Short Platform Accident

 
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
A blind athlete had an accident today or yesterday, when he tried to get off a long interurban train at Leura, which has a short platform.

He stepped out into the void and fell to the ground.

His guide dog refused to move.

The fellow reports that no PA announcements drew attention to the fact that Leura had a short platform. Black mark for the guard.

More modern trains such as T, G, and OCSAR sets distinguish stations with short platform with the abbreviation "SP4", etc. Obviously these are not much use to blind people, though not of course to his dog.

Fortunately, the Guard in presumably the rearmost carriage saw the accident and was able to help. The passenger was not really harmed.


IIRC, long trains at short platforms generally stop with the the front cars off the platform, and passengers are advised to travel in the rear cars. However, if the driver forgets how many car are in the train, he may stop with rearmost cars off the platforms.  If such a mistake is made, the guard should ask the driver to move the train forward.

Lengthening platforms is expensive, particularly if there are masts, piers, narrowing track centres, etc. in the way. Leura is an island platform, and possibly a station with lower patronage.

Short Platforms are well documented on pamphlets available at stations. What about on 131500.com.au.

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  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Looking more at the 131500 website, train timetables display the wheelchair symbol at stations with easy access, but not the SPx symbols at stations with short platforms.

Saves Ink?  Saves electrons?
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Leura is not listed as a short platform in the Blue Mountains timetable.
Many other stations on the Mountains are listed as “SP6” even though they can fit all doors (at a squeeze), or all bar one door of an 8 car V-set.
NSWRcars



The Intercity Map shows no short platforms at all on the N, W, S and Illawarra, even though there are definely some on the N, S and Illa. IIRC Linden may be short. Zig Zag is.

Scrolling down from this map is a tabulation of stations, showing SPs.

See: http://www.transportnsw.info/resources/documents/intercity-trains-network-map.pdf
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
Interesting topic...
The 8 car marker for the driver at Leura is about 5 metres past the platform (on both up and down platform) which means the front doors of the first car would have to be over the end of the platform, yet is is not listed as a short platform.

I have been catching mountains trains for some years and with the exception of Linden and Bell and Zig Zag, I have never heard an announcement for any of the of the other short platforms to stay the front doors the front car wont fit. I use to get off at Hazelbrook and it seem like luck that I have never seen anyone get out on the front doors of the first car.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Did the Leura accident at the beginning of this thread happen at night? Did the guard in the rear car notice that the train was hanging out of the platform?

Recently a whole lot of suburban platforms were lengthened by about 2m, to allow for A-set guards using the door in the rear car. Should this be done at shortish platforms like Leura?

8 car V-sets are say 10m longer than 8-car G and OSCAR sets. How long will V-sets be around for?
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
Did the Leura accident at the beginning of this thread happen at night? Did the guard in the rear car notice that the train was hanging out of the platform?

8 car V-sets are say 10m longer than 8-car G and OSCAR sets. How long will V-sets be around for?
awsgc24

8 car V Sets if stopped correctly at Leura will always have the front door past the platform, but all other doors will be on platform. I doubt they will spend money to make Leura longer

V Sets are here for a while. The "Bush Plum" upgrade is apparently designed so they last until least 2023 according to the Government's media release.
  Matruck Junior Train Controller

Location: Lilliput,Victoria
http://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/why-blind-paralympian-bart-bunting-doesn-t-trust-sydney-s-trains

Perhaps we could send the driver's/guard's back for sum re-training on how to work out how many carriage's they have in their train and there for enabling them to stop in the correct place on the platform so passenger's ( These are the people who actually ride in the back ) can alight onto a platform.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Perhaps we could send the driver's/guard's back for sum re-training on how to work out how many carriage's they have in their train and there for enabling them to stop in the correct place on the platform so passenger's ( These are the people who actually ride in the back ) can alight onto a platform.
Matruck

UUhhh yeah, that'll work... Perhaps we should also send some RP members back for retraining on how to work out that a X-metre long train doesn't fit into an X-5 metre long station...

The 8 car marker for the driver at Leura is about 5 metres past the platform (on both up and down platform) which means the front doors of the first car would have to be over the end of the platform, yet is is not listed as a short platform.


Perhaps we should also send blind paralympians back for "sum retraining" on how to understand their guide dogs so they can understand that when their guide dog doesn't move, it isn't safe for them either.
  Kamz Assistant Commissioner

I'm surprised these incidents don't happen more often.

There is no black mark against the Guard. Leura isn't listed as a short platform, which obviously is a mistake.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
A blind athlete had an accident today or yesterday, when he tried to get off a long interurban train at Leura, which has a short platform.

He stepped out into the void and fell to the ground.

His guide dog refused to move.

The fellow reports that no PA announcements drew attention to the fact that Leura had a short platform. Black mark for the guard.

More modern trains such as T, G, and OCSAR sets distinguish stations with short platform with the abbreviation "SP4", etc. Obviously these are not much use to blind people, though not of course to his dog.

Fortunately, the Guard in presumably the rearmost carriage saw the accident and was able to help. The passenger was not really harmed.


IIRC, long trains at short platforms generally stop with the the front cars off the platform, and passengers are advised to travel in the rear cars. However, if the driver forgets how many car are in the train, he may stop with rearmost cars off the platforms. If such a mistake is made, the guard should ask the driver to move the train forward.

Lengthening platforms is expensive, particularly if there are masts, piers, narrowing track centres, etc. in the way. Leura is an island platform, and possibly a station with lower patronage.

Short Platforms are well documented on pamphlets available at stations. What about on 131500.com.au.
awsgc24

The govt and donations provided him with a highly trained dog to act as a pair of eyes and it did the job for which he failed to follow. If his own dog, which I thought these people placed huge levels of trust in says I ain't going what good would have an annoucement been?

Also who said there was no annoucement? Do we believe the man who just fell out despite the actions of his dog?

If the driver placed the train at incorrect position, then ok he got it wrong, not first time. But who opened the doors without checking?

There is more to this than just a shorter platform.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney

If the driver placed the train at incorrect position, then ok he got it wrong, not first time. But who opened the doors without checking?

There is more to this than just a shorter platform.
RTT_Rules

It is not clear if the blind fellow was in the first car or the last car.

It is possible that the driver of a 6 or 8 car train stopped at the 4-car marker, leaving the rear few cars hanging out of the platform.

An easy mistake for the driver; the guard should have noticed the problem.

The QR airport line had an accident where an 6-car (?) train stopped at the 3-car marker, forgetting the size of his train, and the guard opened the door by mistake. The rear 3 cars hang out of the platform on a viaduct, with rather a long fall to the ground. All trains including 3-car ones now stop at the 6-car marker.

Given that newer trains have, IIRC, some kind of "internet" controlling the cars, a suitable TrainLengthIndicator on the driver's control panel ought not to be an impossible retrofit.

Otherwise some kind of manual Driver Reminder Device used on UK trains that helps prevent SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger) should a guard falsely give a bell signal for "right away". The simplest DRD would be a piece of post-it note with the train length written upon it.

There is another accident where a passenger on a late night train disappeared without trace. It was suggested that the train may have stopped on a viaduct with no handrails (think of the Meadowbank Bridge (Down Main)) ; the doors opened and the half asleep passenger stepped out into a void.

To prevent such an accident at Meadowbank, a third track for freight trains only could be built, connecting the third track at Rhodes with the third track at West Ryde.Laughing
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
It is not clear if the blind fellow was in the first car or the last car.

It is possible that the driver of a 6 or 8 car train stopped at the 4-car marker, leaving the rear few cars hanging out of the platform.

An easy mistake for the driver; the guard should have noticed the problem.
awsgc24

It was the lead car as reported in the Telegraph, and I gather going by the information, the first doors on any 8 car set will. always be past the end of the platform.

"An easy mistake" ?. Is the State employing incompetent drivers that forget how long their train is? They don't have 6 car sets in the Mountains any more so either it is 4 or 8... not rocket science.

As the majority of Blue Mountains platforms appear not to actually fit a full 8 cars on, maybe NSW Trains just not open the lead doors, or just a simple announcement on their PA system.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

It was the lead car as reported in the Telegraph, and I gather going by the information, the first doors on any 8 car set will. always be past the end of the platform.

"An easy mistake" ?. Is the State employing incompetent drivers that forget how long their train is? They don't have 6 car sets in the Mountains any more so either it is 4 or 8... not rocket science.

As the majority of Blue Mountains platforms appear not to actually fit a full 8 cars on, maybe NSW Trains just not open the lead doors, or just a simple announcement on their PA system.
Jim K

and thus speaks the voice of ignorance. on a V set the doors do not öpen"they are unlocked and the passenger opens them himself, there is no option to selectively release doors
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

and thus speaks the voice of ignorance. on a V set the doors do not öpen"they are unlocked and the passenger opens them himself, there is no option to selectively release doors
theanimal

I would ask the moderators to lock this thread as the majority of posters do not know what they are talking about and are just spreading dis-information. I actually know what happened but I am not prepared to discuss the incident other than to say that none of the crew (3 at the time) were at fault. If some persist in blaming crew that might find that they will be required to prove their accusations in a more official forum than RP. Theanimal is correct in what he is saying about how the doors operate on V sets.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I have no problem with the thread continuing, I just wonder why people who know nothing feel a need to add comments

that do little but highlight their ignorance?

its not just here, but on a 4WD forum I am a member of,

Hint jim k, if you know nothing, say nothing, learning is a listening skill.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney

As the majority of Blue Mountains platforms appear not to actually fit a full 8 cars on, maybe NSW Trains just not open the lead doors, or just a simple announcement on their PA system.
Jim K


NSW Trains might also mark timetables, pamplets, destination indicators on platform and in trains with a [SP7] note, even though this cost an unmeasurable amount of ink and electrons.

Pedantically, the note should be [SP7.5] since only one door of the front car is affected.

Why this note was overlooked when the [SP6], [SP4], etc. note were introduced  in the first place is hard to say?
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
It was the lead car as reported in the Telegraph, and I gather going by the information, the first doors on any 8 car set will. always be past the end of the platform.

"An easy mistake" ?. Is the State employing incompetent drivers that forget how long their train is? They don't have 6 car sets in the Mountains any more so either it is 4 or 8... not rocket science.

As the majority of Blue Mountains platforms appear not to actually fit a full 8 cars on, maybe NSW Trains just not open the lead doors, or just a simple announcement on their PA system.
Jim K

This is a very poor response and shows how little you understand the drivers role.

The driver will stop at the 8 car marker, which is, as you have so astutely observed, past the end of the platform. If a driver didn't know how long his train was, he would not stop at that marker, and either more doors would be off the platform, or the rearmost doors would be off the platform.

It is very big of you to take to an internet forum and accuse the driver (and co-workers who were not even involved) of being incompetent and performing their duties poorly. Perhaps thinking before making ill-informed comments would be better, or phrasing your opinion (which you have every right to) in a less offensive way. I know a number of NSW TrainLink drivers, and they are professionals who go to work every day to operate their trains in the safest way possible.

Your beef (and everyone elses) is clearly with the GUARD of the train, and the people in charge of passenger information, as clearly Leura needs to be marked as "SP7".
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
I would ask the moderators to lock this thread as the majority of posters do not know what they are talking about and are just spreading dis-information. I actually know what happened but I am not prepared to discuss the incident other than to say that none of the crew (3 at the time) were at fault. If some persist in blaming crew that might find that they will be required to prove their accusations in a more official forum than RP. Theanimal is correct in what he is saying about how the doors operate on V sets.
"nswtrains"
And that is the very reason this thread is not going to be locked. At least by me.

Unfortunately, RP has lost a great many posters who actually knew what they were talking about. Sure, they could be crass, abrasive and downright rude sometimes, but they worked in the industry and knew what they were on about.

So...if someone here wants to spread a load of steaming BS and malign the operating crew, Good luck. But you had better be willing to stand by your accusations, because, as several Keyboard Warriors have found to their detriment - including one from a Federal Government body - you can be tracked down, and your comments can be used against you.

And I would be the first person to person to provide the IP address if asked.
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
It is possible that the driver of a 6 or 8 car train stopped at the 4-car marker, leaving the rear few cars hanging out of the platform.

An easy mistake for the driver; the guard should have noticed the problem.
awsgc24


To clarify, I did not make any criticism of drivers or crew, I was commenting on the post above by awsgc24 who made the comment that it is "An easy mistake for the driver"

If that is true (that it is an 'easy mistake') that is very concerning.

I actually question that it is an "easy mistake" and that since in my 45 years of rail travel have never experienced a train overshooting a platform, which means we do employ very compentant drivers.

My actually remark is for awsgc24 why he/she thinks it is an 'easy mistake'.... a bit like saying "oh well"....
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
As I mentioned earlier, I can not recall the Guard announcing that any of the SP6 stations are short over the PA system.You cant lock the front door, too much of a safety issue, and there are 8+ car platforms on the line.

The only answer is that the Guard has to make an announcement at any station that is even one door does not clear, even 'slightly' short platforms such as Leura.
  Matruck Junior Train Controller

Location: Lilliput,Victoria
And that is the very reason this thread is not going to be locked. At least by me.

Unfortunately, RP has lost a great many posters who actually knew what they were talking about. Sure, they could be crass, abrasive and downright rude sometimes, but they worked in the industry and knew what they were on about.

So...if someone here wants to spread a load of steaming BS and malign the operating crew, Good luck. But you had better be willing to stand by your accusations, because, as several Keyboard Warriors have found to their detriment - including one from a Federal Government body - you can be tracked down, and your comments can be used against you.

And I would be the first person to person to provide the IP address if asked.
KRviator

So from all of this you are saying it is the Passenger's fault entirely ?.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
To clarify, I did not make any criticism of drivers or crew, I was commenting on the post above by awsgc24 who made the comment that it is "An easy mistake for the driver"
Jim K


I did write earlier in this thread about a somewhat similar problem in the UK where drivers would sometimes start off in response to a bell signal AGAINST a red signal. To cut a very long story short, they introduced a simple manual "Driver Reminder Device" to reduce the risk to whole trains Passing Signals At Danger aka "SPAD"s. Has Jim K heard of DRDs? And there is also the Incident if not Accident, also mentioned earlier in this thread, where a 6 car QR train stopped in the 3-car position and some doors opened on a viaduct with a very unhealthy drop to the ground. Has Jim K ever heard of this as well?

These are mistakes that drivers can and do occasionally make, and are excusable in some sense because people in general do make mistakes from time to time.

I have been occasionally been on trains that have overshot or undershot a platform by one or two doorways, so that I had to climb down to the ground to get off at my station. Some trains sometimes also slow down or even stop at stations which they are supposed to skip.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

I actually know what happened but I am not prepared to discuss the incident other than to say that none of the crew (3 at the time) were at fault.
nswtrains

It sounds like you may have seen what happened, but as others have stated, the doors on V-Sets are opened by the passengers.

And their is a good reason why V-Sets where built with doors that passengers have to open themselves.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
It sounds like you may have seen what happened, but as others have stated, the doors on V-Sets are opened by the passengers.

And their is a good reason why V-Sets where built with doors that passengers have to open themselves.
Newcastle Express

Doors unlocked by guard and opened by pax (if any) also save the drain on the airconditioning system. This is also a reason for the Platform Screen Doors pioneered in Singapore. There are also safety advantages.
  Kamz Assistant Commissioner

NSW Trains might also mark timetables, pamplets, destination indicators on platform and in trains with a [SP7] note, even though this cost an unmeasurable amount of ink and electrons.

Pedantically, the note should be [SP7.5] since only one door of the front car is affected.

Why this note was overlooked when the [SP6], [SP4], etc. note were introduced in the first place is hard to say?
awsgc24

Yes, it appears to be a mistake, which they still haven't fixed.

The short platform information was standardised a few years back. All short platforms fit in one of these categories. SPM, SP1r, SP2 (Southern Highlands only), SP4 and SP6. They got rid of all the SP3, SP5 and SP7

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