RRL Project - West Werribee / Southern Cross

 
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Today:
Melb - Geelong: 53 min Up, 51 Down.
Melb - Ballarat: 74 min Up, 66 Down.
Melb - Bendigo: 97 min Up, 93 Down (usually AM up is 93 min from recent experience).
Melb - Traralgon: 123 min Up (!), 135 Down (!!!). (47 minutes just to get past Dandenong).

It'll be interesting to see if Geelong services on Sunshine - SCS RRL section slow up Bendigo & Ballarat trains after April.
Carnot

Why would Geelong trains on RRL  slow up Ballarat and / or Bendigo trains ?    RRL is signalled to handle 20 tarins per hour each way  Viz:  3 minute headways .  With all trains having the same stopping conditions out to Sunshine its hould run like clockwork provided VLP MANAGE  Southern Cross properly to see that trains depart on time.  

Once beyond Sunshine on the Bendigo leg we are unfortunately mixed in with Metro till Sunbury.

On the Ballarat leg out to Deer Park Junction there is plenty of room for both Ballarats & Geelongs with a capacity of up to 20 trains per hour, so if properly timetabled there should be no problems .

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I wonder if they actually mean Corio station rather than North Shore - Corio is the one currently having its platform resealed.

And having the Geelong trains (and presumably the Ballarat and Bendigo ones?) stop at Sunshine must make the possibility of re-opening the North Shore-Ballarat direct line for passengers somewhat more unlikely, as people wanting to travel between Geelong and Ballarat (or Bendigo) will be able to change trains at Sunshine rather than travel into Southern Cross.

Unless it's only Geelong travellers being slowed down by a Sunshine stop, of course. Wasn't there some talk early on that RRL trains weren't going to stop at Sunshine?
Tony M.

Both North Shore & Corio platforms currently being sealed.  Northern suburbs bus interchange with tarins will be at  North Shore & Lara, NOT Corio .
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
With the 160kmh running it is rarely achieved on the Bendigo and Traralgon lines with the close spacing of stations
kuldalai

Morwell to Traralgon (14 Km's) has a fair bit of high speed running, there Is a long sweeping curve with a 150 km/h speed limit In this section.

But as for stations that are spaced about 8 Km's apart, the difference between 130 Km/h and 160 Km/h top speeds, wouldn't be that noticeable on a timetable.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
But as for stations that are spaced about 8 Km's apart, the difference between 130 Km/h and 160 Km/h top speeds, wouldn't be that noticeable on a timetable.
Nightfire

Might be the case between stations, but over the whole line I suspect it would be quite a big difference.
  Tony M. Locomotive Fireman

Both North Shore & Corio platforms currently being sealed. Northern suburbs bus interchange with tarins will be at North Shore & Lara, NOT Corio .
kuldalai

Thanks for clearing that up. I've since checked the PTV website and discovered their new proposed Geelong bus routes involve cancelling the route that passes near my house, so any time savings to Melbourne from the new 20 minute train frequency are cancelled out by the new ten minute walk to the nearest alternative bus (which only departs every 40 minutes). Swings and roundabouts, it's the public transport way.
  blowfish Junior Train Controller

Can't recall if this has been mentioned before, but I noticed the Up Apex Quarry train to Westall (9430), is listed as via RRL from Sunshine to Sth Kensington junction.

Is there a particular reason why it uses the RRL instead of the freight lines?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Why would Geelong trains on RRL slow up Ballarat and / or Bendigo trains ? RRL is signalled to handle 20 tarins per hour each way Viz: 3 minute headways . With all trains having the same stopping conditions out to Sunshine its hould run like clockwork provided VLP MANAGE Southern Cross properly to see that trains depart on time.
kuldalai

True.  So is the plan for Bendigo trains to stop at Sunshine in the future (none do at present)?

As I see it (correct me if I'm wrong), there are two "choke" points in the RRL:
1) Down and Up BG trains from most platforms having to use a single track just South of the flyover.
2) Entanglement of BG trains where the flyover BG lines converge with the RRL tracks from platforms 15-16 NW of North Melb. (I noticed they've been sorting out the signaling for this just recently)
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Might be the case between stations, but over the whole line I suspect it would be quite a big difference.
railblogger

No. Where the distance between stations is not great the SAS trains never get up to 160kmh so over successive stops the end result is still no benefit with 160kmh line speed as trains never get the chance to achieve it .
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

True. So is the plan for Bendigo trains to stop at Sunshine in the future (none do at present)?

As I see it (correct me if I'm wrong), there are two "choke" points in the RRL:
1) Down and Up BG trains from most platforms having to use a single track just South of the flyover.
2) Entanglement of BG trains where the flyover BG lines converge with the RRL tracks from platforms 15-16 NW of North Melb. (I noticed they've been sorting out the signaling for this just recently)
Carnot

1. Coming off the North Melbourne flyover into Southern Cross there are parallel Up & Down dual gauge tracks leading to the Country platforms  (sg into 1 or 2)  bg into any of 1 - 7 South via tracks in front of CMD .

There is new VLP by pass line single track bi directional line (connecting to the Up and down dg flyover tracks) that gives access to platform 7 North & platform 8 and 8 South beside but independent of the East Suburban lines. (For access to platform 8 Metro has to signal in final leg.)

Of the main leads into the country terminal off the flyover RRL tracks there are 5 tracks  2 x dg, and 3 bg.  Three of these roads are bi directional.

The new layout is a vast improvement on the old spaghetti junction, and allows for far more flexibility in parrallel moves .

If VLP timetable all light engine and car placement moves as well as the pass moves the place should run far more smoothly.

Closer in at the ladder road leading to platforms 4, 5. 6. and 7 South  yes there is still a single track choke point .

2.  The  RRL track pair from platforms 15/16 meet the  RRL track pair off the North melbourne Flyover at Spion Kop Junction .  
Down & Up trains in parallel should be timetabled to avoid conflicts at this point .  The conflicting potential move here is an Up to plats 1-7 v a Down ex 15/16 , however with proper platforming and scheduling that should not happen .
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The apex used to run via Albion goods to Tottenham yard and then via sims street to South Kensington junction. Has this now stopped or could the change (if there is one) be temporary ?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
(The Velocities would have performed alright on the pre RFR network with its 130 km/h limit)
Nightfire


The RRL hasn't even been implemented yet and its benefits are already being written off Question...how quickly we forget about the crowded paths from Werribee and Sunshine.

Moreover the pre-RFR track was stuffed. Nineteenth century signalling on the Bendigo line which was unlikely to cope with all the services that operate today.

On the Ballarat line, a Spring shower would put the signals at Rockbank on red and that lines signalling would never have worked with the increased services either, not to mention the absence of the Bungaree diversion. BTW there are at least 5 express trains through Bacchus Marsh each week day.

Should we not have bothered implementing the Train Protection Warning System (TPWS) either Question


Mike.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Nobody is arguing with the wonderful benefits that our previous government(s) have gifted us.

We went from the whole system being threatened with shut-down under Lonie (1981) to having a greatly expanded regional rail system, the envy of our nation really. Regional Fast Rail and Regional Rail Link were huge steps forward, undoubtedly - but RFR hobbled future network expansion with lack of gauge-convertible sleepers and the singling of the Bendigo line. One percent of the overall project cost for gauge-convertible sleepers - Minister Bachelor really buggered that one up, no doubt in my mind. And RRL won't solve all of the network problems either - it completely ignored the need for a network expansion badly needed in the east and won't actually speed up the Geelong line.

Money spent on the network has gone a long way but there's lots of instances where it could have been spent smarter.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Nobody is arguing with the wonderful benefits that our previous government(s) have gifted us.

We went from the whole system being threatened with shut-down under Lonie (1981) to having a greatly expanded regional rail system, the envy of our nation really. Regional Fast Rail and Regional Rail Link were huge steps forward, undoubtedly - but RFR hobbled future network expansion with lack of gauge-convertible sleepers and the singling of the Bendigo line. One percent of the overall project cost for gauge-convertible sleepers - Minister Bachelor really buggered that one up, no doubt in my mind. And RRL won't solve all of the network problems either - it completely ignored the need for a network expansion badly needed in the east and won't actually speed up the Geelong line.

Money spent on the network has gone a long way but there's lots of instances where it could have been spent smarter.
don_dunstan

No one promised or expects reduced travel times as a result of RRL . What RRL was built for was to separate Geelong & Ballarat services from Metro altogether, and Bendigo services between Southern Cross and Down end of Sunshine. In doing so Metro gets released paths ex VLP to use between Southern Cross and Werribee, Southern cross and Sunshine and some flow on benefits also to the Craigieburn Line allowing allegedly some extra direct Peak trains .

RRL initially offers 20 paths per hour each way, plus the former VLP paths released to Metro.

With Geelong albeit the distance is longer via the new route the average speed will be much higher and travel times should only need to be extended for local hauled services and then only marginally .
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm not disputing the benefits of further separation of V/line and suburban services - there's no doubt that capacity increases are a wonderful and much-needed thing.

I question the way these things were funded though... I feel RRL got the green light while Dandenong triplication was shunted because they were able to argue that there were more intra-state benefits (probably right).  But it left other choke points in the network struggling on; things like grade separation, advanced signalling and extra capacity/tracks where they're screaming out for it. I guess to comes down to the largesse of Rudd and the fact that at that very moment Brumby had something ready to go... I certainly don't think we'd see Abbott fund anything to do with rail whatsoever so I suppose we should be grateful.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
One percent of the overall project cost for gauge-convertible sleepers
don_dunstan

Those gauge-convertible sleepers would still have been sitting there today, a monumental waste of money.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Err... no. They would be in situ being used, waiting for the political will to take the final step and move the rail inward 6.5'... whenever that might be.

We're talking about $10 million or so to make the Victorian country rail network more easily compatible with the ARTC network - I don't think that would have been money wasted.
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
Err... no. They would be in situ being used, waiting for the political will to take the final step and move the rail inward 6.5'... whenever that might be.

We're talking about $10 million or so to make the Victorian country rail network more easily compatible with the ARTC network - I don't think that would have been money wasted.
don_dunstan

I believe that 5' 3" gauge concrete sleepers can be fitted with suitable rail base plates that will move the rails 6.5" inwards.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Err... no. They would be in situ being used, waiting for the political will to take the final step and move the rail inward 6.5'... whenever that might be.
don_dunstan

Before they became life expired...  highly unlikely.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Before they became life expired... highly unlikely.
ZH836301

I'm so glad you have a crystal ball and can see that our network will still be on broad gauge in another fifty years when the sleepers are life-expired.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
You really think there's any economic sense in standardising hundreds of kilometres of passenger line and rollingstock?

Fairytales.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
You really think there's any economic sense in standardising hundreds of kilometres of passenger line and rollingstock?

Fairytales.
ZH836301

Your opinion.

Businesses in Ballarat and Bendigo have been crying out for years for direct access to the ARTC network. It was actually promised under Labor when they were first elected in 1999 but they quickly backed down when they realised the expense. Same with the Napthine government.

It made no sense to re-lay entire trunk routes without the option of gauge-convertibility; it was actually against Labor's own policy of long-term standardisation.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Which ones and how much are they offering?
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
It be interesting to see - how many people will interchange from the Geelong train at Sunshine next year for the city loop service.

Geelong to Melbourne peak fare: $11.80

Geelong to Sunshine : $3.08


Sunshine to City Loop : $3.76

Total = $6.84
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic
It be interesting to see - how many people will interchange from the Geelong train at Sunshine next year for the city loop service.

Geelong to Melbourne peak fare: $11.80

Geelong to Sunshine : $3.08


Sunshine to City Loop : $3.76

Total = $6.84
melbtrip

myki will work out the trip and charge you correctly; possibly even with a touch off and on again
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
myki will work out the trip and charge you correctly; possibly even with a touch off and on again
Galron

This how myki works it out, if a person travels from Geelong to Sunshine and then Metro train to a city loop station from Sunshine:

Geelong to Sunshine : $3.08
Sunshine to City Loop : $3.76

Total = $6.84



V/Line people wishing to travel to city loop and want a cheaper travel - is best to travel to outer zone 2 location and transfer from there, in this case (after  RRL (regional rail link)  works) Sunshine.

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