To Joggle or not? Point building question

 
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Hi,

I have just laid down my first Templot crossing template and am about to start building the track work for my layout 'Stonequarry Creek'. http://stonequarrycreek.blogspot.com.au

While learning to use Templot I was seeking information on the Templot users group http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2385&forum_id=1. This group was very helpful, particularly a fellow who signed off his posts as Matt M. Matt M seemed to know an awful lot about NSWGR point work and mentioned the use of stock rail joggles.

For anybody that doesn't know what a joggle is, it is a sharp S curve type bend in the stock rail. This allows the switch rail to sit against the stock rail protecting the leading edge of the switch rail.

As I am using three way machined switch rails to build my points and will therefore not be removing any stock rail material, I was contemplating using joggles. After a few experiments with a little tool I made, I can get some nice joggles formed in code 70 rail.

As Matt M states on the Templot forum there were three types of switched. Standard, Heavy Duty and Housed. As the crossing I am building is on the main line, maybe a heavy duty point is required which utilises a joggle. I feel using joggles may make building the points easier also.

I was hoping somebody on here, possibly even Matt M would have some more information/photos of NSWGR points built with joggles. If Matt M is correct in saying that points were built like this in NSW, did it occur during the 1950s? I realise the other way of building, which I have already tried is to add a set to the stock rail. What I did notice here though is that the gauge can narrow slightly near the switch rail lead area. I am sure refining the building process would fix this though.

I thought I had better ask the question before setting off  full steam ahead. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Linton

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  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
I'm still trying to fathom what a "joggle" is???!!! I did a google search......waste of time as far as anything railway-related is concerned. I have spent many years around railway lines (often in places I wasn't supposed to be!!!), but I can't recall any "S" shaped part/s in the stock rail of a turnout/point......maybe it's a relatively recent innovation; I haven't been hanging around railway lines for over 10 years.

Roachie
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

Roachie,

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=50706


If you look at the photo in this thread you will see the joggle in the rails. The GWR was one of the best known users of joggle in crossings. As a user of "straight cut" switch rails which were considered to be stronger the joggle was used to set the witch rail into the running rail. this avoided any possibilty of the switch rail being damaged by a wheel impacting on it.

Linton, honestly not sure when the NSWGR started using or stopped using Joggles - will have to look at some drawings!

Regards,

Craig W
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
are we talking about where the point blade meets the stockrail ?  ie is there a indentation for the blade to fit in, or is it relying on the blade's point and a snug fit  ?

Regards,
David Head
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

are we talking about where the point blade meets the stockrail ? ie is there a indentation for the blade to fit in, or is it relying on the blade's point and a snug fit ?

Regards,
David Head
dthead

David,

Now that I have actually put a link in to my reply, look at the photos in the thread and the joggle will become fairly clear.

Regards,

Craig W
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Thanks Craig....now I see what was meant.

I don't feel as though there would be much to be gained by doing this in HO scale.

Roachie
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
David,

Now that I have actually put a link in to my reply, look at the photos in the thread and the joggle will become fairly clear.

Regards,

Craig W
CraigW

Well more or less what I thought. But here my experiance ends in any authoritive way. Have done many points myself, usually have filed a notch into the rail for the blade to go into and not made this joggle. I have also a fastrack jig to file it as well, which mainly files the base of the rail away to allow the blade to come up tight.

Regards,
David Head
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Roachie,

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=50706


If you look at the photo in this thread you will see the joggle in the rails. The GWR was one of the best known users of joggle in crossings. As a user of "straight cut" switch rails which were considered to be stronger the joggle was used to set the witch rail into the running rail. this avoided any possibilty of the switch rail being damaged by a wheel impacting on it.

Linton, honestly not sure when the NSWGR started using or stopped using Joggles - will have to look at some drawings!

Regards,

Craig W
"CraigW"



Hi Craig,

Thanks for the reply. Yep GWR used joggles and on both stock rails. Great forum you found there! I find it funny that my title is almost the same ha ha. Martin from Templot seems to know just about everything regarding English track work. I threw quite a few points while on the railways. Wish I could remember what they looked like! I will have to head up to Mossie and have a look.

From this thread I have been given a lot of information. It seems the NSWGR used a single joggle on there standard and heavy duty points. The housed switch type points have a joggle on each stock rail. But only sometimes. Don't you love the railways!

A friend is doing a lot of digging for me. Should have more information in the next couple of days.

Thanks,

Linton
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Thanks Craig....now I see what was meant.

I don't feel as though there would be much to be gained by doing this in HO scale.

Roachie
"Roachie"


Hi Bill,

There is actually a lot to gain in using a joggle for HO scale. As my switch rails are milled to replicate the prototype, my stock rails do not need to be filed. The switch rails sit up on the stock rail base which in real life would support the switch rail while under load. I have a picture of a point that I made in an earlier post on my blog. This shows the switch and stock rails. That point has no joggle.

I have built a little tool so I can bend a joggle into my rail. With the joggle there is no switch rail edge (well there is but it's protected and inline with the stock rail). It comes out very neatly. Switch rails against the diverting stock rail are planed and the stock rail has a 'set' bent into it. This also allows the switch rail to sit nicely against the stock rail and helps smooth out the switch rail leading edge.

The English guys build 16.5 mm track with joggles. So far I have found them to be quite easy to create.

For me, I want a little more information. I most certainly know they were used in NSW, just when and in what location I.e. Main line only? That is my interest.

I have learnt a lot about track using templot and asking people questions. There is an awful lot to the geometry of track work, I have been amazed!

Linton
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Well more or less what I thought. But here my experiance ends in any authoritive way. Have done many points myself, usually have filed a notch into the rail for the blade to go into and not made this joggle. I have also a fastrack jig to file it as well, which mainly files the base of the rail away to allow the blade to come up tight.

Regards,
David Head
"dthead"



Hi David,

Yes with the stock rail filed away there is probably no need for a joggle. Maybe not even a 'set'. Not sure? I am not filing my stock rails so have to use a method to keep the track gauge in check and prevent the leading edge of the switch rail from causing problems. Filing the top of the switch rail is prototypical and I will do that.

It's funny but the radius of the curve between the flange and tread of a wheel must be very important. I was looking at it today closely and with a nice thin top section of switch rail the radius in the wheel actually seems to leave room so as the wheel will not clip the leading edge of the switch rail. Sorry, this is hard to explain without a drawing.

Regards,

Linton
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Hi David,

Yes with the stock rail filed away there is probably no need for a joggle. Maybe not even a 'set'. Not sure? I am not filing my stock rails so have to use a method to keep the track gauge in check and prevent the leading edge of the switch rail from causing problems. Filing the top of the switch rail is prototypical and I will do that.

It's funny but the radius of the curve between the flange and tread of a wheel must be very important. I was looking at it today closely and with a nice thin top section of switch rail the radius in the wheel actually seems to leave room so as the wheel will not clip the leading edge of the switch rail. Sorry, this is hard to explain without a drawing.

Regards,

Linton
linton78

Linton,

The vast majority of NSWGR turnouts I have ever seen do not have a Joggle, therefore follow the NSWGR practice of your era.  I have found point blades need to have a thickness (very close to the sharp end) of less than 0.2mm in practice, with a short extra taper to a sharp point. Do this and you will have no problem with poorly shaped flanges.

Terry Flynn.

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