Double-decker trains a mistake for Sydney: O'Farrell

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 24 Apr 2014 12:18
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Why not have a hybrid? At stations like Central/City Circle etc, the guard presses "door open", whilst at smaller stations in the off peak, the guard would push "release"? This functionality is on the OSCar trains already, so it can be done.

Sponsored advertisement

  matthewg Train Controller


Well, we have tried semi-automatic doors with our trains before, including the C sets, Xplorer/Endeavour, OSTs, OSCARs and Hunter railcars - mostly non suburban stock and not used in the metropolitan areas. I'm assuming they were not considered suitable for suburban service where all doors are frequently used at every stop, meaning they'd be open anyway, aside from possible additional delays by introducing another link to the chain - guard unlocks doors, passengers then have to press button to open instead of guard opening them all in one step.
waxyzebu

Passenger opened doors works in every other city in Australia and the majority of cities around the world. It seems to be a Sydney specific problem....
  viaprojects Train Controller

Passenger opened doors works in every other city in Australia and the majority of cities around the world. It seems to be a Sydney specific problem....
matthewg


sydney passenger have been tested. we have gone from manual to auto doors. we hate opening the v set doors and don't like reaching for a button over a gap for the door not to open.

any way it stuffs up the timetable if the passengers have to open the doors.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
any way it stuffs up the timetable if the passengers have to open the doors.
viaprojects

No, the thing that stuffs up the timetable is passengers doing what they're not supposed to. Vandalism (eg broken window) resulting in carriage locked off? That makes trains late as people on the platform need to change carriages before boarding. People running for closing doors and getting stuck? That makes trains late as the doors need to be cycled. People holding the doors open for other people running onto the platform. People texting and stepping onto trains who trip and injure themselves. Passenges who push other people to get on/off the train who cause injury.

These things are things that "stuff up the timetable". A nanosecond to open the doors works in multiple states and countries around the world, and you don't hear of "timetable chaos" because of manually opening doors.
  PKBeam Locomotive Driver

Location: Somewhere in NSW
it stuffs up the timetable if the passengers have to open the doors.
viaprojects

so when was the last time a V set was delayed because people had to open the doors themselves?
  viaprojects Train Controller

A nanosecond to open the doors works in multiple states and countries around the world, and you don't hear of "timetable chaos" because of manually opening doors.
Raichase


your door's open fast. sydney has a few rail system on the same rails with changing policy on the doors for weather for the intercity/mountains trains. auto , push a button , open the door. train under test. or other options.

afik for the rest of the world they offen have a single common rail set on a single rail line and you know how to open the door for that rail network.

while we have had 3 or more differnt ways to open a door on a single set over the years. we also have some door tec to slow the system down.
  waxyzebu Locomotive Driver

Passenger opened doors works in every other city in Australia and the majority of cities around the world. It seems to be a Sydney specific problem....
matthewg


I agree that it doesn't have to be a problem; was merely speculating as to why different types of train have had different door control systems. It may come down to design committee / engineering experimentation, but with the outer suburban / interurban stock it seems more deliberate, since they all have some sort of special arrangement.


afik for the rest of the world they offen have a single common rail set on a single rail line and you know how to open the door for that rail network

It's not a major issue, but I do feel that having different types of power door control systems on the same network - some requiring passenger input, some not, is asking for delays with the former. It wasn't really a problem with a mixture of power versus manual doors (since inward opening and sliding manual doors were generally left open anyway) but with different types of power doors, passengers don't pay attention to this stuff and arguably they shouldn't have to.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Double means twice as much as single so I am perplexed how the ex Premier thinks single is more?
  PKBeam Locomotive Driver

Location: Somewhere in NSW
Less is more, less is more...
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
To me, Double Deck is not the problem, it's the design of the cars themselves.

Whilst OK for Interurban runs where most passengers get on/off at Central, the problem is the Suburban services, as the time taken to load/unload at busy Stations impacts the dwell time while people negotiate narrow stairs and doors. Watch a peak-hour stop at Wynyard or Town Hall and you will see what I mean. Wider platforms would of course help at both those locations, but very difficult and expensive to provide.
mikesyd


It seems there is one station in Sydney, at Olympic Park, which has platforms on both sides of each track, when there is an event on there, passengers board on one side and alight on the other.
Why isn't this the case at any other station in Sydney?
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
If we still had only single deckers,
then with the increase in traffic
due to population growth in Sydney
then we would need more tracks
such as duplication and quadruplication.

The saving on rolling stock
would be spent on infrastructure.

Which would be better?
Do not rightly know.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
It seems there is one station in Sydney, at Olympic Park, which has platforms on both sides of each track, when there is an event on there, passengers board on one side and alight on the other.
Why isn't this the case at any other station in Sydney?
Myrtone


Epping had a double platform track from 1928-1980 or so.

Granville in double track days had a narrow island platform for interchange between two side platforms.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
And why did they covert it to single platform tracks?

The dwell rate of a double decker at a station with platforms on both sides would probably be greater than that of a single decker at a station with platforms on only one side.

If we still had only single deckers,
then with the increase in traffic
due to population growth in Sydney
then we would need more tracks
such as duplication and quadruplication.

The saving on rolling stock
would be spent on infrastructure.

Which would be better?
Do not rightly know.


I don't recall any single track sections when I was in Sydney, all sections of track I've seen there are at least double track. And double track allows trains to pass each other anywhere. With single track trains can only pass each other at passing loops, which, in case of passenger railways, would be best located at stations, preferabsy all station. And quadruple track would allow trains to leapfrog.

But on all my trips to Sydney, double deckers were more significant to me that the Harbour Bridge or the opera house. They're quite special, being the only DD trains in Austalasia. I've thought of them like London's Routemaster buses and San Francisco's cable cars, except of course that they always run on dedicated right of way.
  darcyj Chief Train Controller

I don't recall any single track sections when I was in Sydney, all sections of track I've seen there are at least double track.
Myrtone


We still have single track running between Clyde and Carlingford, with no passing loops, and between Schofields and Richmond with passing loops at Riverstone, Mulgrave and Clarendon stations (and two platform roads at Richmond).
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Is the Schofields-Richmond section longer, with more stations, than the Clyde-Carlingford section? I gather there are only two single track sections and the Sydney Suburban is one of the largest of its kind in the world, bigger than the London Underground or even the NYC subway.
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Is the Schofields-Richmond section longer, with more stations, than the Clyde-Carlingford section? I gather there are only two single track sections and the Sydney Suburban is one of the largest of its kind in the world, bigger than the London Underground or even the NYC subway.
Myrtone

Your question interested me as I spent a week in New York in June. It was not my first visit and I stayed in an apartment in 187th street about 20 mins by subway from Times Square. The NY Subway system seems much bigger but wikipedia indicates otherwise as far as track and route mileage is concerned. However I am not sure if the Sydney figures include the interurban lines or not.
However New York has about 5 times more passenger trips per week than Sydney. Not surprising, as one afternoon I decided to take the bus back to my apartment instead of the train. Big mistake as the sightseeing wore out after 90 minutes. Of course timetables are of no interest as you rarely wait more than 5- 8 minutes even at 11pm. I used the A line which runs express up Manhattan but occasionally had to use the all station C line or the neighbouring 1 line and change. However no problem due to frequency of service.
Your other questions. The single track section from Schofield to Richmond is 16.9 km with 7 stations. The single track from Rosehill to Carlingford is 5.4 km with 5 stations.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Why not have a hybrid? At stations like Central/City Circle etc, the guard presses "door open", whilst at smaller stations in the off peak, the guard would push "release"? This functionality is on the OSCar trains already, so it can be done.
Raichase

I quite like this idea.  Resolves the issues of passenger operated doors increasing dwell time at the choke point and therefore reducing overall system capacity while not incurring the extra air conditioning cost of having the doors open when they don't need to.  On the Western Line, I'd open all doors at:
Chatswood, St Leonards, North Sydney, Wynyard thru Redfern, Strathfield, Lidcombe, Granville, Parramatta, Westmead, Seven Hills, Blacktown and Penrith at a minimum.  Probably Burwood too, for trains which stop there.  Not sure which stations between Chatswood and Hornsby.

Regarding passenger confusion, if the light which tells you the button has been pressed, there shouldn't be any real confusion about this approach.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Speaking of doors, how about platform screen doors at all those underground stations, I mean the ones on the existing suburban railway network. They can be used regardless of how trains are driven and can be designed to accommodate all variations in door arrangements.




They have been suggested for the New York MTA, and we could do with them here in Melbourne too, at our three underground stations and any new ones, so there is potential for a joint venture order.

Regarding the single track sections, Rosehill-Carlingford has five stations without passing loops, and as for Schofield-to-Richmond, are the passing loops all at stations. I can see sense in a single track section having passing loops at all stations.

EDIT:Judging from maps I've seen it seems that they Sydney suburban also has very few cul-de-sacs, the Richmond line being one.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.