Which is why Western govts are now avoiding the term "ISIS" and now using "ISIL"(or what ever that term is) to deny them any reference to impling they are a country.

Wrong.

ISIS = Islamic State of Iraq and Syria.

ISIL = Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

Both are translations from the Arabic language of the group, but the Levant (the historical name for the 'Greater Syria' region which includes the modern states of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Israel, the island of Cyprus and the south-eastern part of Turkey) is a more accurate translation of the Arabic term in the group's name. The US Department of State prefers Levant as possibly promoting further cooperation from other Islamic countries in the region instead of implying they will stop if they can occupy the whole of Syria.

The name which was rejected by the UN and governments across practically the whole world was the 2014 attempt by ISIS/ISIL to get everyone to call them 'Islamic State' when they self-proclaimed a worldwide caliphate.

Or: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/09/17/france-is-ditching-the-islamic-state-name-and-replacing-it-with-a-label-the-group-hates/

Considering the regularity with which Washington meddles in Middle Eastern affairs, it's surprising that they didn't pick up on DAESH until after the French, a nationality infamously derided by the last redneck hick in the White House as being cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

I have to agree with those that have said he was simply a nut case and should not have been on the street actually. Now for those that shot up the magazine office in France who were they no body knows really they could have three ex employees with a grudge for all anyone knows. In actual fact they could have been anybody out to sully the name of Islam etc. Just to get the public up in arms and get polititicians etc to get off the Asses and do something!. There are a million and one more things they could have been as well, but no they all get lumped in as terrorist's.

Any fool can get people held hostage to hold up any flag they want to, it does not necessarily mean that they are part of something though! An indigenous person could hold up one of their flags, but does it mean he represents that group I think not!

You miss the point too. The indigenous people are not a terrorist organisation, neither is their flag a terrorist symbol. These statements are not true for ISIS and the ISIS flag.

I have to agree with those that have said he was simply a nut case and should not have been on the street actually. Now for those that shot up the magazine office in France who were they no body knows really they could have three ex employees with a grudge for all anyone knows. In actual fact they could have been anybody out to sully the name of Islam etc. Just to get the public up in arms and get polititicians etc to get off the Asses and do something!. There are a million and one more things they could have been as well, but no they all get lumped in as terrorist's.

Any fool can get people held hostage to hold up any flag they want to, it does not necessarily mean that they are part of something though! An indigenous person could hold up one of their flags, but does it mean he represents that group I think not!

Good grief.... haven't you read the news confirming that the gunmen were brothers who had a long history of Islamic radicalism?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-08/paris-gunmen-born-in-france-two-brothers-say-police/6005806

Seriously, it never ceases to amaze me the extent to which people will blame everyone and everything except Islam, the (thin-skinned) faith that is the common denominator and motivator of most terrorist attacks in the world today.

Meanwhile, so many leftist types continue to pontificate about how we Westerners should not express an opinion and publicly criticize Islam lest it offend a few Muslims - they even call it "racist" or "Islamophobic"!  Cowards.

Poor choice of words - 'do gooders' may have been a better term than 'leftist types' as there are as many people who would describe themselves as being 'left' rather than 'right' who are just as prepared to stand up for this country as anybody else.
It is the so called 'do gooders' who have become a fifth column in this country at the moment.

Poor choice of words - 'do gooders' may have been a better term than 'leftist types' as there are as many people who would describe themselves as being 'left' rather than 'right' who are just as prepared to stand up for this country as anybody else.
It is the so called 'do gooders' who have become a fifth column in this country at the moment.

The only other logical options are to do nothing or be a 'do badder'.

We can safely assume that you and your ilk fit into one of those two categories.

The only other logical options are to do nothing or be a 'do badder'.

We can safely assume that you and your ilk fit into one of those two categories.

The other logical option you haven't mentioned is those who know when to keep their nose out of other's lives.

They are called 'do-gooders' because they believe they are doing good for the world.

To everyone else, they are meddling in people's lives and really have no idea what they are talking about.

The only other logical options are to do nothing or be a 'do badder'.

We can safely assume that you and your ilk fit into one of those two categories.

Is there not a third choice ie to be neither a do gooder or a do badder and support the laws of the country which have been passed by parliament and let those laws take their course without partisan interference? The ballot box is the place to change those laws if necessary.

The point that I was trying to make is that people of the left are not all bad any more that people of the right are all good. There is good and bad on both sides of political leaning as well as in the middle too.

The other logical option you haven't mentioned is those who know when to keep their nose out of other's lives.

They are called 'do-gooders' because they believe they are doing good for the world.

To everyone else, they are meddling in people's lives and really have no idea what they are talking about.

So effectively you are saying that everyone should be a 'do nothing'.

So effectively you are saying that everyone should be a 'do nothing'.

I'd rather that then do gooding. YM-M has it nailed, it is possible to just follow the laws of the country without 'doing good' or bad.

Poor choice of words - 'do gooders' may have been a better term than 'leftist types' as there are as many people who would describe themselves as being 'left' rather than 'right' who are just as prepared to stand up for this country as anybody else.
It is the so called 'do gooders' who have become a fifth column in this country at the moment.

Remind me why there are no "do gooders" amongst these neo-conservative mobs such as ISIL or the Nazis for that matter.

Ah yes those leftist, socialist, comos, reds again   As opposed to reactionary, would be fascists waiting for some future Adolf to save their small-minded, tightRsed little world.

I'll take do gooders over fear driven, hate filled ratbags any day regardless who they pray to

I'd rather that then do gooding. YM-M has it nailed, it is possible to just follow the laws of the country without 'doing good' or bad.

What laws are the do gooders not following pray tell?

In many cases do gooders would be making sure 'people' have proper access to test the laws of a country where those in power would seek to deny them proper representation under the law (yes even in Australia), something I'm sure you (as you have indicated in other threads) would agree with whole heartedly.

And why the hell can't those damn protesters in Hong Kong just 'do nothing' and follow the laws of their country?

You miss the point too. The indigenous people are not a terrorist organisation, neither is their flag a terrorist symbol. These statements are not true for ISIS and the ISIS flag.

Aaron! Always such absolute, unwavering certainty so typical of your 'right'-eousness

Your black and white view of the world simply mirrors the mentality of those perpetrating these acts. Unable to cope with grey they need to run off to the nearest jihad to bleach their world. The latest lot with a final solution

OK, I’ll concede that anyone threatening violence to intimidate is a terrorist. Whoop de do, what next to keep those juices flowing?

Seriously Uni of Adelaide expert, leave the analysis to the professionals. As more facts emerge over Martin Place some of your previous assertions are at best arrogant. Posturing might get votes and ratings and make you feel better but it adds nothing to something that has no easy solution.

Remind me why there are no "do gooders" amongst these neo-conservative mobs such as ISIL or the Nazis for that matter.

Ah yes those leftist, socialist, comos, reds again   As opposed to reactionary, would be fascists waiting for some future Adolf to save their small-minded, tightRsed little world.

I'll take do gooders over fear driven, hate filled ratbags any day regardless who they pray to

There are no 'do-gooders' in ISIL etc because when they open their mouths, they get taken out the back and shot.

"Do-gooders'  are a vocal minority who think they know better than everyone else.    And to extend that further, then you could say that ISIL etc are 'do-gooders' for their cause.

You seem to be the only one that lives in your "small-minded, tightRsed little world."

When did I say any indigenous person was a terrorist, I never did, all I said was IF a indigenous person held up their flag. Can you not read English or something, I was simply making a point something that you fail to see though. Do not put words into people mouths though and for God's sake actually read what is in the post and comprehend it, do not put your own spin on it. You university types astound me you cannot see the wood for the tree's, even when it is simply put in a post. Get off your high horse and look at it.

One man with a shot gun, gets hostages to hold up some old rag with weird squiggles on it to a window. This makes him no more a terrorist that if you held up a old rag with funny squiggles on it. Oh and before you start I never said at any time that you are a terrorist!

This was purely and simply a nut case who should really have been in jail in the first place for violent crimes in the past, it does not matter what religion he was or who he supports he acted alone just the same as Martin Bryant did in Tasmania, he went of his rocker and decided to take it out on someone anyone. A terrorist would have a clear cut plan on what he wanted and wanted to do. This nutter was a spur of the moment job, he had not planned or if he planned a little, had not planned it well in any case.

As I said if he was any other religion other than Islamic it would just have been a case of "Nutter takes hostages in city cafe" that would have been the headline. The media today see these things and do what you do put things into them that are not really there.

Getting them to hold that flag up he was trying to get respect from those that support this group and it back fired terribly in his case, even the Islamic community denounced him. He could have held up an Italian flag or any other countries flag but the result would still be the same a simple nut case on the loose.

If he really was a terrorist he would have blown the place up and him as well to get his 7 virgins or what ever in the here after, he did not do this though, so that alone speaks volumes, all terrorist's are prepared to die to get their just desert's in the hereafter and they don't mind killing a few people either, this guy let most of them go though. Nope no terrorist here just a nut case really!

There are no 'do-gooders' in ISIL etc because when they open their mouths, they get taken out the back and shot.

"....you could say that ISIL etc are 'do-gooders' for their cause. ...

You've managed to get ISIL to wipe themselves out

...You seem to be the only one that lives in your "small-minded, tightRsed little world."

Well I can get my mind around 50 shades of grey so I'm quite broad minded, and I'm not running to Abbort to protect my squillions from those less well off.

Quack

OK, I’ll concede that anyone threatening violence to intimidate is a terrorist.

So now you get it, he is by the accepted definition of the term a terrorist, no need to resize the cap, just put it on him and be done with it.

When did I say any indigenous person was a terrorist, I never did,

Where did I say you did? I said you'd missed the point, you were trying to draw a link between people and flags, without considering what the flags mean. Holding up, requsting for, or wanting to be associated with a TERRORIST organisation's flag is quite different from hanging out with the flag of a soverign nation, the flag of a non terrorist group of people, or the flag on a bouy indicating divers below. There's a reason why Australian warships fly our the Australian White Ensign and not the Jolly Roger... The two have somewhat different meanings, despite both near universally being regarded as 'flags'.

Can you not read English or something,

Clearly yes, can you?
Perhaps not, you're missing a word:

you cannot see the wood for the tree's

The tree's what? Leaves? Branches?

One man with a shot gun, gets hostages to hold up some old rag with weird squiggles on it to a window. This makes him no more a terrorist that if you held up a old rag with funny squiggles on it. Oh and before you start I never said at any time that you are a terrorist!

Oh I know I cause you a lot of terror, but not nearly as much terror as you cause us.

Are you, in your nonsensical ramblings suggesting he was asking for the symbol of a terrorist organisation because he didn't want to be associated with them? Let me guess, you still think he wanted a phone conversation with Tony Abbott so that he could invite him over for some roast pork on Christmas Day huh?

You are missing the point, the flag HE SPECIFICALLY DEMANDED to have presented to him was the flag of ISIS - I don't refer to it as ISIL, because the faux sheikh asked for an 'ISIS' flag. Let me break it down for you, if you go to the soccer World Cup final, in Argentina with Australia playing Germany and you want to look like you are supporting Australia which flag would you take? a) Argentinan, b) Australian, c) German, d) Kenyan, e) Chinese, f) ISIS...? Did you miss it? It's B. You would take the Australian Flag to associate yourself with the Australian Team, you wouldn't take a Star Spangled Banner, although on reflection maybe you would, because that too would make no sense.

It's important to note here that I am not suggesting that ISIS will enter a team in the World Cup, nor am I suggesting that Australia would ever make the final, nor am I suggesting that you like soccer, or that you'd ever be allowed into Argentina, even if you maybe wanted to go.

This was purely and simply a nut case who should really have been in jail in the first place for violent crimes in the past, it does not matter what religion he was or who he supports he acted alone just the same as Martin Bryant did in Tasmania, he went of his rocker and decided to take it out on someone anyone. A terrorist would have a clear cut plan on what he wanted and wanted to do. This nutter was a spur of the moment job, he had not planned or if he planned a little, had not planned it well in any case.

Do you know the specific difference between the faux sheikh and Martin Bryant? It's nothing to do with religion. Martin Bryant showed no inclination toward aligning himself with any terrorist organisation. The faux sheikh whether he had a real link or otherwise, tried to make himself look as though he was so linked, and is just about QED on this being a terrorist attack.

You also need to do some reading on terrorists, they often DON'T have a clear cut plan, they often operate without an exit strategy, their end game is the end of themselves. This was planned, he didn't leave home with a sawn off shotgun and a fake bomb in a backpack because he suddenly realised as his kettle boiled that he'd run of coffee.

Do we never learn.
ISIS (whatever) supporter person charged with theft, possession of a gun, threatening police, politicians and the US President by some electronic means or other is out on bail in Victoria.
Magistrate said she could not decide whether he was a threat or not so let him out on bail..............

So now you get it, he is by the accepted definition of the term a terrorist, no need to resize the cap, just put it on him and be done with it.

Yep anyone who terrorises anyone is a terrorist. Man threatens his wife = terrorist, tailgater = terrorist etc . Nightly news would be filled with terrorist acts
Should we have lite terrorist, moderate terrorist, terrorist,  bad terrorist, badder terrorist, very, very bad terrorist

You really do need to win at all costs Aarooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

What are you trying to achieve, what's your end-game?

Do we never learn.
ISIS (whatever) supporter person charged with theft, possession of a gun, threatening police, politicians and the US President by some electronic means or other is out on bail in Victoria.
Magistrate said she could not decide whether he was a threat or not so let him out on bail..............

It's now up to the authorities to make a better case and if this guy is a real threat monitor him, if he actually breaks the law they do what is necessary.

As Martin Place showed the police are capable. They were restrained until the first shot made intervention automatic. That's what we do.

Unfortunately such things as democracy, civil rights and presumption of innocence and equality bring with them risks. The law is not about one size fits all.

Once you start playing around with those fundamentals you're going down the path of these small-minded, tightRsed ratbags.
It's a slippery slope and eventually anyone who isn't nazi is FU##ED

It's now up to the authorities to make a better case and if this guy is a real threat monitor him, if he actually breaks the law they do what is necessary.

As Martin Place showed the police are capable. They were restrained until the first shot made intervention automatic. That's what we do.

Unfortunately such things as democracy, civil rights and presumption of innocence and equality bring with them risks. The law is not about one size fits all.

Once you start playing around with those fundamentals you're going down the path of these small-minded, tightRsed ratbags.
It's a slippery slope and eventually anyone who isn't nazi is FU##ED

It's now up to the authorities to make a better case and if this guy is a real threat monitor him, if he actually breaks the law they do what is necessary.

Like the Lindt Cafe you mean? If the judiciary had performed none of this (and a million other cases of one sort or another) would have ever happened.

Unfortunately such things as democracy, civil rights and presumption of innocence and equality bring with them risks. The law is not about one size fits all.

Agree that democracy has risks and as I interpret 'one size fits all' to mean 'equality' I also agree this is certainly not the case!

The time is long overdue for the courts and governments to stop playing Russian Roulette with community safety.

How many crimes are committed by people on bail or parole?

I went on a tour of the Supreme Court the other month which included some crim being sentenced.

• He had a record a mile long
• He was up for a holdup involving a firearm
• He had broken several previous community orders
• The community order people recommended against granting any further community order

Guess what he got - another community order, of course.

You speak of Nazis. This makes me wonder whether a few prisons that are not homes away from home might not be such a bad idea, providing the courts are prepared to sentence a few people to fill them.

The Conspiracy Theorist in me is starting to feel that the the GCC and USA is working together to push down the oil price with the following goals.
- Kill ISIS/ISIL cash flow as black market oil will likely have a lower profit margin.
- Add to the economic sanctions to Russia for not supporting initial attacks on Syria and their position in Ukraine.
- Improve Obama's position internally

The cover story is the GCC wanting to squeeze out US oil producers, however the US has very low taxes on petrol/diesel which makes the retail price very sensitive to the oil price and hence the lower oil fuel prices will drive economic growth across the USA, including the sale of more larger cars for which they are the main source and market for world wide and assume off-set the loss of more localised oil industry jobs.

All we had in Martin Place was another siege nothing more. These kind of things happen frequently these days but they are not lumped as Terrorist's though. It was simply the media making a mountain out of a mole hill to my way of thinking, nothing more I could not care if he held up a piece of used toilet paper to the window, he simply was a lone gun man with hostages and to most people that is simply another siege.

This makes me wonder whether a few prisons that are not homes away from home might not be such a bad idea, providing the courts are prepared to sentence a few people to fill them.

You obviously haven't been inside a prison before - I can assure you, they are not homes away from home. It's an incredible shock to discover such a huge concentration of drug-addicted, brain-injured psychotic people all in one spot... they're very disturbing places.