QUBE ordering Chinese locomotives

 
  DrSmith Train Controller






Who has made a repeat order of Chinese locomotives in Australia after they have received their first one?

"DalyWaters"


Well, SCT might count...

They ordered the four additional locomotives only after they'd seen the first six complete and running and only took delivery of them after they had thoroughly tested the first six.

While they have been far from trouble free they are still working the ore trains.

It is generally thought that Bradken will get at least two more, maybe four if they intend to run three per coal train....
Bradken would be at least generally aware of the failures occurring to SCT locomotives.
If they thought that the failures were unacceptable, they wouldn't have taken delivery of their two units.

It seems likely that QUBE will get the same type of locomotive although that isn't clear from the press release.

When first introduced in late 1968, the intercooler fans of the Alco Century 636 disintegrated, and they had serious engine failures due to the original radiator design not being adequate for Pilbara conditions. The Century 636 was the LAST Alco design after they had been building diesel locomotives for about forty years (not that many in the beginning, of course). As modified they lasted until 1994.

The Chinese are allowed the same number of failures, particularly if the locomotives prove as useful as the Century 636 did.

M636C

"M636C"
Shame on you M636C! The first two C636 units (then numberered 2006 & 7) were relatively trouble free compared to the next batch of "Australian" made locomotives. Units 6 & 7 had single bearing CHICAGO tm blowers and the radiator and after-cooler / inertial filter fans were from KOPPERS. These were never a problem. Then came the units 8 to 11 from GOODWINS and had Australian made fans and blower.....what a mess and failures galore! The fan blades were made 50mm longer for more coolant air flow but had a critical flutter going Notch 6 to 7. The blades were also sand cast not pressure die cast as per Koppers and were of a lower grade aluminium spec'n. Then....the lead inserted balance weights had holes drilled so deel that they went from the hub face into the root of the blade! Fractured blades revealed porosity and air bubbles to be rife .....they were cheaply made. After trying new blades etc and balancing problems.....and BHP/Newman trying fibre-glass blades, Ham Iron solved the problem by flying in a plane load of Koppers fans!  The tm blowers made in Aussie were replaced thru to loco 17, the last of the C636s supplied. These were a double bearing unit, had blade weld problems but ran well in the end with the HI chosen Fenner Dodge coupling provided there was some longitudinal bearing float for coupling "wind-up". 2007 ran well into the post problem era still fitted with its original Chicago blower and LORD coupling and was changed out to be "standard" at an engine change at some 600,000kms or miles. Now, locos 2008 to 2011 had Aussie air conditioners,the first in the Pilbara........also a disaster. Actually, 2010 hardly turned a wheel for its first year in service as it was scrounged for fans, blower and air conditioner items and a few other things. My first trip at HI was on 2010 going back into service in May 1969 with a modified air conditioner system...and...... to see if the drive belt would stay on and it did for at least that trip! Chinese problems now are not the best but Aussies can stuff it up too!

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  DBclass Chief Commissioner

Location: Western Australia

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/worksafe/PDF/Safety_alerts/2012/13_2012_Asbestos_gaskets__in_vehicl.pdf

I wonder what issues are hidden in the locomotives. Its never safe to assume anything.

  M636C Minister for Railways







Well, SCT might count...

..... and only took delivery of them after they had thoroughly tested the first six.


M636C

"M636C"


SCT increased their order from 6 to 10 locos in early 2011, nearly one year before they took delivery of any loco.  The first loco. rolled out of the factory in July 2011.  The increase in the order was in March 2011.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/csr-ziyang-rolls-out-australian-diesel-locomotive.html

You have no credibility.

"DalyWaters"


My apologies.

I was wrong about the date of the order. However, as your link indicated, the announcement of the second order was first made at the ceremony accepting the first locomotive at Ziyang and it was this that stuck in my mind. It is clear that the first six locomotives were ordered "off the drawing board" but the remaining four were only ordered when the design was frozen and construction had started.

I suspect that the confirmation of the second order may have occurred at the ceremony.

Both SCT and Bradken have operated the locomotives prior to taking delivery of further units, which was half of my statement you quoted. Both the operators and manufacturers gain from this. I suspect the accountants at CSR are unhappy with the cost of replacement parts under warranty by now.

While there have been many more problems than CSR expected, the locomotives are still moving the iron ore, last I heard triple headed rather than double headed. I'm sure CSR are learning fairly quickly, as are to a lesser extent, MTU.

In particular, the Chinese electrical equipment has left a lot to be desired, and it isn't clear to me why certain failures have occurred.

M636C

  M636C Minister for Railways




Shame on you M636C! The first two C636 units (then numberered 2006 & 7) were relatively trouble free compared to the next batch of "Australian" made locomotives. Units 6 & 7 had single bearing CHICAGO tm blowers and the radiator and after-cooler / inertial filter fans were from KOPPERS. These were never a problem. Then came the units 8 to 11 from GOODWINS and had Australian made fans and blower.....what a mess and failures galore! The fan blades were made 50mm longer for more coolant air flow but had a critical flutter going Notch 6 to 7. The blades were also sand cast not pressure die cast as per Koppers and were of a lower grade aluminium spec'n. Then....the lead inserted balance weights had holes drilled so deel that they went from the hub face into the root of the blade! Fractured blades revealed porosity and air bubbles to be rife .....they were cheaply made. After trying new blades etc and balancing problems.....and BHP/Newman trying fibre-glass blades, Ham Iron solved the problem by flying in a plane load of Koppers fans! The tm blowers made in Aussie were replaced thru to loco 17, the last of the C636s supplied. These were a double bearing unit, had blade weld problems but ran well in the end with the HI chosen Fenner Dodge coupling provided there was some longitudinal bearing float for coupling "wind-up". 2007 ran well into the post problem era still fitted with its original Chicago blower and LORD coupling and was changed out to be "standard" at an engine change at some 600,000kms or miles. Now, locos 2008 to 2011 had Aussie air conditioners,the first in the Pilbara........also a disaster. Actually, 2010 hardly turned a wheel for its first year in service as it was scrounged for fans, blower and air conditioner items and a few other things. My first trip at HI was on 2010 going back into service in May 1969 with a modified air conditioner system...and...... to see if the drive belt would stay on and it did for at least that trip! Chinese problems now are not the best but Aussies can stuff it up too!

"DrSmith"


For anyone new to this, DrSmith and I worked for different Pilbara Mining companies.

Dr Smith has the Hamersley view and I have the Mt Newman view....

The two railways had different operating conditions and different experiences resulted from this.

2006 and 2007 were the first Australian built Alco Centuries. I was unaware that they had more American auxiliaries than the later units, probably resulting from Goodwin realising that there were going to be a lot more units coming after the first Newman order.

I learned about the intercooler fan failures at Sydney University where the consulting work on blade design was carried out.

I don't have a gradient diagram handy, but my recollection is that prior to the Paraburdoo extension, Newman had a longer upgrade haul for loaded trains, and went substantially further into the hot dry interior than Hamersley. As a result the Newman units needed more cooling capacity, possibly realised by Goodwin before building from results with Hamersley's C628s.

Newman fitted an additional radiator core to all of their C636 units and all Newman locomotives had the larger Australian intercooler fan and I believe they all had fibreglass blades. Because of the greater stiffness and lower mass these avoided the flutter problem. I believe a cardan shaft was inserted between the engine and the traction motor blower which reduced the loadings on the blower due to alignment variation and gave a better blower life.

Newman had the same problems with air conditioners, and both companies ended up with self contained Sigma LAC 927 units that didn't rely on belt drive from the main engine.

However the basic point is that design and material deficiencies were present in local and imported locomotives and were overcome with time and experience.

M636C



  jmt Deputy Commissioner

The long delayed Qube order for Chinese locos arrived at Newcastle last weekend

Locos have apparently been moved to Goulburn

https://scontent-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/20729_1003486049679735_6607963757863610134_n.jpg?oh=ff08da887da3015c2ca60fac9747fa3b&oe=5571DDCD
  Bethungra Train Controller

The long delayed Qube order for Chinese locos arrived at Newcastle last weekend

Locos have apparently been moved to Goulburn

https://scontent-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/20729_1003486049679735_6607963757863610134_n.jpg?oh=ff08da887da3015c2ca60fac9747fa3b&oe=5571DDCD
jmt

Could these locomotives have been financed by CFCLA and therefore Goulburn being commissioned?

  WayneTedrow Junior Train Controller

Qbe own them and they are still at Carrington as of today.

John
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Could these locomotives have been financed by CFCLA and therefore Goulburn being commissioned?
Bethungra


No, they are owned by QUBE. They were held back to get rid of the asbestos.

Goulburn just seems a convenient place for QUBE to commission stuff since they have a few trains that run through there that these could get chucked on the lead for.
  Bethungra Train Controller

How many units are on order?

Are these units in the loco database?
  M636C Minister for Railways

How many units are on order?

Are these units in the loco database?
Bethungra
There are six units QBX 001 to QBX 006.

They are the same as the CSR and BK classes.

4000 HP MTU 20V4000 engine, AC traction.

M636C
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
SCT's CSRs still seem to be the second choice power for SCTs MP/PM trains.
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

Could these locomotives have been financed by CFCLA and therefore Goulburn being commissioned?

(photo deleted)
Bethungra
I trust that you obtained the permission of the copyright owner to post this photo?

My interpretation of Facebook's copyright policy is that it allows photos to be linked, not re posted
  WayneTedrow Junior Train Controller

A couple of quotes from another site that referred to the lack of use with the two BK's (currently at Greta)

"QBE now have them both (BK's) on lease contract with NSW Trains as well as 6 sitting at Ziyang (Qbx's now at Carrington) which they won't be paying for till the BK class have NSW certification"

(BK's) "It's signal compatibility issues on the NSW network why they don't have state sign off in NSW"

When told that the QBX's had arrived "OK the axle bonding mods must have been successful"

John
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I trust that you obtained the permission of the copyright owner to post this photo?

My interpretation of Facebook's copyright policy is that it allows photos to be linked, not re posted
jmt

[edit]Checked the post.  The photo is linked.[/edit]
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There are six units QBX 001 to QBX 006.

They are the same as the CSR and BK classes.

4000 HP MTU 20V4000 engine, AC traction.

M636C
M636C

Just checked the RP Database.  @Raichase has it under control.

Already loaded and looking for some photos.

https://www.railpage.com.au/locos/qbx-class-qube-logistics
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
These units have been reported to have moved from Newcastle to Yennora this morning behind an RL.
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
These units have been reported to have moved from Newcastle to Yennora this morning behind an RL.
LowndesJ515

Hi.  Thnks for the update.

Are the units ready for their first assignment?

Do you know what traffic they are likely being placed on?
  M636C Minister for Railways

Hi.  Thnks for the update.

Are the units ready for their first assignment?

Do you know what traffic they are likely being placed on?
JimYarin

Perhaps not clear from the above posts is that ARTC have issued a TOC Waiver for transport of these units from Carrington to Goulburn.

I would assume that Yennora is just an intermediate point on their journey to Goulburn.

I would think that commissioning work would be required in a workshop since locomotives are not shipped ready for use, in general.

I'd expect that they would be placed on the Sydney Harefield services first, once they have proved to be reliable.

M636C
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
Perhaps not clear from the above posts is that ARTC have issued a TOC Waiver for transport of these units from Carrington to Goulburn.

I would assume that Yennora is just an intermediate point on their journey to Goulburn.

I would think that commissioning work would be required in a workshop since locomotives are not shipped ready for use, in general.

I'd expect that they would be placed on the Sydney Harefield services first, once they have proved to be reliable.

M636C
M636C
They also need to be approved to run in NSW first not just reliable. CSR and BK's still arent approved yet.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
If the other operators do not have naw accreditation have they applied for it ?

If so and not yet granted this could be a risky move for qube ?
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
They also need to be approved to run in NSW first not just reliable. CSR and BK's still arent approved yet.
LowndesJ515

Do Qube intend running the locomotives in NSW or other states or both? It seems crazy there are not a set of national rules in place for new locos.
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Any word yet on Qube or Bradken getting any of these locos accredited to run?
  NOELWB Locomotive Driver

As DalyWaters didn't get a response and a couple of months has now passed is there any progress known on the accreditation or even use of these QUBE or BK class locomotives. Any information would be much appreciated.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

No doubt the dramas involved when you buy a new design without an existing accreditation in NSW.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Do Qube intend running the locomotives in NSW or other states or both? It seems crazy there are not a set of national rules in place for new locos.
There are national rules and agreements on all manner of things (and 'always' have been). It's just that national rules often don't apply in NSW, or WA.
Queensland is, of course, a foreign country!
One must always remember that there are armies of bureaucrats hell bent on making rules of their own...........it is no wonder that rail is not competitive.

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