diesel rolling stock (not the "deed of gift stuff"), who gets control of these? locos like BHP #16, Emu Sand and Gravel #1, BHP/AIS Bronzewing? --- Now all the property of the NSW Government?
allambee
I'm sure clever legal types are working all this out.

I'm also pretty sure they won't want to lose the revenue from tax exempt donations, so I'm sure something will be worked out so there is a tax exempt charitable subsidiary to take money of those who wish to donate.

It's going to be one of those 'the devil's in the details' jobs.

But hey, it might actually work.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I trust all of those who are so concerned are RTM members who voted when the time came? I assume they all read all of the literature provided and spoke to other people who might have been on the fence to ensure their votes were also counted? I assume this in good faith, otherwise it's really, REALLY easy to stand on the sideline and throw stones.

EDIT: Oh, and in the theme of "making outrageous statements and not sticking around to back them up", let me say that this will be my only public comment on the matter.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
We have those that think a local should have done the job but there is no evidence that local manufacturers are actually up to the task or indeed would want the work. It seems a group with a good reputation like DB may seem a logical choice to those aware of all the facts. The NSW could possibly seek compensation from DB for the revenue forgone due to the problems with the boiler.
nswtrains
Check this link out because Puffing Billy Clearly Disagree http://www.puffingbilly.com.au/about-puffing-billy/workshop-updates/
Look at the Post for the 20th of September 2013.
  tezza Chief Commissioner

Here's another one up to the task of boiler construction nswtrains, you might need to learn how to do some research .

http://www.southernhighlandnews.com.au/story/1061457/boiler-bid-on-historic-loco/

Boiler bid on historic loco
By Leon ObergJan. 14, 2009, 1:14 a.m.
GOULBURN engineer Ken Ainsworth is not daunted by the prospect that his firm could receive a contract to build a 32-tonne boiler for glamour heritage steam locomotive, 3801.
Tenders were called by RailCorp in October and again in November, seeking a new boiler for their high profile 204-tonne streamlined express steam locomotive, which is undergoing full restoration at the Rail Transport Museum’s Thirlmere compound.

The 3801 locomotive has historic links to the Highlands, having completed the Cockatoo Run to Robertson for many years.
Believing several overseas firms had tendered for the work in the first round, Mr Ainsworth, who has 30 years experience building and repairing steam boilers and equipment, was “incensed” it might not be built in Australia.
“After all, it is an iconic Australian locomotive, built in 1942 by Australians to an Australian design,” he said.
While Mr Ainsworth conceded there were few people left with the expertise to build railway locomotive boilers, and particularly one so large, he pointed out the engineering required was simply “straightout traditional heavy fabrication”.
“There is nothing scientific about steam boilers in locomotive use,” he said.
Tenders closed on December 3 and the successful tenderer could be known by late January.
  allambee Chief Train Controller


While Mr Ainsworth conceded there were few people left with the expertise to build railway locomotive boilers, and particularly one so large, he pointed out the engineering required was simply “straightout traditional heavy fabrication”.
“There is nothing scientific about steam boilers in locomotive use,” he said.
tezza
He's right. All you have to do is roll and form plate. Any items that cannot be done in house can be subcontracted locally then brought back to the workshop for assembly.
Then hire competent welders to weld the thing together.
Companies such as L&A Pressure & ER Curtian in Sydney turn out all sorts of pressure vessels and petrochemical columns and reactors all the time.

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