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XPT Derailment

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      duttonbay Minister for Railways

    Just a heads up - it's believed that there is a difference in the wheel profile of the XPT versus the Overland NR/93 class + carriages that would be the main users of the SG track into Southern Cross. This may be, as alluded to earlier, the issue that was not properly accounted for (or was accounted for but the solution didn't address the issue adequately).
    "pandafalcon"

    Yes, there is a difference.  It's my understanding that the difference wasn't even discovered until the investigation following the derailment.  

    I would think that the main user of the SG track over the flyover will be VLine, with three return trips to Albury a day.  There are two return XPTs daily, while the Overland only runs three (?) days a week in either direction.
    Posted: 24 Jul 2014 19:05

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      blowfish Junior Train Controller

    Photos up on VICSig of N series locos and carriages running a test train over the points.
    Posted: 28 Jul 2014 15:44
      freightgate Minister for Railways

    Location: Albury, New South Wales
    Do you have a link you can share ?
    Posted: 28 Jul 2014 18:01
      duttonbay Minister for Railways
    Posted: 28 Jul 2014 18:23
      dean65 Locomotive Driver

    Location: Ballarat
    Cheers.
    Posted: 28 Jul 2014 20:57
      skitz Chief Commissioner

    Yes, there is a difference. It's my understanding that the difference wasn't even discovered until the investigation following the derailment.

    I would think that the main user of the SG track over the flyover will be VLine, with three return trips to Albury a day. There are two return XPTs daily, while the Overland only runs three (?) days a week in either direction.
    duttonbay

    Over twelve years ago or so an ARG train (used to know it as 'the Patricks') came to grief at Nth Geelong C on the gauge splitter.  The train came off and rerailed itself and continued up past Elders block point (which it was back then) before some falling brake gear took out the air.

    The interesting aspect of this derailment was the wheels under that particular train wore a specific way that was different to the other trains.  The traffic being confined to Melbourne Adelaide meant these wagons spent a fair bit of time negotiating the Adelaide Hills with their very stiff high speed bogie set up (read, they don't like to steer).  The face of the flanges had worn on an angle with a very sharp point at the apex, most unusual.  The gauge splitter also had a similar wear on the critical face rail (stock rail??) that pushes the SG wheel sets across to diverge from the BG.  What it meant was that the combination of a bit of speed, change or direction, bit of flange ride-up as it gripped the rail on the angles present and it was enough for the wheel set to be effectively 'under-gauge' and a bogie went up the wrong side of the gauge splitting vee on the opposite side.

    What was most interesting was the technical reason was relatively straight forward.  The political situation however was not.  Being at the commercial divide I was instructed that I was no allowed to inspect the train or put off wagons with similar offending wheels. So much if the train had of come off the next trip.

    I don't know what the outcome was.
    Posted: 29 Jul 2014 16:30
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    The gauge splitters originally fitted (1995)  at North Geelong  (Down side Thompsons Rd) and at Gheringhap  (Up side of  Buchters Rd) were of an AN design, and were supposed to allow for 65kmh operation in either direction on either gauge.  This 65kmh speed only applied for a relatively short time and then  40kmh generally applied.

    The gauge splitter at North Geelong went in the duplication between North Geelong and Moorabool commissioned a year or so ago .

    At the North Geelong end it is now dual gauge turnouts and crossovers with diverge speeds like 30kmh applying I think .  At Gheringhap it is still a fixed gauge splitter at the Up end  sg  Gheringhap Loop .
    Posted: 29 Jul 2014 19:51
      duttonbay Minister for Railways

    The turnout at which the XPT derailed is also of AN design.
    Posted: 29 Jul 2014 20:19
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    Effective 1802 Dn Albury VLP Tuesday 29/07/14 all VLP sg Passes back to normal operation right through to/ from Southern Cross.Midday VLP passes both ways resume operation as trains throughout Sth Cross / Albury from Wednesday 30/07/14.
    Posted: 29 Jul 2014 21:07
      jimmydirn Locomotive Fireman

    The turnout at which the XPT derailed is also of AN design.
    "duttonbay"


    It is based upon the old An type 37 design principles. BUT it is NOT and AN design. The original AN and more recent ARTC design was replaced by a so called "improved" design undertaken by VLine and it's " type approved" supplier.

    The matter of the different wheel dimensions is nothing new on the XPT. And also the XPT has been traversing very similar types of turnouts within SCS for many years now without incident. Again there is something in this new design that may have contributed to this incident.
    Posted: 29 Jul 2014 21:25
      duttonbay Minister for Railways

    It is based upon the old An type 37 design principles. BUT it is NOT and AN design. The original AN and more recent ARTC design was replaced by a so called "improved" design undertaken by VLine and it's " type approved" supplier.
    "jimmydirn"

    Thanks for the clarification
    Posted: 29 Jul 2014 21:57
      hunslet1915 Chief Train Controller

    Effective 1802 Dn Albury VLP Tuesday 29/07/14 all VLP sg Passes back to normal operation right through to/ from Southern Cross.Midday VLP passes both ways resume operation as trains throughout Sth Cross / Albury from Wednesday 30/07/14.
    kuldalai

    If the standard gauge V/Line services have been able to recommence services into and from Southern Cross, what about the GSR & XPT services?
    Posted: 11 Aug 2014 16:17
      railblogger Chief Commissioner

    Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
    If the standard gauge V/Line services have been able to recommence services into and from Southern Cross, what about the GSR & XPT services?
    hunslet1915

    I'm sure they would have recommenced as well.
    Posted: 11 Aug 2014 16:24
      duttonbay Minister for Railways

    I'm sure they would have recommenced as well.
    "railblogger"

    Not according to http://www.nswtrainlink.info/your_journey/service_alerts#Southern - which is hardly surprising given the problem was mostly related to the wheel profile on the XPT. I suspect that the turnout will need to be relaid (maybe redesigned first) before an XPT will be permitted through. The V/Line wheel profile doesn't have the problems.  No idea about GSR though. There web site doesn't make any mention of the need to change at North Shore, and their Facebook page goes on and on about the Ghan and the IP, and doesn't seem to mention the Overland at all.
    Posted: 11 Aug 2014 16:56
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    The Weekly Nuisance  currently has a 15 kmh SR over the offending turnout for bg trains, and the only sg stock allowed over the turnout isVLP   N loco: 453, 463, 473 P loco: 13 PCJ van: 491, 492, 493  ACN car: 3, 45, 48  BRN car: 43, 46, 53  BDN car: 6, 21, 50  BN car: 2, 5, 7, 10, 19, 22  .

    Reason listed for SR is  review track design .

    One would think next move would be to  shuttle some spare  GSR  sg loco and cars over those points and see if anything happens. If not then GSR sg trains could possibly resume into Southern Cross as they should have similar wheel profile to VLP loco hauled sg stock .
    Posted: 11 Aug 2014 18:01
      YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

    Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
    In this thread are we actually talking about wheels and wheelsets to totally different dimensions (other than wheel diameter), or are we talking about 'standard' wheels just with different profiles to tread and flange?
    Posted: 11 Aug 2014 19:23

    Last edited by YM-Mundrabilla on 11 Aug 2014 19:24; edited 1 time in total
      duttonbay Minister for Railways

    The former. It is my understanding that the XPT wheels are slightly narrower than the V/Line wheels.  However I'm not an expert, never employed in the industry.
    Posted: 11 Aug 2014 20:31

    Last edited by duttonbay on 11 Aug 2014 20:32; edited 1 time in total
      Chidda Bang Locomotive Driver

    Location: Banned
    Who remembers back in 2008, before Broadmeadows or Benalla had SG platforms, when they terminated the XPT at North Dynon with a bus connection?

    http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1058569.htm

    At least Broadmeadows is not a huge inconvenience for XPT passengers, but North Shore is a bit far for the Overland.
    Posted: 11 Aug 2014 20:38
      Dave-the-slave Station Master

    Location: Epping, Victoria
    Check out the ATSB report regarding the XPT derailment in 2001 at Wodonga for background info. One axle on the tightest curve between Wodonga and Melb. Goes into a bit of detail about XPT bogies, wheel sets flange monitoring etc.

    http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2001/rair/rair2001001.aspx
    Posted: 12 Aug 2014 13:08
      YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

    Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
    Thanks Dave.
    It's all extra knowledge.
    Posted: 12 Aug 2014 13:12
      bevans Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Some further information about the derailment in Melbourne last July.

    http://www.onrsr.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/9126/1-XPT-derailment-safety-alert-approved.docx.pdf
    Posted: 03 Sep 2014 21:04
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    Seems to clearly hint xpt thin profile wheelsets and that the turnout design at that location. are not the best match. looks like that dg turnout and others similar put in with RRL works will need changeout to another design that is more amiable with thin profile xpt wheel treads.
    Posted: 03 Sep 2014 21:58
      duttonbay Minister for Railways

    Another alternative is to follow the Newcastle plan, and truncate the XPT at Broadmeadows Smile
    Posted: 03 Sep 2014 22:01
      garethsh Junior Train Controller

    ... or convert the WHOLE state to standard gauge so there are no dual gauge points. Smile

    Would also solve this where one rail stops:
    (ATSB report released today)
    "Derailment of freight train 9501V at South Dynon Junction, West Melbourne, Vic on 2 March 2013"
    http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/rair/ro-2013-009.aspx
    Posted: 04 Sep 2014 14:12

    Last edited by garethsh on 04 Sep 2014 14:13; edited 1 time in total
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    The interim report is out on the ATSB website.

    Not previously widely known is that the Up XPT same morning negotiated the equivalent Up dg turnout roughly, and appears train may have derailed and re  railed passing through the Up dg turnout.
    Initial investigation points to derailment of the down XPT was caused by a combination of wheel profile on XPT and part of the wheel transfer area within the specific design of the dg turnout used at the site.

    As reported in another thread the current focus is on modifying the turnout type to accept operation of sg XPT narrower wheel profile.

    Other rail Operators with similar dg turnouts have been alerted to the issue.

    The interim report makes no mention of any issues with bg rollingstock and the dg turnout type. Similarly no issues are raised with conventional sg wheelsets as used on VLP and GSR passing through the particular dg turnout.
    Posted: 25 Sep 2014 22:16

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