Noarlunga Line Shutdown

 
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Steamed.

Nobody and I repeat Nobody has "every right". People talking of THEIR rights gets me steamed up, the only thing any of us has is RESPONSIBILITIES.

Yesterday I posted the following on Noarlunga Line Commuters 2014

"Using running times from previous and the present time table I have shown a limited stops train interspersed with a stops all to Woodlands park and a Tonsley stops all possible with a 15 minute cycle. No headway is less than 3 minutes. Trains will take 33 minutes from Noarlunga Centre to Adelaide.

The old express from Noarlunga Centre direct to Adelaide will not work and yet retain the frequency of service. A limited stops would include the Hallett Coves, Brighton, Oaklands then Adelaide and take just 33 minutes (from NC), 38 minutes from Seaford.

I reiterate, these are using the published running times and don't use the Belair Main.

Send me a PM if you want to know more"

What I see from this is that ultimately faster services are possible and everybody gets a 15 minute interval.

What this relies on is restoration of a Tonsley line able to work trains at 15 minute intervals AND enough rolling stock to cover the services.

It is no secret here that I am not a supporter of the present government but I do believe in a fair thing for all, not just the residents of the Deep South.

Aaron is right, I am employed (self) and a professional and most people in my street are working, I do pay taxes.

Ian

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

It's probably worth distinguishing between the right to feel angry (about the promised "faster trains" being 15+ minutes slower, certainly reasonable) and the right to "service for me" trains (not reasonable).

I'm on the record plenty of times, along with Ian, as supporting semi-fast trains stopping at a handful of stations. We should be patient though, as there are obviously more new timetables yet to come, late March will probably be the date for the next one which will include the resumption of the Tonsley line and additional schedules for post-match trains on AFL match days at Adelaide Oval.
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

Some questions first:
1) How long did a Noarlunga Centre to Adelaide "All stops" take and
2) How long did the "limited express" stopping at Noarlunga Centre, Christie Downs , Hallett Cove Beach, Hallett Cove, Brighton, Oaklands to Adelaide service take before the shutdown?
I remember catching a 43min service to NC and it wasn't all stops or express, more of a skip stop service.
The new timetable from the 23rd has a train on a similar skip stop service departing NC at 801am and getting to ARS at 843am, 42mins seems reasonable.
Maybe people should stop basing journey times on a Noarlunga "no stops" to ARS - this service is ridiculous.
It's nice to see that Christie Downs no longer has every train stop there - this station is clearly not a high patronage/frequency station and having it as one just encouraged all the "ferals" to a free ride to Colonnades.  Very Happy
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
AdelaideMetro website is announcing resumption of weekend and evening services on Seaford and Belair lines from Saturday.
See http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/Announcements/Service-updates

Alex C
  mclaren2007 Assistant Commissioner

Location: recharging my myki
That's good. I don't want to be catching an early morning B1 to the Clipsal next weekend Twisted Evil
  1S47 Assistant Commissioner

Location: On the Down Fast
AdelaideMetro website is announcing resumption of weekend and evening services on Seaford and Belair lines from Saturday.

Alex C
62430

Good news for everyone, but especially the Belair line passengers who have had months of night/weekend closures with no eventual benefit for them.

I suspect we have not quite seen the last of the B1, N3 and N4 yet, probably just a siesta during Clipsal, Mad March and until after the state election.

There is still around 5km of mostly double track needing to be electrified on the Belair Mains between Adelaide Yard and Goodwood station. But obviously with the proposed timetable and only a handful of EMUs on the rails, finishing the 4-track section is not necessary to get the Seaford service running.

With a bit of planning maybe the remaining wires could be installed at nights and weekends by running diesel trains only (switching off the juice north of Ascot Park), turning the Belair trains onto the Seaford lines between Adelaide and Leader Street and implementing TSRs through worksites. But I bet it won’t work like this, especially as there are crossovers needing to be wired at Wayville and Mile End.

I heard that Laing O’Rourke will be vacating their HQ in Lonsdale in April, so presumably the wiring job will be 100% complete by then.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I heard that Laing O’Rourke will be vacating their HQ in Lonsdale in April, so presumably the wiring job will be 100% complete by then.
1S47

Or the remains of the contract will be taken over by a company that promises to pay slightly closer attention to timeline.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Or the remains of the contract will be taken over by a company that promises to pay even the slightest bit of attention to timeline.
"Aaron"
Edited this for accuracy Wink

I suppose it's possible that the contractor providing the routine maintenance of the system could be paid to finish off the job, assuming that maintenance will be handled by a local contractor rather than the FIFO crews from Laing O'Rourke who built the system.
  1S47 Assistant Commissioner

Location: On the Down Fast
. . . . . . assuming that maintenance will be handled by a local contractor rather than the FIFO crews from Laing O'Rourke who built the system.
justapassenger

It'll be interesting to know how DPTI will arrange for routine maintenance and emergency response for the overhead once LOR leave town.

What happens when strong winds or some incident like a mal-adjusted pantograph brings down the wires somewhere?  Which local contractors will be up to this work?  Or do we wait for the kiwis to fly back in from Auckland, bro, and in the meantime crank up some N3 and N4's sitting at the back of Lonsdale bus depot?
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Bus drivers reporting a 3 week closure of the line will occur at Easter.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Edited this for accuracy Wink
"justapassenger"
Yes, that was a slightly wrong statement wasn't it.
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
It'll be interesting to know how DPTI will arrange for routine maintenance and emergency response for the overhead once LOR leave town.

What happens when strong winds or some incident like a mal-adjusted pantograph brings down the wires somewhere? Which local contractors will be up to this work? Or do we wait for the kiwis to fly back in from Auckland, bro, and in the meantime crank up some N3 and N4's sitting at the back of Lonsdale bus depot?
1S47

If the new government (of whichever political complexion) has any sense at all, it will establish a small permanent maintenance team of very well qualified people as an integral part of Adelaide Metro. To keep them busy they could even progressively wire the Gawler and other lines as funds allow. That's how the former SAR and other government owned rail and tramway systems operated for so many years, and there was no need for shutdowns.

Perhaps Aaron could be its head if he can resist the temptation to be an overpaid legal eagle.  Very Happy
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

If the new government (of whichever political complexion) has any sense at all, it will establish a small permanent maintenance team of very well qualified people as an integral part of Adelaide Metro. To keep them busy they could even progressively wire the Gawler and other lines as funds allow. That's how the former SAR and other government owned rail and tramway systems operated for so many years, and there was no need for shutdowns.

Perhaps Aaron could be its head if he can resist the temptation to be an overpaid legal eagle. Very Happy
SAR526

You can't pick high voltage trained persons just out of the air. Training if required just to operate a switch. These people need to be available for emergencies.

Many contracts have service and maintenance agreement attached to them so one would hope that such an agreement exists with LOR, at least for the usual 12 months.

It is not just major accidents but also twigs and debris getting caught in the overhead.

Appropriate vehicles and equipment is also required, eg a hi-rail with elevating platform, switching sticks, earthing cables and PPE.

Ian
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
Bus drivers reporting a 3 week closure of the line will occur at Easter.
Milkomeda

Woohoo, a 3 week Easter, that's better than 4 days!    Smile
(yeah, I know what you mean, just joshing).

Wayne
  Steamed Beginner

Wow, just wow, the people using stations down from Goodwood towards Belair must be really thankful the existence of Noarlunga and Seaford got them their line upgrade. How many 'thank youse' have you received from Salisbury, Elizabeth, Nurlutta and Gawler for their upgrade? Any from St Clair?

The fact is there is no reason for Noarlunga to have a direct express, few other stations do, granted a skip stop is probably appropriate but expecting an express run for the few down at Noarlunga and Seaford bypassing all other stations is selfish.

I gather Ian lives in or sufficiently close to Hallett Cove, I also gather he must work some of the time, but he is only one person in the region. Statistically, Hallett Cove has a higher rate of employed population (full and part time) than the national average, it has a higher education index than average too. Contrast that with Seaford and areas around Noarlunga Centre, the former is under represented in full time employment, and slightly above national average on part time employment basis. The later is horribly over represented (twice the national rate) in unemployment, and is well down on the average for both full and part time employment. On balance, it would seem that Ian, and the eight houses closest to him probably work (and pay more tax) than a similar cluster of houses at NC or further down. Perhaps you could look up other suburbs you don't think you need your express to stop at like Clarence Park with higher employment participation than Hallett Cove.
Aaron

Aaron, launching into a class war is irrelevant. We are discussing express services during peak travel times only. You don't have to be at Uni to twig that most passengers (at any station) using peak services are commuting to work and pay full fare with the exception of school and uni students.

As far as I know, NC users outnumber any other station. If anyone has actual passenger counts, I'd love to see them. You mention Clarence Park. One could count on one hand the number of offs and ons there during peak travel times, so using your analogy, how would you explain this?

In my experience, The key stations are; NC  both HC's, Brighton and Oaklands. Without express services starting from NC, Seaford and SM may be white elephants especially when the expressway duplication is complete.

The people I know people who use HC, Brighton and Oaklands during peak times tell me that frequency of trains is not important Actual travel times and the luxury of actually getting a seat are. As for off peak, frequency at 15 minutes is reasonable.

Justapassenger summed my last post best. We all were promised faster services and this has not occurred. Trains are consistently 10 minutes or more late. I have learned that express services were never intended to return after the shutdown. So, when labor made their promises before the shut down they never said "and by the way, there will be no more express services". To sum up, they are not only liars, they also are responsible for the DPTI who are by any definition, utterly incompetent. The election will bring about the end of labor and (I hope) the beginning of a slate wiper exercise at DPTI, starting from the top.

Someone else mentioned Libs....cut cut etc. Mate, the State is stone motherless broke.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Steamed there are points on which I agree with you.

The state is broke.
There is significant incompetence within DPTI; we should advertise internationally for a new head, one who is not an apologist for the present government.
The rail may be a white elephant when the SExy is completed. The studies which proposed the rail showed that of commuting journeys from Seaford only 10% ended in the CBD, the only efficient focus of the system. The justification was based on more esoteric factors. (land rights for gay whales?)

As a user of the Tonsley service, I think I can remember that far back, I observed that Clarence Park was well used, people transferred to/from buses.

Recent anecdotal reports indicate that trains have been running on or close to time.

By your reckoning Labor could keep their promise by only running trains express from NC to ARS, and forget the rest; "well give then a service every 40 minutes that's what they used to have".

The NC to ARS expresses caused considerable disruption to the frequency of the stopping services. Not all journeys end at ARS, see my comment about the survey so Seaford/NC people need access to frequent stopping service also.
I do consider that there should be limited stopping services, firstly to save energy (less accelerating) and for prestige (improve rail's public image).

I know people like expresses but whole journey times have to be considered. How much time do people stand on stations making sure they don't miss the express? How much time is wasted at journey's end because the train gets them there before they need to; not everybody has flexitime?
I can send you a viable timetable with limited stop trains which takes 38 minutes from Seaford. I repeat that this based on AM's published times and these trains are interleaved with stoppers with and without Tonsley or Brighton all stops services.

Ian
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

@Steamed - do not put words in my mouth.

I do not support full-length expresses, only semi-fast services stopping at both Seafords, Noarlunga, both HCs, Brighton (but not if it overtakes a stopper there), Oaklands and Showgrounds. Once a full EMU service is running and if DPTI decides to start doing regular maintenance (rather than letting TSRs bloom like flowers for 20+ years between full rebuilds) these should be able to get Seaford-Adelaide done with those stops in about 35 minutes.

I don't support any services starting/terminating at Noarlunga, for the Seaford extension to be of any utility it needs to have a reliable service - i.e. a service where users can rely on every train going all the way to Seaford. As Ian points out, only 10% of journeys from Seaford go to the city so it needs a reliable service to capture as much of that 10% (still a very sizeable number) as possible.

The importance of a reliable service is also why I oppose a skip-stop timetable, a simpler timetable where services either stop or don't stop through the inner suburbs will be easier to rely on that faffing about with timetables to tell if a simple Seacliff-Edwardstown journey (my cousin's school commute) will require changing trains or not.

Ian's point about the time lost waiting for a faster train is valid, however I would suggest this is more than balanced by the attraction/"prestige" of having faster peak trains on offer for the high usage stations and an acceleration of off-peak Seaford trains once Tonsley resumes. Remember that the peak flow will not get any extra benefits on the road, the SExy already flows the right way in the peaks and duplicating it won't do anything about the Darlington-Keswick gridlock.

It would have been for this reason that "faster" was the first of the big four selling points in the rail revitalisation advertising…



I also agree that the senior leadership of the department needs to be cleaned out - regardless of the election result. Rod Hook and Luigi Rossi have done some good stuff, but there has simply been way too many instances of gross incompetence (good engineers promoted to major project management positions well beyond their skill sets) for their positions to be remotely tenable. Offering up Emma Thomas as the sacrificial lamb was a fair result with regards to the failures of the EMU procurement, but Hook and Rossi need to be held accountable for the equally disastrous delays on the big ticket infrastructure projects.
  Steamed Beginner

@Steamed - do not put words in my mouth.

I do not support full-length expresses, only semi-fast services stopping at both Seafords, Noarlunga, both HCs, Brighton (but not if it overtakes a stopper there), Oaklands and Showgrounds. Once a full EMU service is running and if DPTI decides to start doing regular maintenance (rather than letting TSRs bloom like flowers for 20+ years between full rebuilds) these should be able to get Seaford-Adelaide done with those stops in about 35 minutes.

I don't support any services starting/terminating at Noarlunga, for the Seaford extension to be of any utility it needs to have a reliable service - i.e. a service where users can rely on every train going all the way to Seaford. As Ian points out, only 10% of journeys from Seaford go to the city so it needs a reliable service to capture as much of that 10% (still a very sizeable number) as possible.

The importance of a reliable service is also why I oppose a skip-stop timetable, a simpler timetable where services either stop or don't stop through the inner suburbs will be easier to rely on that faffing about with timetables to tell if a simple Seacliff-Edwardstown journey (my cousin's school commute) will require changing trains or not.

Ian's point about the time lost waiting for a faster train is valid, however I would suggest this is more than balanced by the attraction/"prestige" of having faster peak trains on offer for the high usage stations and an acceleration of off-peak Seaford trains once Tonsley resumes. Remember that the peak flow will not get any extra benefits on the road, the SExy already flows the right way in the peaks and duplicating it won't do anything about the Darlington-Keswick gridlock.

It would have been for this reason that "faster" was the first of the big four selling points in the rail revitalisation advertising…



I also agree that the senior leadership of the department needs to be cleaned out - regardless of the election result. Rod Hook and Luigi Rossi have done some good stuff, but there has simply been way too many instances of gross incompetence (good engineers promoted to major project management positions well beyond their skill sets) for their positions to be remotely tenable. Offering up Emma Thomas as the sacrificial lamb was a fair result with regards to the failures of the EMU procurement, but Hook and Rossi need to be held accountable for the equally disastrous delays on the big ticket infrastructure projects.
justapassenger

Justa. These are your words from your post on 18 Feb that I was referring to;

"Labor promised faster train services and then instead gave them slower ones. That makes them liars by any conventional definition of the word."

I do not infer that you support full length expresses or any other option for that matter.

If express services cannot return, could some faster service trains during peak times run from Seaford to NC, both HC's, Brighton and Oaklands to ARS and return (please not the Showground WOFTAM that is only useful for maybe two weeks a year). For those of you who have timetable programming experience, would that work?

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments on the DPTI, and add that I think part of that problem, and I've seen this before having been involved with civil works projects, is that engineers are generally not good at service delivery; they are detail driven (as they should be) and need to be managed. In my view, DPTI needs a head kicking leader to deal with staff and contractors.
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

How would the "limited express" (Seaford, S.Meadows, N.C, HCB, HC, Bright, Oaklands, (A. Showground??), ARS and All stop services work?
All stops is 52 minutes  (current timetable)
"Limited Express" is 43 minutes (based on services below)
You would need something like: Departing Seaford; Limited Express: 0700 - All Stops 0705 - Limited Express 0717 All Stops 0722 Limited Express 0734.........
It's a downward slope the more time saved on this "limited express" the longer the wait at the "all stop" only stations -

          Departing Seaford                                 Arriving Adelaide

Limited Express        All Stops

0700                                                                 0743
                               0705                                 0757  
0717                                                                 0800
                               0722                                 0814  
0734                                                                 0817

As I said the "limited express" could easily take less time then 43 minutes, but it comes at the cost of "all stops" only stations.
As you can see there is a minimum 3 minute gap between services.
I don't see how anything quicker then 40 minutes for a Seaford to ARS would be possible without making 2 out 3 stations having a peak frequency of 30 minutes.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
If the new government (of whichever political complexion) has any sense at all, it will establish a small permanent maintenance team of very well qualified people as an integral part of Adelaide Metro. To keep them busy they could even progressively wire the Gawler and other lines as funds allow. That's how the former SAR and other government owned rail and tramway systems operated for so many years, and there was no need for shutdowns.

Perhaps Aaron could be its head if he can resist the temptation to be an overpaid legal eagle.  Very Happy
"SAR526"
Ian is correct, such expertise has to be gained with time, it's not just instantly acquired. I couldn't even if I wanted to, head such a team, the expertise required lies outside even my secondary interests in electronics. Ian would be a better person, he's at least 'practiced' in the right field.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
You can't pick high voltage trained persons just out of the air. Training if required just to operate a switch. These people need to be available for emergencies.
steam4ian

And of course previous experience with 11 and 33KV cables and transformers for say ESTA would have no relevance what-so-ever. Rolling Eyes

Not too hard to tech them rail safety, and some minor stuff related to track mounted working platforms and railway cable tensioning. As opposed to teaching rail workers everything from using bucket cranes and cable handling, to the entire HV electrical side of things (damaged insulators, arcing, safe working clearances, HV testing etc).

To imply you would need to train staff from scratch is total nonsense, not sure why several people believe this.

At some point we will need out own equipment and staff, but given only 1 of the 4 main lines are electrified, I don't believe that is now.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
And of course previous experience with 11 and 33KV cables and transformers for say ESTA would have no relevance what-so-ever. Rolling Eyes

Not too hard to tech them rail safety, and some minor stuff related to track mounted working platforms and railway cable tensioning. As opposed to teaching rail workers everything from using bucket cranes and cable handling, to the entire HV electrical side of things (damaged insulators, arcing, safe working clearances, HV testing etc).

To imply you would need to train staff from scratch is total nonsense, not sure why several people believe this.

At some point we will need out own equipment and staff, but given only 1 of the 4 main lines are electrified, I don't believe that is now.
"fabricator"


Spot on fabricator.
Some people seem to believe that South Australia is a backward place, with no expertise what-so-ever, maybe they have listened to the Sydney/Melbourne retortic for far too long!

They'd be somewhat suprised to realise the expertise that resides and works with in this state.

Does anyone know the Adelaide engineering connection to the current Sochi Winter Olympics?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Fabricator.

I am not saying it can't be done, I AM part of the industry. If I were not coming to the end of my career I would put my hand up.

What I am saying is, will there be crews on standby to do repairs or system restorations at 1722 on a Friday afternoon?

There are different regulations and practices to be got around.

I am sure linies from SAPN could do the work. You could even get blokes from Cowell Electric!

Ian
  yoyoman Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
With today , Sunday 23 February 2014, being the official opening of the Seaford line for revenue service it seems appropriate to open a new discussion about the Seaford Line.

Impressions of the new extension, services, station facilities and access etc.

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1895571.htm#1895571



(or a mod can delete the thread - whatever you think is appropriate Smile )
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
You can't pick high voltage trained persons just out of the air.
It is not just major accidents but also twigs and debris getting caught in the overhead.
Appropriate vehicles and equipment is also required, eg a hi-rail with elevating platform, switching sticks, earthing cables and
Ian
steam4ian

Ian,

That is precisely why I suggested that a permanent team be an integral part of the Adelaide Metro organisation.  I am not sure whether you are agreeing with me or not.

If a twig needs to be removed from those innocuous looking wires, it would be a little inconvenient to have to fly in trained staff, let alone their cherry pickers etc. from interstate or New Zealand.

South Australia has in the past had an ETSA which supplied our needs with, from memory, very few outages. Presumably its very expensive successors that have relieved the taxpayers from debt and loaded it onto the customers (the same taxpayers) with an added exorbitant profit margin which has been paid to shareholders of completely unnecessary retail companies which don't do a single thing except send out the bills and are based mainly in Hong Kong, have a few qualified employees who could be persuaded to join the railway group.

This backward little state has managed to have more wind generation than the rest of the states put together and to be testing wave, hot rocks and solar thermal storage (Port Augusta) base load generation, so we could not only run our trains and trams on a zero carbon emission basis but we have the resident expertise to install and maintain distribution wiring of any kind.

Regards,

Brian.

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