Maldon Steam Spectacular October 26th 2013

 
  1553 Locomotive Fireman

1553,

Y112 hauling a mainline train from Melbourne to Castlemaine? Hardly realistic. Maybe pre-RFR, but not now. If it was still duel trackage, again, maybe. For starters, the tender only has capacity for 2200 gallons of water. This means that you have to either water on the run from a water gin (not impossible, but it does limit the amount of carriages you can haul, which in turn affects patronage), or stop to water the loco at regular intervals. The second and biggest problem you'd have is that the Y is limited to 60km/h maximum. Try getting V/Line to agree with running that amongst V'Locities - you'd be stuck in one of the loops for hours. Best to let the Y make it's way up light engine at night when it can't disrupt anything.

Strengthening bridges? Why? The VGR is a branchline. Why go to all that expense of strengthening something, when the heavier locos would only use it on odd occasions? Not very realistic at all.
Barrington Womble
Yes, the points you make about Y112 running on the main line are quite valid, it sounds near impossible to run it these days. Perhaps it is time for it to be a regular at say the VGR. True the expense of strengthening may not make it viable but, with the upgrading of the rail from 60 to 80lb soon to commence, it may be able to be incorporated within these works. Bridges may already be strong enough, I am not sure that it has been investigated that closely, probably not at all, at this stage.
What future would you like to see for Y112?  With all the man hours and expense to restore the loco, it seems wasted having it run a local shuttle once a year.

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  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
What I would like for Y112 doesn't come into it. It's up to Sovereign Hill Museums Association (who own the loco), and the people who care for it. I know that she needs a fair bit of work repairing/replacing cracked wheels etcetera, so regular use is out of the question at the moment. I'm happy enough to see it do it's local shuttles once a year, but that's me.

Regarding the upgrade of the line between Muckleford and Maldon, let's wait until it actually happens first. I know it'll happen, but I wouldn't want to put any undue pressure on the workforce up there, because it is not my place to do so (I'm no longer a member, despite always being interested in what they're achieving). I don't know exactly how they'd strengthen the bridges, as I understand many are near enough new structures between Castlemaine and Muckleford. Muckleford Creek trestle would be about the only hurdle, as I believe it still carries a 10Mph speed restriction due to some of the pilework or decking (can't remember which). Muckleford Creek trestle is the only bridge between Muckleford and Maldon. There were two small trestles between the 87 Mile peg and Bendigo Road, but they were replaced by concrete pipes and backfilled in the early 1990's.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I reckon keep the Maldon line as close as possible (without compromising safety) to being an authentic VR branch line.

I also agree with Mr Womble that Y112 needs to be nursed, not thrashed every 2nd weekend.  Be glad it's still not on a plinth...

If it ever did venture to Maldon - it would either have to be done at 1:00am or the Vic Govt restores the Maryborough - Castlemaine line (good luck with that).
  Salty21 Junior Train Controller

Location: Canberra
Re Cracked wheels.

Contact Canberra ARHS they had a lot of success with welding and filling with 1210's wheels ! 1210 hopefully will be in service in the near future the reasons that is not in service at the moment have nothing to do with the wheels!  

Good luck with the Y class when I saw the videos of it running to Melbourne it brought back a lot of memories of 1210 as they are both green!
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
I'm sure Steamrail are aware of 1210's repairs. Even back in WCR days, there was talk of new driving wheel castings. They couldn't justify the costs at the time, so it never happened.
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
1210s wheels weren't welded. They were repaired by the same method as that done to the wheels on  the Y class.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Can you elaborate a little please, Dave? I have no idea what method has been used.
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
Just remembered the name, Metalok (not sure of the spelling). Basically (very basically) staples.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
Just remembered the name, Metalok (not sure of the spelling). Basically (very basically) staples.
Fireman Dave
http://www.metalockaustralia.com/
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Thanks for that. Appreciate it.
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
... I don't know exactly how they'd strengthen the bridges, as I understand many are near enough new structures between Castlemaine and Muckleford.
Barrington Womble

The bridge at Sawmill Rd still carries a 10mph restriction. I'm told the deck is not in a good way (the deck appears to have a kink halfway along, unsure what the cause is).

The former bridge near MP87 was replaced with culverts from the former Shelbourne line. The local mining company donated rockfill to create the new embankment over this culvert.
  1553 Locomotive Fireman

I reckon keep the Maldon line as close as possible (without compromising safety) to being an authentic VR branch line.

I also agree with Mr Womble that Y112 needs to be nursed, not thrashed every 2nd weekend.  Be glad it's still not on a plinth...

If it ever did venture to Maldon - it would either have to be done at 1:00am or the Vic Govt restores the Maryborough - Castlemaine line (good luck with that).
Carnot
Carnot, do you honestly believe the locos at VGR are "thrashed"?  I have spent a fair bit of time at the VGR since its beginning and I have never seen a loco at the VGR be thrashed.  The K & J with the regular 3-4 car pass train are hardly challenged and can climb the 1/40 grades in first barrel with as little as a 9" cut-off.  The Y class, if it were to run on the line, not having that much less tractive effort, would similarly not have to work all that hard to haul the regular pass.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Carnot, do you honestly believe the locos at VGR are "thrashed"?  I have spent a fair bit of time at the VGR since its beginning and I have never seen a loco at the VGR be thrashed.  The K & J with the regular 3-4 car pass train are hardly challenged and can climb the 1/40 grades in first barrel with as little as a 9" cut-off.  The Y class, if it were to run on the line, not having that much less tractive effort, would similarly not have to work all that hard to haul the regular pass.
1553
Ok, probably the wrong choice of words.  Just general day-to-day wear and tear I suppose.  If Y112 did venture onto VGR for a visit that would be well worth travelling on and/or photographing.  I just can't see it being run too often if it spent time there, especially in comparison with the J or K class locos.

Incidentally, did Y-class steam locos ever work the Maldon/Shelbourne lines back in VR days?
  1553 Locomotive Fireman

I think Mr Womble missed the gist of my original post re the Y and A2 hauling the train. Maybe if I was to say; To be totally realistic, I can’t see anything new that can be provided for railfans other than an R attached to the Maldon transfer loco, either K or D3, hauling the train from Melb. There is a slim chance of using A2 986 but again, in reality, if it is ready by Sep-Oct, it could well have teething problems, hold ups with accreditation/paperwork or lack of qualified crew to operate it etc etc. Y112 would be unsuitable on the mainline for reasons already discussed. R711 is still unlikely to run due to the limited number of qualified crew (all being available on the one day). So I suspect once again it will be R761 and K190 at the head of the mainline train.

So the question is what can Les (operations manager) do on the branch line to offer something different. I know he is always open to suggestions and, as it is one of the few trips specifically for railfans, do any readers have suggestions on what they would like to see and think is feasible. I still suggest the Y is feasible, perhaps without any infrastructure upgrading. The F class does have a higher axle load rating than the Y. Has anyone witnessed the F class travel the line?
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
I think Mr Womble missed the gist of my original post re the Y and A2 hauling the train. Maybe if I was to say; To be totally realistic, I can’t see anything new that can be provided for railfans other than an R attached to the Maldon transfer loco, either K or D3, hauling the train from Melb. There is a slim chance of using A2 986 but again, in reality, if it is ready by Sep-Oct, it could well have teething problems, hold ups with accreditation/paperwork or lack of qualified crew to operate it etc etc. Y112 would be unsuitable on the mainline for reasons already discussed. R711 is still unlikely to run due to the limited number of qualified crew (all being available on the one day). So I suspect once again it will be R761 and K190 at the head of the mainline train.

So the question is what can Les (operations manager) do on the branch line to offer something different. I know he is always open to suggestions and, as it is one of the few trips specifically for railfans, do any readers have suggestions on what they would like to see and think is feasible. I still suggest the Y is feasible, perhaps without any infrastructure upgrading. The F class does have a higher axle load rating than the Y. Has anyone witnessed the F class travel the line?
1553
As one can imagine, there isn't a great deal that can be done on the mainline. A2 986 will have it's own issues and personally I cannot see this loco being out on the mainline in 2014. Could possibly do a couple shakedown/training runs from Newport to Brooklyn and return but it's a long shot. It will be the general run of the mill consists seen on the mainline between Melbourne and Castlemaine.

On the branchline itself there are a few ideas floating around which will be discussed with the VGR and SRV. Some of these idea's floating around are mixed trains, different loco combinations, a weekend on the railway as a Steamfreight with a SRV train departing Melbourne Friday returning Sunday arvo.

The V Cars will hopefully make their way to Castlemaine sometime in 2014 when the shed is finished and able to be locked up. I very much doubt Y112 will make the journey to Maldon in 2014, plans are in place for the loco to possibly head to Maldon in 2015 and we would love to use the XYZ set that currently resides at the SRHC. K160 will also travel to Newport sometime early on in 2014 for major repairs/overhaul so she can run on the branchline/mainline once again.

Definitely open of sensible idea's on what to do on the branchline for these transfer moves because at the end of the day, it is a gunzel trip and we love to see the railfans walk away happy and fulfilled as it being the only time now days we can run such a trip.

Cheers
  Clarke Hudswell Junior Train Controller

I see that LowndesJ515 has answered the question of whether Y112 can be operated on the VGR, by letting us know that there are plans in place for the loco to possibly head to Maldon in 2015. I had done some research prior to this advice, and as it is still relevant to the discussion, I will advise what I found.

I spoke to the VGR’s ICP (Infrastructure) [ICP = Independent Competent Person] who advised that the bridges are in a good condition, and suitable for the Y class. The only problem with the line is the 60"D" rail which had a tendency to break whenever they ran their T class. The ICP said that that VGR run their F class satisfactorily and if the axle loads and axle spacings of the Y class do not impose greater stresses on the rail, then the Y class would be suitable.

I then obtained loco diagrams and the history cards for Y112 from t_woodroffe and compared this information with the 1952 VR loco diagram for the F class . Although there is some variation in weights, in summary, Y 112, with a maximum axle load of 15 ton 7 cwt, is about 5 ton lighter in total than an F class, which has a max axle load of 16 t 14 cwt. (Y class diesel electric locomotives have an axle load of 16 ton).

The ICP thus considers that Y 112 is suitable for operation on the Maldon branchline.
  G41 Chief Commissioner

Location: Footplate of any K class
As nice as it would to see, the F class is limited to small shunt duties only as it has suffered, for many years, hot axle boxes and with no simple way of getting the axle boxes out to re-metal it really is just stuck at Maldon.
From what I was told, they are waiting on fish plates for the 80lb. rail before replacing the well worn 60lb.
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
I see that LowndesJ515 has answered the question of whether Y112 can be operated on the VGR, by letting us know that there are plans in place for the loco to possibly head to Maldon in 2015. I had done some research prior to this advice, and as it is still relevant to the discussion, I will advise what I found.

I spoke to the VGR’s ICP (Infrastructure) [ICP = Independent Competent Person] who advised that the bridges are in a good condition, and suitable for the Y class. The only problem with the line is the 60"D" rail which had a tendency to break whenever they ran their T class. The ICP said that that VGR run their F class satisfactorily and if the axle loads and axle spacings of the Y class do not impose greater stresses on the rail, then the Y class would be suitable.

I then obtained loco diagrams and the history cards for Y112 from t_woodroffe and compared this information with the 1952 VR loco diagram for the F class . Although there is some variation in weights, in summary, Y 112, with a maximum axle load of 15 ton 7 cwt, is about 5 ton lighter in total than an F class, which has a max axle load of 16 t 14 cwt. (Y class diesel electric locomotives have an axle load of 16 ton).

The ICP thus considers that Y 112 is suitable for operation on the Maldon branchline.
Clarke Hudswell
It is hoped by 2015 that the rail had been changed. I should note that nothing is in cement either with all the plans. One thing for certain is that there will be transfer trains and trips to Maldon from Southern Cross.
  1553 Locomotive Fireman

I see that LowndesJ515 has answered the question of whether Y112 can be operated on the VGR, by letting us know that there are plans in place for the loco to possibly head to Maldon in 2015. I had done some research prior to this advice, and as it is still relevant to the discussion, I will advise what I found.

I spoke to the VGR’s ICP (Infrastructure) [ICP = Independent Competent Person] who advised that the bridges are in a good condition, and suitable for the Y class. The only problem with the line is the 60"D" rail which had a tendency to break whenever they ran their T class. The ICP said that that VGR run their F class satisfactorily and if the axle loads and axle spacings of the Y class do not impose greater stresses on the rail, then the Y class would be suitable.

I then obtained loco diagrams and the history cards for Y112 from t_woodroffe and compared this information with the 1952 VR loco diagram for the F class . Although there is some variation in weights, in summary, Y 112, with a maximum axle load of 15 ton 7 cwt, is about 5 ton lighter in total than an F class, which has a max axle load of 16 t 14 cwt. (Y class diesel electric locomotives have an axle load of 16 ton).

The ICP thus considers that Y 112 is suitable for operation on the Maldon branchline.
Clarke Hudswell






Thanks for providing the technical information on the logistics of running the Y class at Maldon.

I have an idea to suggest for maybe the 2015 Annual VGR railfan event (when Les has stated the Y class may be present, probably dependant on track upgrade), it is a bit left of centre so I will probably get my head bitten off on this forum! Like most things it depends on finance and labour being available to do it. My suggestion is to place the E class back on the line and be hauled, not in steam, directly behind the Y class. I believe any vehicle needs accreditation before it can run but this may be as simple as checking the wheels for correct profile and the functioning of the brake rigging etc? The E has some obvious advantages to this suggestion in that being an 0-6-2 it has only 8 axle boxes needing attention and, because it has inside valve gear and cylinders, the connecting rods can be removed without it bearing any visual difference to the onlooker - hence the coupling rods and wheels are the only moving parts.

If the idea of this annual event is to attract more fans, the promotion of the Y and E class heading a small goods, or mixed, train up through the forest must surely serve this purpose. The loco could then also be used on display in no.3 road at Maldon or Muckleford on Thomas the Tank engine weekends as it would very much look the part. I understand all the hurdles such an idea presents and perhaps it borders on being unrealistic! Any comments?


  VBAndy Chief Commissioner

The E is just a rust filled shell of an engine, a bright blue shell at that. It has damage to the frame and drivers from years of the axles sliding around in the boxes. For the uses as proposed it'd need a complete cosmetic restoration, and then there is the time and effort needed to connect up temporary track to drag it off its plinth. Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I think it is very unlikely the VGR would consider it a project worthy of their resources.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I see that LowndesJ515 has answered the question of whether Y112 can be operated on the VGR, by letting us know that there are plans in place for the loco to possibly head to Maldon in 2015. I had done some research prior to this advice, and as it is still relevant to the discussion, I will advise what I found.

I spoke to the VGR’s ICP (Infrastructure) [ICP = Independent Competent Person] who advised that the bridges are in a good condition, and suitable for the Y class. The only problem with the line is the 60"D" rail which had a tendency to break whenever they ran their T class. The ICP said that that VGR run their F class satisfactorily and if the axle loads and axle spacings of the Y class do not impose greater stresses on the rail, then the Y class would be suitable.

I then obtained loco diagrams and the history cards for Y112 from t_woodroffe and compared this information with the 1952 VR loco diagram for the F class . Although there is some variation in weights, in summary, Y 112, with a maximum axle load of 15 ton 7 cwt, is about 5 ton lighter in total than an F class, which has a max axle load of 16 t 14 cwt. (Y class diesel electric locomotives have an axle load of 16 ton).

The ICP thus considers that Y 112 is suitable for operation on the Maldon branchline.
Clarke Hudswell
Well done Clarke Hudswell...!... There is nothing like good data.
I can think of no more suitable long term home for Y 112 where it can operate within its design limits unhindered by operations on the main line.
  D3621 Locomotive Driver

Location: Castlemaine Vic
Like others have said in this conversation. When the VGR replaces the rail in between Maldon and Muckleford with the heavier 80lb rail then it would be suitable to run the Y on the VGR. The E class will not run unless some filthy rich person with a lot of money decides to buy, restore and the run the locomotive (that being said it would be probably cheaper to build a new E class) but that can be left for another discussion. The E is only at the VGR as a static exhibit.
As per Y112, it would be excellent to see it run on the VGR. Running the Y the VGR like the current situation with R711 and D3 639 (when it was at the VGR) is having crews that are familiar and qualified to run the locomotive on the branchline. So crews will be needed to be trained and when they do the Y can run on the VGR. Even then you have to get permission from the owners of Y112 to run it at Maldon. The Sovereign Hill Museums Association only allow it to run a few times a year, it means that they dont want to run it a lot. If the VGR uses the Y like they used the D3 (only as a backup loco and used on special occasions), there is a greater chance that Sovereign Hill Museums Association will/would allow the use of the Y.
  Clarke Hudswell Junior Train Controller

Like others have said in this conversation. When the VGR replaces the rail in between Maldon and Muckleford with the heavier 80lb rail then it would be suitable to run the Y on the VGR. The E class will not run unless some filthy rich person with a lot of money decides to buy, restore and the run the locomotive (that being said it would be probably cheaper to build a new E class) but that can be left for another discussion. The E is only at the VGR as a static exhibit.
As per Y112, it would be excellent to see it run on the VGR. Running the Y the VGR like the current situation with R711 and D3 639 (when it was at the VGR) is having crews that are familiar and qualified to run the locomotive on the branchline. So crews will be needed to be trained and when they do the Y can run on the VGR. Even then you have to get permission from the owners of Y112 to run it at Maldon. The Sovereign Hill Museums Association only allow it to run a few times a year, it means that they dont want to run it a lot. If the VGR uses the Y like they used the D3 (only as a backup loco and used on special occasions), there is a greater chance that Sovereign Hill Museums Association will/would allow the use of the Y.
D3621

The ICP has said that, because the F class has a successful history of operation on the current Maldon line, including the sections of 60 lb rail, then Y112 being lighter than the F and with a lower axle load, is suitable for operation there now and is not dependant on the use of heavier section rail.

My understanding of 1553's post is that he is proposing hauling the E class, cosmetically restored (not in steam) behind the Y as a demonstration of 19th Century steam power, not fully restoring it to service.

Operation of the Y class on the 16 km long branchline at speeds not exceeding 40 km/h will cause less wear and tear to this historic locomotive than running between Melbourne and Ballarat at speeds of 60 to 65 km/h for long periods.
  Clarke Hudswell Junior Train Controller

As one can imagine, there isn't a great deal that can be done on the mainline. A2 986 will have it's own issues and personally I cannot see this loco being out on the mainline in 2014. Could possibly do a couple shakedown/training runs from Newport to Brooklyn and return but it's a long shot. It will be the general run of the mill consists seen on the mainline between Melbourne and Castlemaine.

On the branchline itself there are a few ideas floating around which will be discussed with the VGR and SRV. Some of these idea's floating around are mixed trains, different loco combinations, a weekend on the railway as a Steamfreight with a SRV train departing Melbourne Friday returning Sunday arvo.

The V Cars will hopefully make their way to Castlemaine sometime in 2014 when the shed is finished and able to be locked up. I very much doubt Y112 will make the journey to Maldon in 2014, plans are in place for the loco to possibly head to Maldon in 2015 and we would love to use the XYZ set that currently resides at the SRHC. K160 will also travel to Newport sometime early on in 2014 for major repairs/overhaul so she can run on the branchline/mainline once again.

Definitely open of sensible idea's on what to do on the branchline for these transfer moves because at the end of the day, it is a gunzel trip and we love to see the railfans walk away happy and fulfilled as it being the only time now days we can run such a trip.

Cheers
LowndesJ515

Having travelled on Steamrail/ARE/ARHS fan trips since the 70s, there are only 2 things I am willing to part with money for now:

1. A2 986 - anywhere, anytime. Load trial at 2 am Sunday - no problem!

2. Y 112 on the Veteran (XYZ) carriage set on the Maldon line - we need to remember that before the R class on W cars, there was a whole century of fascinating VR history. Y class were regularly used on Sunday excursion trains to Healesville and Ferntree Gully.

Don't forget to offer cheap seats to the fans on transfer/test runs, like the load trials with R711 to Seymour a couple of years ago. I enjoyed that more than any publicised trip in many many years and Steamrail should make enough $$ to maybe pay for the coal (or oil), so why not?
  D3621 Locomotive Driver

Location: Castlemaine Vic
The ICP has said that, because the F class has a successful history of operation on the current Maldon line, including the sections of 60 lb rail, then Y112 being lighter than the F and with a lower axle load, is suitable for operation there now and is not dependant on the use of heavier section rail.

My understanding of 1553's post is that he is proposing hauling the E class, cosmetically restored (not in steam) behind the Y as a demonstration of 19th Century steam power, not fully restoring it to service.

Operation of the Y class on the 16 km long branchline at speeds not exceeding 40 km/h will cause less wear and tear to this historic locomotive than running between Melbourne and Ballarat at speeds of 60 to 65 km/h for long periods.
Clarke Hudswell

Sorry Clarke I should have been more specific on this... The E isn't worth at all cosmetically restoring it not at all (let alone putting it in steam). While it would be really interesting to see a Y class hauling a E... its not worth the money spent, more of a fact it would be a waste of resources and money getting the ticket and repairing it to allow it be hauled. On top of that getting the Y to Maldon will be a little bit tricky (not that hard tricky if you know what i mean, as you need to either transfer it via rail (that means going by Sunshine) and up to Castlemaine will most likely have to be done really early in the morning before peak hour traffic or after the evening peak hour traffic (eg the J515 transfer when it went to the VGR). Or transfer it by road.

While i completely agree with both what you and 1553 are saying, my opinion is that the owners of Y112 will not allow to run it often and they only run it on the occasion (like what the VGR did with D3 639. Im also stating that due to the age of the locomotive (being around 125 years old) it wouldn't be run a lot (again like the D3)

As for the rail. While it will be fine to run the Y on the 60lb rail, I would think to be safer to run it to run on 80lb rail, just to be on the safe side.

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