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Noarlunga Line Shutdown

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      2001 Moderator The Snow Lord

    Location: The road jump at Charlotte Pass. Paxman Valenta on two planks.
    spot the problem with the sign. (Compared to the International Standard that you posted.)
    sr1180
    The result of my one-minute google image search. Couldn't find any erect, only those flaccid ...
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 11:29

    Last edited by 2001 on 24 Dec 2013 11:30; edited 1 time in total

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      justapassenger Minister for Railways

    There is no international standard for road signs. Conforming to the normal practice for advisory signs (i.e. the gold square) as used on all roads in Australia instead of introducing non-standard road signage is probably best practice in that case.

    I would be more concerned about advisory signs like that restricting sightlines and obscuring regulatory signs such as the "stop on red signal" one behind it.
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 11:30

    Last edited by justapassenger on 24 Dec 2013 11:31; edited 1 time in total
      trainznbuses Train Controller

    Location: Seacliff Park, SA
    Um, spot the problem with the sign. (Compared to the International Standard that you posted.)


    sr1180
    Spot the difference?
    Well besides the obvious (The International one is on a triangle and the local example is on a diamond shaped sign, I would suggest that the International one has the bolt of static coming from the sky and the local one is coming from the ground - yikes Shocked
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 12:54
      2001 Moderator The Snow Lord

    Location: The road jump at Charlotte Pass. Paxman Valenta on two planks.
    Prefer the British, myself ...

    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 13:08
      steam4ian Chief Commissioner

    Depends on which part of the cycle the discharge is initiated, even the "correct" British sign is right for only half the time.

    The sign at Seacliff may be right, lightning starts from leaders from the ground.

    As for boating types, 415V does quite well enough.
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 13:19
      don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

    Location: Adelaide proud
    As for boating types, 415V does quite well enough.
    steam4ian
    Boating and accidental deaths go hand in hand, don't they.  Maybe because people love to drink once they're out on the water on a hot sunny day -
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 13:49
      nscaler69 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

    The only difference I thought was maybe Coles are the Energy provider, "down down, voltage is down". Laughing
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 14:53

    Last edited by nscaler69 on 24 Dec 2013 14:55; edited 1 time in total
      witsend Chief Commissioner

    Location: Front RH Seat of a School Bus
    It's upside down, Miss Rebecca Smile, upside down, upside down.....
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 14:58
      nm39 Chief Commissioner

    Location: By a road taking pictures
    Road routes can always be closed or diverted somewhere else. That kind of thing can be handled using announce and defend, or even announce and ignore as in the case of the sham request for public input on the Marion station urinal/tunnel.

    I would be more concerned about the higher wires increasing the chance of a pantograph getting entangled and pulling the kit down at the Morphett Road crossing than with the occasional tall load having to go a couple of kilometres further to use South Road.
    justapassenger

    You don't seem to understand the complexity of the problem. South Rd has been precluded from being OD route because of bridges as have many other roads in the Adelaide Metro Area. The impediments to OD routes include but are not limited to Bridge Structures, Overhead Transmission Lines, Roadside Furniture, Median Furniture, etc. This means that it is impossible to shift some loads into some areas and as a result careful planning has to happen to ensure that vital infrastucture is maintainable by not closing access. Please note a typical example of shifting such loads is the delivery of the new railcars. These could not be transported down through Crafers for this reason and had to go via Strathalbyn. If they had to be delivered to Port Adelaide then they would have had to go via Gawler if they could not go via Diagonal Rd or Brighton Rd.
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 15:08
      steam4ian Chief Commissioner

    Don

    Let's get this right off topic.

    The boaties at most risk are yachties who generally drink less than most. They would have to travel with the mast rigged to be in any danger and there are plenty of low slung power lines to get them first.
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 15:35
      steam4ian Chief Commissioner


    The only difference I thought was maybe Coles are the Energy provider, "down down, voltage is down". Laughing
    nscaler69
    Laughing
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 15:36
      Pressman Spirit of the Vine

    Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
    It's upside down, Miss Rebecca Smile, upside down, upside down.....
    "witsend"


    Not many here would understand the reference there Samuel.   We're showing our age!!!1
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 16:14
      nm39 Chief Commissioner

    Location: By a road taking pictures
    At the moment there is no standard sign in the DPTI Standard Signs Index for this hazard warning type for road use. Maybe there will be soon.
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 16:23
      Donald Chief Commissioner

    Location: Donald. Duck country.
    Why do South Aussies need a special sign at rail crossings?   Other states with electric trains don't need such signs at each level crossing.  
    There again, some Victorians can't even see a train crossing!
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 16:43
      fabricator Chief Commissioner

    Location: Gawler
    Um, spot the problem with the sign. (Compared to the International Standard that you posted.)

    sr1180

    It's all very well to try and blame the boat owners, but the rather unique dip down in the road where the level crossing is, is the more likely reason. Imagine crossing here with a large truck which normally would fit under the wires, but won't here due to the road being uneven.

    Etsa have had trouble in the past with this crossing, due to moving vans making contact with their wires.
    Posted: 24 Dec 2013 20:04
      don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

    Location: Adelaide proud
    Don

    Let's get this right off topic.

    The boaties at most risk are yachties who generally drink less than most. They would have to travel with the mast rigged to be in any danger and there are plenty of low slung power lines to get them first.
    steam4ian
    You're talking exclusively about fatalities from overhead power lines there? I was just referring to people who get drunk while fishing and drown. I grew up in a rural locale with lots of popular fishing spots where this was a frequent occurrence, sometimes in very shallow water but almost always at night when it's easy to get confused and lose sight of the shore.

    But the point about the extreme danger of high voltage overhead lines is a pertinent one; near my childhood home someone with a yacht came into contact with high voltage overhead while on the water and was lucky to survive. Particularly around Brighton and along the coast there you could potentially have people taking their rigged boats down to the water completely unaware of the new catenary overhead; likewise high loads of any sort could come into contact so I feel its a good precautionary measure to put those signs up.
    Posted: 25 Dec 2013 12:06
      David Peters Dr Beeching

    Location: "With Hey Boy".
    It's upside down, Miss Rebecca Smile, upside down, upside down.....
    witsend
    That was a bit later than what I remember though witsend, I can remember Miss Jane! Hurryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy up! Lol
    Posted: 25 Dec 2013 14:26
      steam4ian Chief Commissioner

    I trust you had a merry Christmas Don.

    I used to sail at Brighton & Seacliff Yatch Club and don't recall every seeing anyone travel beyond the car park with the mast rigged.

    I still traverse the Brighton Road almost daily and again haven't seen boats travelling with the mast still rigged. That is not to say some body will not try it.

    The Wheatland St crossing is more difficult than some because it is located in a dip. I do believe that there should be guard chains either side of the track at level crossings. Really just a pair of Stobie*  poles  either side of the track with a catenary wire slung between them then with chains hanging from it down to safe clearance height. *Stobie Pole, a particularly South Australian approach to a shortage of timber suitable for poles; it comprises side members of hot rolled steel section in a taper with concrete infill between the members.

    Ian.
    Posted: 26 Dec 2013 10:32
      don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

    Location: Adelaide proud
    Hey Ian, thanks for your Xmas wishes.  I (unexpectedly) got a new TV for Xmas so that really made my day.

    Given the amount of traffic we experience in our cities we're always bound to have accidents like over-dimension loads; boaties are not the only ones with potential to have an over-height accident.  Like we saw recently in Sydney, a truckie could accidentally raise a tip-tray while in transit; recently here in Melbourne a truck did millions of damage to the City-Link tunnels because his excavator raised its arm mid-transit.  No amount of signage will fix that but as you point out you could try erecting a barrier or something?  Hard to know how you can prevent those accidents but at least signage will remind people that the wires are actually there; many Adelaide people will be blissfully unaware of the existence of the deadly wires above the railway lines but the signs can go part of the way to trying to prevent silly accidents.

    I well remember Stobie poles.  Nothing stops a drunk driver like a Stobie pole!  I saw a few years ago where someone in a Ferrari got their car split in half and the good old Stobie pole didn't budge an inch...
    Posted: 26 Dec 2013 13:44
      don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

    Location: Adelaide proud
    So... back on topic.  No trains till New Year's Eve.  Is there any indication of what they're doing over the first of these prolonged 'mini' shut-downs?
    Posted: 28 Dec 2013 08:45
      steam4ian Chief Commissioner

    Don

    I will have to go to SASMEE today to pick up some files so will have a look at progress there and at Leader Street. The weekend before Christmas there were no wires at Leader St and they were working in the underpass; at SASMEE we had ring side seats during our annual barbecue.

    I noticed yesterday that the wiring under the Emerson bridge was not complete; although the wires were not pulled some were still in the snatch blocks and not tied off.

    Ian
    Posted: 28 Dec 2013 08:52
      don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

    Location: Adelaide proud
    Thanks for that Ian.  You would be able to see from SASMEE, is the under-pass done yet? As you alluded, they were working on it last week - perhaps that's what they're finishing during this current shut-down.  Thanks for your observations incidentally.
    Posted: 28 Dec 2013 11:10

    Last edited by don_dunstan on 28 Dec 2013 11:12; edited 1 time in total
      1S47 Assistant Commissioner

    Location: On the Down Fast
    . . . . . Is there any indication of what they're doing over the first of these prolonged 'mini' shut-downs?
    don_dunstan
    Regarding shutdowns, one location which will still need a significant shutdown is Tonsley Junction.
    So far the layout at the rebuilt Tonsley Junction is as it always was - a crossover on the main Noarlunga lines and a single track lead off to the Tonsley branch.
    The new second track on the Tonsley line (in the Up direction) has been built right up to the Down Noarlunga alongside Ascot Park station, but there is no connection, and no sign of any active preparation to make the connection.
    Graham Vincent's track diagram of the junction indicates a new diamond crossing and new trailing points will be needed (assuming the draft layout on SA Track and Signal website are accurate).
    The catenary at this site is strung as two simple parallel lines with no provision yet for wiring onto the Tonsley branch.
    While it might theoretically be possible to instal the double track Tonsley Junction over a weekend, I'm guessing the associated works and signalling modifications will need a longer shutdown than two days.
    My suspicion is the priorities of the electrification project are now politically motivated towards the March 2014 State Election.
    Priorities are:-
    1) Getting a basic catenary up on double track into Adelaide Station, so an EMU can be driven in there under power to great media fanfare.  This will happen late February, a convenient week or two before election date.  Many points and crossings and other "difficult bits" will not be attempted, focus is on getting two live wires from Brighton into Platforms 1 & 2 at Adelaide.
    2) Diesels return to Tonsley line in February, but using old single track arrangement and 1 per hour timetable.  New double track section will not be used.
    3) Opening Seaford line, but with diesel railcars initially

    4) Opening Showgrounds station in February (in an unfinished state, with lots of work still to be done).

    Once the March election is safely out of the way , whoever wins, there will be announcements of ongoing shutdowns into 2014 for all the unfinished work to be completed, including Adelaide Yard and Tonsley Junction to be rebuilt (both the track and the overhead).
    Posted: 28 Dec 2013 14:07
      steam4ian Chief Commissioner

    Unless others can advise to the contrary I do not think there are sufficient DEMUs to be able to extend the service to Seaford. Certainly even an hourly service to Tonsley will not be on with the vehicles available.

    From what I can see the ARS electrification of platforms 1-4 is further advanced than 1S47 reports, and remember I report pessimistically compared to others; even siding S4 is wired.

    It is possible that the 4 EMUs delivered to date could be operating for a February start up which might be just enough to squeak in a Seaford service if they share the role with the DEMUs.

    I did hear somewhere else that Tonsley junction will be done during a shut over Easter.

    Ian
    Posted: 28 Dec 2013 14:47
      justapassenger Minister for Railways

    Unless others can advise to the contrary I do not think there are sufficient DEMUs to be able to extend the service to Seaford. Certainly even an hourly service to Tonsley will not be on with the vehicles available.
    "steam4ian"
    There are enough to extend to Seaford (without any shortening of consists on any line) with all off-peak services and half of the services operating on the peak hour skip-stop timetable.

    To do that in the off-peak periods would simply require just one more consist in operation at a time, which would be run by one which would otherwise spend the daytime off-peak sitting in a platform at Adelaide or a siding. The half of peak hour extensions would be done by those consists which stable in the south overnight stabling at the Seaford Meadows EMU depot instead of Lonsdale, while those which return to the city from Noarlunga would continue doing so as they are currently.

    Extending only every second off-peak service to Seaford (or changing off-peak City-Noarlunga/Seaford frequency to 20 minutes from 15 and reintroducing Brighton/Tonsley stopping trains) could also be an option, the ~6.5km distance from the crossovers north of Noarlunga to Seaford being too long to do a return trip in 15 minutes with station stops and a change of ends included. This option would have the advantage of only requiring one bidirectional track south of Noarlunga, ideally using the western track on the bus interchange side and keeping the eastern track completely separated for Bombardier to do EMU commissioning runs.

    Of course there is also the simplest option - use one EMU to run a back-and-forth shuttle between Noarlunga and Seaford as soon as it has been accepted as ready to enter service, or get things started by just extending the peak services which stable overnight.

    Opening Seaford should be an urgent priority once the signalling is completed, out of all the signs that the projects haven't been going well the sight of two fully completed stations gathering dust with fences across the entrances nearly four months after they were supposed to open is by far the most visible. Opening the stations and running trains to them would be the best way to demonstrate the intention to get moving and finish the job instead of letting this be another South Australian half-done job.

    I did hear somewhere else that Tonsley junction will be done during a shut over Easter.
    "steam4ian"
    So long as it is taken with the appropriate dose of laughter, that was previously posted on the DPTI website before they rearranged it [again] where it now just says "mid 2014."

    But hey, if DPTI website announcements actually meant anything I could have ridden on an EMU to Seaford nearly four months ago.
    Posted: 28 Dec 2013 17:50

    Last edited by justapassenger on 28 Dec 2013 17:54; edited 1 time in total

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