C3102- Why isn't it at Thirlmere?

 
  ivahri Train Controller

Yes I know the answer to the question- because it is stored at Eveleigh... but I question why, if there is never any likelihood that it will run again, that such a historic car should not be on display at Thirlmere. It is such an important part of our Sydney commuting history that surely it deserves better than to be stuffed somewhere to be forgotten?

Just my opinion... not trying to bag anyone.

Cheers


Richard

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  Spinner5711 Train Controller

C3102 is not at Thirlmere due to space constraints.  Its features and technology are demonstrated by C3045 and T4310.

It is not forgotten where it is.  it is, however, safe.
  ssaunders Train Controller

Rumour is it's been looked at for heritage service with some other single decks.
  1084 "Cockatiel" Station Master

Location: Dapto NSW
Rumour is it's been looked at for heritage service with some other single decks.
ssaunders
I did see something about that on Transport heritage site. Is anything actually happening with that so far? It would be a huge step for heritage rail in our state to actually run a heritage electric set/locomotive.

Probably off topic but, is there a generator big enough to couple behind one of the single deck sets that will power them?
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

I did see something about that on Transport heritage site. Is anything actually happening with that so far? It would be a huge step for heritage rail in our state to actually run a heritage electric set/locomotive.

Probably off topic but, is there a generator big enough to couple behind one of the single deck sets that will power them?
1084 "Cockatiel
Quite off topic.  They run off the 1500 volt DC overhead just like 'modern' electric trains.
  1084 "Cockatiel" Station Master

Location: Dapto NSW
Quite off topic.  They run off the 1500 volt DC overhead just like 'modern' electric trains.
Spinner5711
I know that. But is there a generator that can make that and be towed behind them? Like the way Glenreagh run their tram.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I know that. But is there a generator that can make that and be towed behind them? Like the way Glenreagh run their tram.
1084 "Cockatiel
Of course you could make a generator big enough to run the train, it only has to produce 1500V at a few hundred amps. Say a 1000HP set, really not a big ask in these days of 4000HP units. It would probably look pretty much like a diesel electric locomotive. So why not save all that trouble and use a diesel electric locomotive instead?
  1084 "Cockatiel" Station Master

Location: Dapto NSW
Of course you could make a generator big enough to run the train, it only has to produce 1500V at a few hundred amps. Say a 1000HP set, really not a big ask in these days of 4000HP units. It would probably look pretty much like a diesel electric locomotive. So why not save all that trouble and use a diesel electric locomotive instead?
apw5910
To power the units or to pull the set all together?
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Why would you want to do that?  There is quite serviceable overhead wiring and each carriage retains full wiring for power collection by pantograph.  if you were that desperate to do it you could couple a diesel electric unit to it with generator output connected by some for of jumper leads to the control circuitry.  There is no need to do it.  Remember that these carriages are wide stock and cannot run outside the metropolitan area bounded by Cowan, Emu Plains, Macarthur and Waterfall.
  1084 "Cockatiel" Station Master

Location: Dapto NSW
Why would you want to do that?  There is quite serviceable overhead wiring and each carriage retains full wiring for power collection by pantograph.  if you were that desperate to do it you could couple a diesel electric unit to it with generator output connected by some for of jumper leads to the control circuitry.  There is no need to do it.  Remember that these carriages are wide stock and cannot run outside the metropolitan area bounded by Cowan, Emu Plains, Macarthur and Waterfall.
Spinner5711
Because I have heard that the government refuses to allow electric heritage stock to utilise the overhead wires.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Because I have heard that the government refuses to allow electric heritage stock to utilise the overhead wires.
1084 "Cockatiel
That is rubbish. The reason they do not run is because they do not have automatic doors and is a safety hazard.
  1084 "Cockatiel" Station Master

Location: Dapto NSW
That is rubbish. The reason they do not run is because they do not have automatic doors and is a safety hazard.
nswtrains
Ok. I didn't mean that was necessarily the reason, I just said that's what I had been told. Your answer makes sense, but doesn't that not apply to the 46, 85 and 86 class locomotives?
  ivahri Train Controller

That is rubbish. The reason they do not run is because they do not have automatic doors and is a safety hazard.
nswtrains
I thought it was because the old single decks are now out of gauge? If it was just the doors then why does Heritage Express have attendants operating the doors of old carriages manually to discourage passengers from opening them?

Or is the real reason that no-one has any great interest in operating a suburban tour using old electric stock?

As for the two carriages out at Thirlmere representing stock like C3102 I strongly disagree. The Bradfield car at Thirlmere is entirely different to C3102, while the later car is also physically different (and of no historic significance in itself) to a Leeds Forge car in C3102. And lastly why do we have a museum open to the public to exhibit our most historic pieces if the last survivor of the first electric train in NSW is held out of public view?

Cheers


Richard
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

Because I have heard that the government refuses to allow electric heritage stock to utilise the overhead wires.
1084 "Cockatiel
'The Government' or some other amorphous body does not refuse permission for straight electric, pantograph equipped vehicles to run in NSW on the electrified network.  There area few reasons why none are running.  
1) No market for them.  By that, I mean that it is very difficult to sell seats on electric trains.  Forget you, I and others who frequent this place, to run them, 'the collective we' need general public support via ticket sales.
2) Acceptable evidence of maintenance.  'We' need to be able to demonstrate to teh regulatory authorities that teh 46/85/86/71 class units and/or power cars are maintained to a required level.
3) Actual cost of running.  46/85/86/71 class units and/or power cars are charged usual track access fee and then they are charged an overhead access fee.  At least this was the case when 4638 and 8646 were stalking teh electrified network.

Wide bodied stock can still run in teh suburban area, it just has to slow down a heck of a lot through platforms because teh track has been slewed closer to platforms.
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

As for the two carriages out at Thirlmere representing stock like C3102 I strongly disagree. The Bradfield car at Thirlmere is entirely different to C3102, while the later car is also physically different (and of no historic significance in itself) to a Leeds Forge car in C3102. And lastly why do we have a museum open to the public to exhibit our most historic pieces if the last survivor of the first electric train in NSW is held out of public view?

Cheers


Richard
ivahri
I agree that C3045 and T4310 are not the same as C3102.  They do represent the technology and the appearance of C3102 which to the public is sufficient.

Why have C3102 not on display?  Like I said, space.  C3102 exists now as an operational exhibit along with the rest of the retained electric multiple fleet.  While it hasn't been out'n'about in recent years, its very existence makes it easy to return it to heritage focused traffic for everyone to enjoy directly and by stimulating their imagination.
  ivahri Train Controller

When was the last time C3102 ran as part of a set? Do you know of any plans to do so? If so when? Sorry, I find it very hard to believe that C3102 is "operational". And I'm sorry but if you think that those who visit Thirlmere think that any single deck suburban car is the same as any other then please don't treat me and those other unwashed enthusiasts who pay their money to see our rail history like mugs. Someone else has already pointed out the space excuse is just that... there is space for C3102 at Thirlmere. It deserves to be on public display.



Richard
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Could someone tell us factually what is the significance of C3102, compared to.... others.
  ivahri Train Controller

C3102 is the last remaining member of Sydney's first electric train which ran from Oatley to St James on March 1 1926.


Richard
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
So, to be sure it is the only single deck unit ? or are there other units around ? When others say TrainWorks already have representitive units, what are they talking of ? Not everyone is familiar with Sydney electrics - so a good detailes reply would assist to know why some consider this unit worthy compared to what is already there.....

Regards,
David Head
  ivahri Train Controller

David,

There are multiple references on the subject and I'm not in a position to do the subject justice in trying to paraphrase them here.

An overview of Sydney trains can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_rolling_stock_in_New_South_Wales

The Heritage Report reference on C3102 can be found here:

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/heritageapp/ViewHeritageItemDetails.aspx?ID=4807163

There is also an excellent reference on the SETS website:

http://www.sets.org.au/fleet/index.php?id=sds

Key differences between C3102 as delivered when compared to the later cars:

* Manufactured in the UK by Leeds Forge, then knocked down for delivery, and then put together by Clyde Engineering
* Delivered with double end doors, not the single end doors which later carriages came with.
* Had cross seating in the end vestibules rather than longitudinal seating (modified for longitudinal later).

However the critical historical significance of C3102 is its association with the first electric train service in Sydney (refer to the Heritage Report which also states that). The later "Standard" car at Thirlmere may be physically nearly identical but it lacks the historical significance of C3102.

I hope this helps David.


Richard
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Richard, it does help for us who have no idea.

What's the official position of Train Works on it?

Regards,
David Head
  ivahri Train Controller

I have no idea David... I was just floating the idea here. I like what has been achieved at Train Works so I'm not trying to cause anyone any grief, however I just thought it was a bit strange that if there is little chance of an asset ever being made operational (and the Heritage Report for C3102 states that it is NOT operational) then unless there is some other reason it belongs at Thirlmere or in another publicly accessible museum. I'm sure it is safe at Eveleigh... but Eveleigh is not a museum where the public can see it.


Richard
  s_walker Locomotive Driver

Some single deck electrics will be on display at Central over the June long weekend. 3102 won't be there.

http://www.transportheritagensw.com.au/#!transport-heritage-expo/c27a

Steven

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