Malaysia Airlines Plane With 295 Aboard Crashes in Ukraine

 

News article: Malaysia Airlines Plane With 295 Aboard Crashes in Ukraine

MOSCOW — A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 with 295 people aboard was apparently shot down by an antiaircraft missile before it crashed and burned on Thursday in an eastern Ukraine wheat field near the Russian border.

  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The people in command of the rebel forces are all ex-Russian security personal. If you want to find cold hearted mad psychopaths then look no further. Yeltsin is one himself and they are all in it to line their own pockets at the expense of the Russian people. They are absolutely ruthless, and will brook no opposition to their crazed view of their self importance. And none of them are Ukrainian. It is sad to see Stalin being reborn in Russia because the country had so much potential with the communists thrown out of power.

And frankly, I am absolutely appalled that Abbott and Bishop are sending unarmed AFP personnel into a battle zone for their own political benefit. They are now talking up arming the AFP and really placing them in harms way. I hope the AFP personnel refuse to go down this path and their union intervenes to stop this madness. Talk about amateurs trying to strut the world stage. It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

If any of my relatives were on the flight I would rather the animals that did this were bought to justice rather than risk further lives in a futile attempt to bring back the dead.

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The Commonwealth of Independent Sates Is riddled with corruption and crime silicates controlling most economic actives, ever since the collapse of the USSR.

Nothing / none would be able to clean this up, none In Moscou, Washington District of Columbia, New York, London, Genève, Den Haag, etc

Abbott makes It out that Eastern Ukraine Is a happy law abiding State, that they can just walk In and take over (like on those many crime Investigation TV shows)
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
You do realise the local people in eastern Ukraine speak Russian, and for the large part are ethnically Russian.

They have legitimate concerns regarding their treatment by Kiev, and wish to form their own state.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
You do realise the local people in eastern Ukraine speak Russian, and for the large part are ethnically Russian.

They have legitimate concerns regarding their treatment by Kiev, and wish to form their own state.
ZH836301

Western Australians think the Eastern States stink and want to form their own country, so what?

That doesn't mean people can just decide to break up a country into lumps that fit their own ideals.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Case in point.
Their concerns are a lot different to such pettiness.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Case in point.
Their concerns are a lot different to such pettiness.
ZH836301

Do not underestimate the division language will cause to a countries stability. The divisions that are generated by language (note Ukrainian and Russian are partially interchangeable) are probably the strongest and prime reason for countries to breakup and even states in India to break up and includes the ongoing separatists movements in Quebec, Southern Spain, former C-Solvaika, Georgia etc.


During the USSR era, Russia called the shots and didn't internally recognize the eastern block as independent countries and helped entrench this policy with Russiaification. ie moving russian families into Ukraine and other eastern block countries, making Russian and Russian History and culture compulsory and making the centre of the universe Moscow by having statues representing mother Russian facing Moscow (a trick from islam I'm sure).


Since the USSR breakup, when I was in Ukraine and other eastern block countries most have completely reversed many of the Russiaification programs by dropping Russian and Russian history from schools and even abandoning Cyrillic as the official written form of their local (but still Slovak based) language and switched to Latin alphabet. Ukrainian's all had to adopt Ukrainian names regardless of their names at birth. For example, Imagine being told your name is no longer Anna, but Hanna officially and legally and no chance to go back. This happened to a friend of mine. Putin and many hard liners find the last 20 years a crime against Russia's strength as a super power and trying to form a modern USSR. Many of the few willingly interested countries are financial basket cases. Only Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan really have much to offer. A friend working in (Islamic) Tajikistan (or might be Turkmenistan) said the country is oil rich, but the govt doesn't want the people to be educated or work at a skilled level for fear of separatists movements evolving.

Australian's associate themselves by where they live as a country and basically anyone born here has a mostly common accent. Most countries in the world people associate themselves by where they (family) are from culturally/religiously and what they speak.

West Australia's few references to separation is purely based on some peoples view on getting their share of the kitty. If they attempted serious separation it would only take NSW and Vic sending invoices for the first 120yrs of federation to bring them into line.
  MILW Junior Train Controller

Location: Earth
Western Australians think the Eastern States stink and want to form their own country, so what?

That doesn't mean people can just decide to break up a country into lumps that fit their own ideals.
TheBlacksmith


Actually, it kind of does, depending how you look at it.

What legitimises the power of the State over a given territory or population? What gives a State the right to exist?

If the people don't want it, they might take steps to change it. It's a matter of which side in the ensuing conflict is more powerful or, very often, which side has a stronger backing from an imperial power to help achieve an outcome. Naturally, separatist activity is rarely supported by everyone in the area (even the American revolution only had about one third active support), and it's usually considered illegal by the exisiting State authorities whose position is being challenged, and perhaps also under international law, but those factors have never stopped separatist movements and never will...

There are two main groups in this conflict, each backed by an imperial power, at least at a diplomatic level if not materially. Who will win?


Since the USSR breakup, when I was in Ukraine and other eastern block countries most have completely reversed many of the Russiaification programs by dropping Russian and Russian history from schools and even abandoning Cyrillic as the official written form of their local (but still Slovak based) language and switched to Latin alphabet. Ukrainian's all had to adopt Ukrainian names regardless of their names at birth. For example, Imagine being told your name is no longer Anna, but Hanna officially and legally and no chance to go back. This happened to a friend of mine.


Many governments have tried to undo what they saw as historical demographic distortions and create new ones (population exchanges, forced resettlement, cultural modification etc) but that doesn't mean they can enforce their policies forever if many people don't want it, nor that they have a right to do so in the face of public opposition. That's basically up to the people to decide, but if some of them don't believe the ballot box is their friend, they may choose other options.

I'm sure not all Russians were thrilled about moving (or being moved) to the Ukraine in the first place (just as the Greeks, Tartars etc who had been there for up to 2000 years would not have been happy about being moved out by Stalin), but the ethnic Russians have been there for a long time and maintained their cultural identity throughout. Tsarist Russia also sent Russian Jews to Ukraine in the 19th century to make them more Russian and less Jewish, and it worked, although most struggled as farmers. It's hard to imagine a new policy of cultural modification being well received by people in that situation.


And no more sanctions on Russia from Australia, eh? Our trade with them is probably only a couple of billion, but given all the strong words from our dear leaders...
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I love how the media has failed to hammer Kiev for calling a ceasefire then simply continuing blasting around the crash site.

Yet they jumped at the chance to portray Putin as the anti-Christ based on near non-existent evidence.
  MILW Junior Train Controller

Location: Earth
I love how the media has failed to hammer Kiev for calling a ceasefire then simply continuing blasting around the crash site.

Yet they jumped at the chance to portray Putin as the anti-Christ based on near non-existent evidence.
ZH836301


The new puppet government in Kiev can do no wrong, just #blameputin for everything. If things aren't going your way, #blameputin.


There are now reports that the US is planning to train the Ukrainian national reserve forces, and the EU is lifting a ban on the sale of arms to Kiev. Oh well, I guess Moscow had better ramp up its support for the rebels, too.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian forces are busy shelling Lugansk and Donetsk, and hundreds of ethnic Russians are fleeing to their historical fatherland.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
And no more sanctions on Russia from Australia, eh? Our trade with them is probably only a couple of billion, but given all the strong words from our dear leaders...
MILW

Andrew Bolt wrote a stirring article in the Herald-Sun last week saying how this was Abbott's 9/11 moment and that he had really proven himself worthy of the status of Prime Minister based on his harsh words to Vladimir Putin.  I guess it served as a distraction from his poisonous unpopularity at home for a few moments.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
I wonder if Abbott would have been so puffed of chest and ready to throw sanctions around if it had been China backing Chinese rebels in a neighbouring country? I bet you he would have turned back into a snivelling, simpering worm then, when faced with the economic stranglehold China has over Australia!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Going in swinging against an enemy based on minimal evidence...

Yep, does sound like Abbott's 9/11 moment.  Just replace Iraq with Russia and WMDs with Buk.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
...and hundreds of ethnic Russians are fleeing to their historical fatherland.
MILW

and this is exactly what Kiev wants, get the Pro-Russian support base out of the country and back to where many came from over the USSR era.

Ukraine has suffered massive depopulation in the last 20 years, a few more million won't hurt.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
and this is exactly what Kiev wants, get the Pro-Russian support base out of the country and back to where many came from over the USSR era.

Ukraine has suffered massive depopulation in the last 20 years, a few more million won't hurt.
RTT_Rules

And what short memories they all have, Russia has never given a sh1t about the needs and wants of ethnic minorities in its entire history, so why would they want to cuddle up to Russia again.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And what short memories they all have, Russia has never given a sh1t about the needs and wants of ethnic minorities in its entire history, so why would they want to cuddle up to Russia again.
TheBlacksmith

My trip to Ukraine last year I saw what appeared to be alot of males still stuck or longing for the old days of mother USSR. Nanny state to provide the basics including a job and the sense of being part of a major global empire (albeit slowly dying one). The first 5-10yrs in most of these former soviet blocs were very hard for many with declining standards of living, job losses, privatisation, major economic upheaval and in some cases chronic inflation and lots of uncertainty. The politicians were as experienced in running a free market economy as the people were living in one.  

These days now they have to work to eat, get decent health, education. Many govt systems have struggled and now run down and those who are smarter/work harder get ahead alot more and many don't' understand why. Women especially have taken to Capitalism. The guys still walk around in army fatigues, the women in the latest summer fashion, working longer hours to get ahead and study hard to educated.  Women historically married young are now alot more picky. The Ukrainian birth rate has plunged to some of lowest in world as the women chose a life away from a drunken non achieving husband. All within one generation.

With over 10% of the population gone within 15 years and many more move regional moved to the cities, some of the country areas looked abandoned. 16 people die for every 11 people born and middle aged and above males are falling like flys due to alcohol and smoking.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And what short memories they all have, Russia has never given a sh1t about the needs and wants of ethnic minorities in its entire history, so why would they want to cuddle up to Russia again.
TheBlacksmith

The BBC interviewed a number of Crimean's of Russian decent opposing the annexing of Crimea and they pretty much said the same thing.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Andrew Bolt wrote a stirring article in the Herald-Sun last week saying how this was Abbott's 9/11 moment and that he had really proven himself worthy of the status of Prime Minister based on his harsh words to Vladimir Putin. I guess it served as a distraction from his poisonous unpopularity at home for a few moments.
don_dunstan


Trust him for seeing the political up side from this, after all the budget 'emergency' ain't doing it Razz

Abbott and his acolytes have a hell of a lot in common with Putin. Posturing and tough talk always goes down well with their conservative base Rolling Eyes
  MILW Junior Train Controller

Location: Earth
and this is exactly what Kiev wants, get the Pro-Russian support base out of the country and back to where many came from over the USSR era.
RTT_Rules


That sounds about right, except for the fact that there were many Russians in the Ukraine well before the USSR. Those dastardly creatures have been there since about the 16th century, well before Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto or Stalin decided to relocate the Crimean Greeks, Tatars etc. to the likes of the Kazakh and Uzbek SSR, although some population exchanges also occurred in the Imperial Russian era. It isn't just a case of recent forced resettlement and deportations by Stalin. Whatever the case, they're there, and I'd like to see the humanitarian side of any policies that a nationalist government might direct against them.


The BBC interviewed a number of Crimean's of Russian decent opposing the annexing of Crimea and they pretty much said the same thing.

Perfectly balanced reporting from the BBC, as always, I'm sure. I don't doubt there are plenty of people who share that view, but did they happen to counter it with any differing opinions from other locals, which also seem to be pretty common? Luckily we can go digging for a broader picture ourselves.

I love old "Auntie", but like her sister broadcaster in Australia, I don't think she can be trusted to deliver agenda free global news more than any other media mouthpiece. In fact, I'd say the BBC is the leading propaganda machine of the political and economic interests of the English speaking world due to its wide audience, approaching an equivalent of Pravda, which has also published a few articles on MH17.
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper

West Australia's few references to separation is purely based on some peoples view on getting their share of the kitty. If they attempted serious separation it would only take NSW and Vic sending invoices for the first 120yrs of federation to bring them into line.
"RTT_Rules"


Western Australia had a successful referendum to break off from Australia in 1933 but the British Parliament didn't comply because the request did not come from the Commonweath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Australian_secession_referendum,_1933
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Western Australia had a successful referendum to break off from Australia in 1933 but the British Parliament didn't comply because the request did not come from the Commonweath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Australian_secession_referendum,_1933
GeoffreyHansen

Western Australia, won't admit It, but they need the Eastern States of Australia for essential supplies, fresh food like the ever Increasing supply of Victorian milk.

SCT does very well working between the Eastern States and WA.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Perfectly balanced reporting from the BBC, as always, I'm sure. I don't doubt there are plenty of people who share that view, but did they happen to counter it with any differing opinions from other locals, which also seem to be pretty common? Luckily we can go digging for a broader picture ourselves.

I love old "Auntie", but like her sister broadcaster in Australia, I don't think she can be trusted to deliver agenda free global news more than any other media mouthpiece. In fact, I'd say the BBC is the leading propaganda machine of the political and economic interests of the English speaking world due to its wide audience, approaching an equivalent of Pravda, which has also published a few articles on MH17.
MILW

More opinion? It has about the same validity as my opinion that you are talking out of your hat. Try adding some actual fact in it if you want it believed.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Trust him for seeing the political up side from this, after all the budget 'emergency' ain't doing it Razz

Abbott and his acolytes have a hell of a lot in common with Putin. Posturing and tough talk always goes down well with their conservative base Rolling Eyes
Groundrelay

I really don't understand what a huge team of AFP investigators were supposed to find a fortnight after the site had been picked clean by local militias.  Apparently the incriminating evidence around the actual rocket debris had long since been removed.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I really don't understand what a huge team of AFP investigators were supposed to find a fortnight after the site had been picked clean by local militias. Apparently the incriminating evidence around the actual rocket debris had long since been removed.
don_dunstan

As I understand it, around 80 bodies have not been accounted for, that would be more important to clear up than the evidence of the missile attack. I believe they have sniffer dogs on the job to locate the bodies or parts thereof.

I don't think the issue of what brought down the plane is in doubt, everyone seems to believe it was a missile and there is little choice in who fired it given the locale. In any event, local militias are not necessarily expert in examination of debris, there may be plenty left behind.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
As I understand it, around 80 bodies have not been accounted for, that would be more important to clear up than the evidence of the missile attack. I believe they have sniffer dogs on the job to locate the bodies or parts thereof.

I don't think the issue of what brought down the plane is in doubt, everyone seems to believe it was a missile and there is little choice in who fired it given the locale. In any event, local militias are not necessarily expert in examination of debris, there may be plenty left behind.
TheBlacksmith

Some photos they showed on TV certainly looks like shrapnel holes in the side of the fuselage panel with the indications the shrapnel came from the outside (ie like a big bullet hole into a plate of metal). I think its fairly clear the site was searched for signs of the missile and probably any bits identifiable to the the rebels removed by same. The bodies are probably the biggest source of missile pieces.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
That sounds about right, except for the fact that there were many Russians in the Ukraine well before the USSR. Those dastardly creatures have been there since about the 16th century, well before Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto or Stalin decided to relocate the Crimean Greeks, Tatars etc. to the likes of the Kazakh and Uzbek SSR, although some population exchanges also occurred in the Imperial Russian era. It isn't just a case of recent forced resettlement and deportations by Stalin. Whatever the case, they're there, and I'd like to see the humanitarian side of any policies that a nationalist government might direct against them.



Perfectly balanced reporting from the BBC, as always, I'm sure. I don't doubt there are plenty of people who share that view, but did they happen to counter it with any differing opinions from other locals, which also seem to be pretty common? Luckily we can go digging for a broader picture ourselves.

I love old "Auntie", but like her sister broadcaster in Australia, I don't think she can be trusted to deliver agenda free global news more than any other media mouthpiece. In fact, I'd say the BBC is the leading propaganda machine of the political and economic interests of the English speaking world due to its wide audience, approaching an equivalent of Pravda, which has also published a few articles on MH17.
MILW

The more recent settlements maybe the more supportive of mother Russia and certainly the ones with the family and political links to Russia.

No what the BBC reported was much bigger than just the bit I previously mentioned, it was part of their balanced reporting. ie one minute showing pro Russians protesting for Ukraine to let go and the silent minority Russians who were happy with the status quo.

As you say, every news source will have its bias and limitations on data collection based on the needs of the master. CNN international seems to lean to the US way of thinking but use a mixed bag of reporters and in many cases local reporters and/or ones capable of speaking the local lingo. Al Jazeera is also supposedly very independent even to the point of pi$$ing off the GCC neighbors when running a story with Israelis speaking Hebrew a few years back. But if you want a modern day Pravda, you cannot go past RT. Its like watching a hard line left Student union's TV station with its anti capitalist/free thinking, and anti big brother comments. Yet the only big brother that can do no wrong is mother russia.

Regards
Shane

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