Bankstown Line Future

 
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
High speed crossovers these days are the norm, with catchpoints or swinging the junction one signal protection will be available, we just need to negotiate with ARTC who probably have the lease and will want nothing to do with the Banka but RailCorp own it and may one day choose to push the point, all theoretically of course but if it moves more people they might consider it.

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  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
High speed crossovers these days are the norm, with catchpoints or swinging the junction one signal protection will be available, we just need to negotiate with ARTC who probably have the lease and will want nothing to do with the Banka but RailCorp own it and may one day choose to push the point, all theoretically of course but if it moves more people they might consider it.
Junction box
If you're going to persist with ignoring logic, then we may as well build a whole new underground Bankstown Line with high capacity signalling, single deck driverless metro stock, and link it to the N/W rail link via an under the city connection.

That is still a better reasoned fantasy than your imaginary crossovers, re-signalling and use of freight lines for passenger trains. I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but clearly ignorance is bliss. That's not an attack on you, as I applaud your thinking outside of the box, but you really have no idea how railways operate?
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Im smart enough to know the current line is steam era double track in the guts of the Sydney metrop and fast trains to the city would be popular not to mention running freight down the Banka after the peak is a quick way to the South giving the operators another option, anyway Im not going to argue with you, it was a hypothetical option for the future in an era where they are spending billions on cross city tunnels.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Im smart enough to know the current line is steam era double track in the guts of the Sydney metrop and fast trains to the city would be popular not to mention running freight down the Banka after the peak is a quick way to the South giving the operators another option, anyway Im not going to argue with you, it was a hypothetical option for the future in an era where they are spending billions on cross city tunnels.
Junction box
Obviously my comments were taken the wrong way, and for any offence caused I apologize. What I am suggesting is that your "solution" is so unworkable and yet you persist with suggesting it would solve problems when it clearly will not. That is what I mean by "ignorance is bliss". I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
  Alfred3333 Locomotive Fireman

Okay, sure, having bi di, crossovers and passenger services on the metro goods line will almost be impossible, what other suggestions do you put forward or are you sticking towards the Sydney's Rail Future plan where Bankstown services will be converted to metro-style trains? The plan doesn't seem to account for predicted population growth along the Bankstown Line with only 12 tph in peak, which will mean only a bare amount of improvement in 20-30 years time.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Okay, sure, having bi di, crossovers and passenger services on the metro goods line will almost be impossible, what other suggestions do you put forward or are you sticking towards the Sydney's Rail Future plan where Bankstown services will be converted to metro-style trains? The plan doesn't seem to account for predicted population growth along the Bankstown Line with only 12 tph in peak, which will mean only a bare amount of improvement in 20-30 years time.
Alfred3333
I didn't realise the onus was on me to come up with a workable solution? I was simply explaining why THAT "solution" wouldn't work.
  Alfred3333 Locomotive Fireman

Maintenance works, tree and plant cutting and cleaning the Metro Goods Tracks are being carried out since last week (or the week before??).
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

Maintenance works, tree and plant cutting and cleaning the Metro Goods Tracks are being carried out since last week (or the week before??).
Alfred3333
That will be the start of running freight and pass on the same tracks. It works so well on the main north. Oh, hang on, it doesn't. ARTC is spending somewhere north of $1 billion to get 4 paths per hour each-way because the present arrangement is a complete disaster. Do some research on the forecast increase in container movements through Port Botany. The next change to the Sydney Freight line will be the extension of mainline signalling through Cooks with duplication to Botany sure to follow.
  Alfred3333 Locomotive Fireman

Sydney commuters will be expecting a new underground Bankstown metro linked with the North West rail via the 2nd Harbour Crossing...IN 30 YEARS!!! The remaining city circle slots in pm peak will be allocated for the SWRL meaning no additional train services can be provided for the future of the Bankstown in at LEAST 30 years if nothing is done to untangle the network in the CBD. What a joke!
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
Sydney commuters will be expecting a new underground Bankstown metro linked with the North West rail via the 2nd Harbour Crossing...IN 30 YEARS!!! The remaining city circle slots in pm peak will be allocated for the SWRL meaning no additional train services can be provided for the future of the Bankstown in at LEAST 30 years if nothing is done to untangle the network in the CBD. What a joke!
Alfred3333
You really need to get over your obsession with the Bankstown line, and approach it from the POV of what is best for the network, and what will achieve the best "bang for the buck".

Dave
  Alfred3333 Locomotive Fireman

Bankstown Line Trackwork This Weekend!

Between Bankstown - Sydenham

Buses will replace trains while maintenance works are carried out.
- Replacing sections of the rail
- Replacing junctions
- Cleaning the corridor
- Removal of excessive vegetation

Approximately $4 million dollars will be spent which will benefit customers to a more pleasant journey.
  MILW Junior Train Controller

Location: Earth
If you're going to persist with ignoring logic, then we may as well build a whole new underground Bankstown Line with high capacity signalling, single deck driverless metro stock, and link it to the N/W rail link via an under the city connection. That is still a better reasoned fantasy than your imaginary crossovers, re-signalling and use of freight lines for passenger trains.
Raichase
High speed crossovers these days are the norm, with catchpoints or swinging the junction one signal protection will be available, we just need to negotiate with ARTC who probably have the lease and will want nothing to do with the Banka but RailCorp own it and may one day choose to push the point, all theoretically of course but if it moves more people they might consider it.
Junction box

Yes, it seems the Bankstown Line is stuck with conventional automatic signalling for the time being... meaning forever until the long term plans come to fruition, assuming they will. The fact that long term plans exist is probably enough to put paid to anything else being done with what is out there now. But I can see you were only speaking of what is theoretically possible rather than seriously suggesting it should happen. Personally, I think having a lot of skip stoppers on the Banka, while nice for residents of Campsie and Bankstown, is basically a waste of time. Sorry guys, you are stuck with all stations and maybe a couple of fasties per day.

I am not advocating using the Goods, but in terms of resignalling it for passenger trains, I am not sure it is actually signalled as a goods line in the traditional sense. There are no trainstops, but I am pretty sure it has generous overlaps and there is no permissive working on the main lines, whereas purpose built goods lines were traditionally scant on such measures compared to passenger lines. From a safety perspective, the Goods probably already meets passenger requirements, just not for high density traffic, although that might not be required anyway. In fact, inserting additional signals would not be a big deal, if it was needed, but bringing back crossovers? Not any time soon. That would be an about turn, as pointed out, because points are being ripped out all over the place.


High speed crossovers these days are the norm, with catchpoints or swinging the junction one signal protection will be available, we just need to negotiate with ARTC who probably have the lease and will want nothing to do with the Banka but RailCorp own it and may one day choose to push the point, all theoretically of course but if it moves more people they might consider it.
Junction box

Two signal protection is not actually a requirement, even without trap points or flank protection (swinging the junction). It is a matter of signal placement relative to the points/crossings, i.e. the length of the overlap provided and what that overlap extends onto (e.g. junction set for conflicting movement). It is often convenient to have a signal at the clearing point (rather than "a point one quarter mile in advance of xxxx" etc), forming a whole block overlap, but there are not always two red signals before a trailing junction, even in "oversignalled" Sydney. In other words, if the signal is far enough in rear of the junction, there is no need for trap points or two signal protection; the extra distance is not necessarily an issue and it saves the expense of a trap/extra signal while imposing a time penalty, which may or may not be a problem in practice. In any case, time release of route locking allows trains to be brought right up to trailing junctions without trap points. On 19th century pure mechanical interlocking (without control by track circuit), trailing junction points can be freed by restoring the outer home signal lever from either route to normal, as you would know (of course the signaller would not actually move the points until he had ensured the approaching train had stopped at the inner home using his Mk I Eyeball). Examples of this primitive but reliable arrangement also still exist in the network in 2013 and you have probably worked them.

And really, high speed crossovers in NSW are a joke... aside from the basic fact that they are slow, the joke is reinforced by the use of multi lamp route indicators on "high speed" junction signals in NSW that are considered unsuitable for high speeds in the UK because they become difficult to read. I look forward to seeing a 160 or 200 kmh-1 turnout in NSW, but unless we get HSR, forget it.

As for bidirectional signalling, I think it is a pain in the backside and all the extra equipment required makes it expensive (but obviously much cheaper than building new lines). In reality, I believe the powers that be are happy to see occasional on time running disasters when things go wrong rather than spending millions for added flexibility that might allow trains to keep moving when one line is blocked due to a failure/accident or even just for overtaking slower trains. Despite its benefits, it does not make a great deal of financial sense to go for that sort of gold plating. On top of that, fast and wrong line (bidi) movements wreak havoc with line capacity, which is why it is confined to areas where it will be used often or really needed (where freight trains often fail/need to be passed by pax, in long tunnels like the ECRL where we do not want people trapped etc). It makes more sense to optimise what you have in terms of timetabling, and to reduce threats to the smooth operation of the timetable as much as possible. The question is, can we manage that?


Sydney's Rail Future identifies the Bankstown Line to be converted to SINGLE DECK METRO in 20-30 years time with ONLY 12 TPH in peak hours. HOW WOULD 12 SINGLE DECK METRO TRAINS PER HOUR CATER FOR THE CURRENT 8 DOUBLE DECK TRAINS PER HOUR, AND THAT FUTURE RAIL PLAN IS IN 20-30 YEARS TIME WHERE POPULATION ALONG THE BANKSTOWN LINE WILL DRAMATICALLY INCREASE!!!
Alfred3333
Maybe they know something that we do not. Theoretically and without getting into details of where our economy could be heading in the next thirty years, they might not be quite as wrong about that as you think. In any case, if the population / patronage does keep growing, people will have to get used to having less personal space on trains, as is already the norm elsewhere. The age of abundance is over.


if trains must physically cross at a diamond crossover then late trains in one direction can completely screw with trains running in the opposite direction.
Raichase
One of the great ills of the network. The sooner it is fixed, the better. I just hope the solution really is better than the problem.
  KngtRider Chief Commissioner

Location: http://www.nitroware.net
Alot of the comments in this thread are a load of crap.

I've lived on the Bankstown line my whole life. I used it heavily for school commuting, university, work and recreation. Used it to go gunzelling, used it to get to the airport. I am fortunate stations on my line have lifts and fortunate for air conditioning and night ride buses.

I have caught the first train of the morning at 4AM and the last train at night and every other time in between, weekdays and weekends and every hour in between. I have also used the night ride N40 bus way too many times to care and recall.

And it doesn't help being a gunzel either.

Some of my fondest memories were as a child gunzelng the goods line and seeing the clusterf of different types of freights old and new grubby and not,
Trials of the Tangara on the line. Even the NRC/Enfield shutdown when they routed everything via the suburban and there was a constant stream of freights in both directions. The newer stuff wasn't introduced with fanfare.

I am disappointed operationally and as a gunzel that claims saying the points have been taken out at Campsie. I have been on many hertiage excursions around the goods line where the train would shunt between goods and suburban at the Canterbury end of Campsie and several diverted Cityrail services via the Goods line due to inner west trackwork in the mid to late 90s.

I can honestly say the WORST crush loads I have ever encoutered were on the main west line heading out west from the CBD/Strathfield during arvo peak and on the North Shore line heading north.

A few times on main west trains out of Strathfield in weekday evening peak the station staff have had to exercise crowd control to ensure the doors could close, Japanese style..

I have never ever in my life had a situation where it was ultra crushed on my line. In fact my line suffers from 'I don't want to sit next to you' syndrome where people wont ask someone to move over.

There has not been signficant delays or cancelations compared to other lines. The most vivid delay I can recall was a 20min wait at Meeks Road (signals issue?) where I remember some old ladies mentioning the usual 'must be something wrong with the tyres' excuse.

The most recent timetable switch has been interesting to me as I have had to get my head around it after almost 30yrs of catching almost-always anti clockwise city circle services.

I am now used to it and dont mind it, but my feeling is for trains which go around the circle and not straight through Cityrail should be trying to spread the passenger load across all the City Circle stations rather than just have given up and saying ohh everyones going to town hall/wynard lets just route everything there first. Great idea. Town Hall feels more crowded these days.

Guess what Cityrail. Town Hall is a block from Museum station yet Museum is often empty.... I guess people have forgotten how to walk and they haven't really done a good job educating the public about this.

Its almost 10mins around the City Circle either direction. If you are late or in a hurry, the sooner you get off the better as you need to walk to your destination anyway. A good example of this is Liverpool st/World Square as its in the proximity of Central, Museum and Town Hall.

I don't see enough passengers dwelling on platforms waiting for the next train east of Bankstown to warrant more than 4TPH offpeak. I often miss the train by a minute or two my fault for not leaving in time. Often the station empties out completely after the train leaves. I have only seen the transits once since the all mighty re-brand took place.

A trend I have been noticing however are more passengers late at night n the 10-12PM zone but that iss likely a sign of the times as more shift workers and stores/amenities open later compared to past years..

Since the timetable change, I may have narrowly missed being late for some important functions compared to going the other direction
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
The most recent timetable switch has been interesting to me as I have had to get my head around it after almost 30yrs of catching almost-always anti clockwise city circle services.

I am now used to it and dont mind it, but my feeling is for trains which go around the circle and not straight through Cityrail should be trying to spread the passenger load across all the City Circle stations rather than just have given up and saying ohh everyones going to town hall/wynard lets just route everything there first. Great idea. Town Hall feels more crowded these days.

Guess what Cityrail. Town Hall is a block from Museum station yet Museum is often empty.... I guess people have forgotten how to walk and they haven't really done a good job educating the public about this.

Its almost 10mins around the City Circle either direction. If you are late or in a hurry, the sooner you get off the better as you need to walk to your destination anyway. A good example of this is Liverpool st/World Square as its in the proximity of Central, Museum and Town Hall.
KngtRider
I think it is more a case of there being an imbalance between trains coming in from the west and going out via the south that causes this.

From my understanding, there are more trains coming in from Sydenham than there are that need to go out to Ashfield, likewise, there are fewer trains coming in from Ashfield than there are that need to go out to Sydenham.

Making some trains (the Banko's, in this case) arrive into the Silly Circus in the wrong direction redresses this, and ensures that all trains are leaving in the right direction, i.e. all Sydenham-bound trains use the City Outer, all Ashfield-bound trains use the City Inner.

Dave
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one, there is no point having skip stoppers in the peak unless you have clear track, you won't have clear track unless you create some options.

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