Electrification of V/Line lines

 
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Electrification of V/Line lines for example:

• Melbourne to Geelong
• Melbourne to Kyneton
• Melbourne to Bacchus Marsh
• Melbourne to Warragul

Electrification  V/Line lines will have benefits:
• frequent services
• more capacity
• Ballarat, Bendigo and Traralgon - less stops
• better two tier system
• better stopping patterns


Better three tier train system for example:

1st tier system: Country service: Bendigo stopping all stations to Kyneton and express to Footscray and then Southern Cross - not having stop at 6 stations between Kyneton to Southern Cross .

2nd tier country/outer suburban services :Kyneton stopping all stations to Watergardens and then limited stops to Flinders street. 20 - 30 mins part

3rd tier: Metro style service: Watergardens stopping all stations to the city. 10mins part


An example of good Electric train services over 50km:
  • Mandurah railway line - train nearly 15 mins apart in day time  peak 10 mins part
  • Gold Coast Line -  7 to 15 mins in peak outside peak 30mins

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  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
An example of good Electric train services over 50km:
"melbtrip"

Sydney to Lithgow.
Sydney to (nearly) Newcastle.
Sydney to Wollongong and beyond.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
There are no circumstances in the foreseable future that's likely to see electrification go past either Sunbury or Pakenham. So those two you can forget about.

As for Bacchus Marsh, there is some merit in that, although I doubt we will see electrification as far as Bacchus Marsh. It will have to wait until after Melbourne Metro has been completed, so if we are lucky, the line as far as Melton may get both duplicated and electrified within the next 25 years,  

Geelong is not likely to happen until after Melton has been done.

A lot of the service levels you refer to are pretty much going to be available now with the new timetable. Geelong will have 20 minute frequency, and Bacchus Marsh is getting 30 minute frequency, Electrification isn't required to provide a decent service. I wouldn't think Kyneton or Warragul would get the passenger numbers to justify regular dedicated services. Yes during peak periods these lines are very busy, but that's not enough to justify the costs of implementing a scheme such as the one you propose.

To get an idea just how expensive it would be to electrify just the Geelong line for instance, look at the cost of sparking the section between Watergardens and Sunbury (several hundred million, I'm sure someone more knowledgable than myself will have the exact figure), and then consider that is a short 15km stretch, compared with the 70+km stretch that is the entirety of the Geelong line, let alone every other line you refer to. The total costs for all lines would be in the billions. Not going to happen.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Geelong line electrification is the only one that is even remotely being considered. The grades of the Ballarat line work in favour of electrification, but the extra distance and lower patronage compared to Geelong work against it. Melton is a definite, but that's almost an outer suburban extension - as would Wallan. Warragul? Probably not.

The Sunbury extension demonstrated the pitfalls of 1500VDC electrification - 3 substations for a 15 km, two station extension that only gets a 40 minute off-peak frequency. Melton electrification might not end up being done at 1500VDC, nor Wallan or Geelong.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
There are no circumstances in the foreseable future that's likely to see electrification go past either Sunbury or Pakenham. So those two you can forget about.

As for Bacchus Marsh, there is some merit in that, although I doubt we will see electrification as far as Bacchus Marsh. It will have to wait until after Melbourne Metro has been completed, so if we are lucky, the line as far as Melton may get both duplicated and electrified within the next 25 years,  

Geelong is not likely to happen until after Melton has been done.

A lot of the service levels you refer to are pretty much going to be available now with the new timetable. Geelong will have 20 minute frequency, and Bacchus Marsh is getting 30 minute frequency, Electrification isn't required to provide a decent service. I wouldn't think Kyneton or Warragul would get the passenger numbers to justify regular dedicated services. Yes during peak periods these lines are very busy, but that's not enough to justify the costs of implementing a scheme such as the one you propose.

To get an idea just how expensive it would be to electrify just the Geelong line for instance, look at the cost of sparking the section between Watergardens and Sunbury (several hundred million, I'm sure someone more knowledgable than myself will have the exact figure), and then consider that is a short 15km stretch, compared with the 70+km stretch that is the entirety of the Geelong line, let alone every other line you refer to. The total costs for all lines would be in the billions. Not going to happen.
Gman_86
I totally forgot, but yes, pretty much the whole Geelong line will need electrification with the RRL coming in.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
To get an idea just how expensive it would be to electrify just the Geelong line for instance, look at the cost of sparking the section between Watergardens and Sunbury (several hundred million, I'm sure someone more knowledgable than myself will have the exact figure), and then consider that is a short 15km stretch, compared with the 70+km stretch that is the entirety of the Geelong line, let alone every other line you refer to. The total costs for all lines would be in the billions. Not going to happen.
Gman_86
Unlike Sunbury, some of the lines being discussed are too long for ordinary EMU stock (e.g. the need for onboard toilets, which current V/Line services have), which would mean new rolling stock as well.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Geelong line electrification is the only one that is even remotely being considered. The grades of the Ballarat line work in favour of electrification, but the extra distance and lower patronage compared to Geelong work against it. Melton is a definite, but that's almost an outer suburban extension - as would Wallan. Warragul? Probably not.

The Sunbury extension demonstrated the pitfalls of 1500VDC electrification - 3 substations for a 15 km, two station extension that only gets a 40 minute off-peak frequency. Melton electrification might not end up being done at 1500VDC, nor Wallan or Geelong.
LancedDendrite
Melton will probably be done in 1500VDC in order to integrate it with the existing suburban network at Sunshine. Wallan will probably also be done at 1500VDC to avoid having to convert the Upfield line.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

a lot of dreamers on this post.......
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

a lot of dreamers on this post.......
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Melton will probably be done in 1500VDC in order to integrate it with the existing suburban network at Sunshine. Wallan will probably also be done at 1500VDC to avoid having to convert the Upfield line.
railblogger
Melton electrification will be essentially a 'new' line for the suburban network, so it will need new rollingstock that can be specified as dual-voltage if necessary. Likewise for Wallan. I would not be surprised if the specification for the Comeng replacement (Next Generation Train) will include dual-voltage capability or at least an easy upgrade path for it.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Just one question to the original poster. Where the hell does s/he think a state government could find the multi-squillions of dollars required to do this? Rolling Eyes

It would be political suicide for a state government to take money away from:
  • Schools
  • Police
  • Roads
  • Hospitals
  • Social programmes like assistance for the mentally ill and homeless
  • Any other area of state government expenditure

... in order to pay for this really daft idea.

Or doe s/he think the a government minister can just wave a magic wand and billions of dollars will magically appear? Question
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Just one question to the original poster. Where the hell does s/he think a state government could find the multi-squillions of dollars required to do this? Rolling Eyes

It would be political suicide for a state government to take money away from:
  • Schools
  • Police
  • Roads
  • Hospitals
  • Social programmes like assistance for the mentally ill and homeless
  • Any other area of state government expenditure

... in order to pay for this really daft idea.

Or doe s/he think the a government minister can just wave a magic wand and billions of dollars will magically appear? Question
Bogong
@ Bogong

Why do you think that all infrastructure projects means that money is diverted away from Schools, Hospitals etc? That is no more true than the previous Government was going to divert money to pay for the East-West Link costing $7 Billion and upwards

The Sunbury Electrification cost $270 Million in 2008. I would say those lines to electrify using DC would be about $5 - $7 Billion.

I do agree with you, its a daft idea.

Michael
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Just one question to the original poster. Where the hell does s/he think a state government could find the multi-squillions of dollars required to do this? Rolling Eyes

It would be political suicide for a state government to take money away from:
  • Schools
  • Police
  • Roads
  • Hospitals
  • Social programmes like assistance for the mentally ill and homeless
  • Any other area of state government expenditure

... in order to pay for this really daft idea.

Or doe s/he think the a government minister can just wave a magic wand and billions of dollars will magically appear? Question
@ Bogong

Why do you think that all infrastructure projects means that money is diverted away from Schools, Hospitals etc? That is no more true than the previous Government was going to divert money to pay for the East-West Link costing $7 Billion and upwards

The Sunbury Electrification cost $270 Million in 2008. I would say those lines to electrify using DC would be about $5 - $7 Billion.

I do agree with you, its a daft idea.

Michael
mejhammers1


The difference here is a big chunk of The E-W link was to be paid for by the Feds, they won't be likely to shill out for what is essentially a rail service upgrade. Similarly another big chunk of the E-W link was to be funded through a public-private partnership, there is no incentive for any private consortium, or corporation to seek a public-private partnership when there is no money to be made out of the project upon completion (unlike a tollroad, which is essentially a license to print money for whomever owns the rights). So yes a very daft idea.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

The difference here is a big chunk of The E-W link was to be paid for by the Feds, they won't be likely to shill out for what is essentially a rail service upgrade. Similarly another big chunk of the E-W link was to be funded through a public-private partnership, there is no incentive for any private consortium, or corporation to seek a public-private partnership when there is no money to be made out of the project upon completion (unlike a tollroad, which is essentially a license to print money for whomever owns the rights). So yes a very daft idea.
Gman_86
A Tollroad is a license to print money in this country because Governments here guarantees that any revenue shortfalls would be met from the Public Purse.

Michael
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Wallan will probably also be done at 1500VDC to avoid having to convert the Upfield line.
railblogger
Have I missed something, has Upfield to Somerton been electrified?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Have I missed something, has Upfield to Somerton been electrified?
Camster
It hasn't been rebuilt at all, but it has been planned to reinstate that part of the line and electrify it.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Wallan will probably also be done at 1500VDC to avoid having to convert the Upfield line.
Have I missed something, has Upfield to Somerton been electrified?
Camster
Re-instating Upfield to Somerton is fairly high up on the PTV priority list as far as I can gather, unlike some of the halfbaked ideas that appear on these sites.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
The old per-way north of Upfield is in a very sorry state.  Big bucks to upgrade, duplicate and electrify.  It would be interesting to see some actual PTV timelines, projections and costings.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Country electrifications are usually driven by steep gradients and heavy freight tonnages  NOT passenger services.

Traralgon was electrified in the 1950's for big briquette tonnages .  In mid 1980 electric substations and overhead required renewal .  this cost was totally avoided by removal of teh Gippsland electrification. All existing passenger and freight traffic was handled by the existing diesel locos .  Sparse capex better spent  elsewhere , and maintenance costs of overhead totally saved .  

Geelong would cost over $ 1bn probably and the tunnel presents clearance problems too . Again huge capex for what gain, and increased costs as overhead ansd substations incurr on going maintenance costs .

Extend existing suburban electrifications from  Werribee to Wyndamvale,  Sunshine to Melton,  Craigieburn to  Wallan and  South Morang  (really Mill Park) to Mernda  yes, but beyond that  "Tell em their dreamin "  Daryl Kerrigan .
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The old per-way north of Upfield is in a very sorry state.  Big bucks to upgrade, duplicate and electrify.  It would be interesting to see some actual PTV timelines, projections and costings.
Lad_Porter

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm,

Just some day dreaming....................

The distance is only 2.4 kilometres, the right of way is there and unobstructed, with a width of around 28 metres, so theres plenty of room. There's only a single level crossing and the line is not used. A couple of days to remove the existing track so all earthworks and things like overhead construction will not be obstructed.
No major construction required except for the level crossing and one could probably bypass that with a road comming up from Glenelg st, which would open up that area quite a bit.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Post script to the above,

An overpass will be required at the northern end to bring the SG over the BG, there appears to be plenty of room for that though.
Note no stations will be required.
  chonnaigh Station Master

Location: Vic
For what its worth, I use the Geelong service very often and I can tell you that an awful lot of travellers (self included) would rather not travel on Metro! We like our trains just fine thanks.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
• Ballarat, Bendigo and Traralgon - less stops
melbtrip

Yep, classically flawed Victorian thinking.  

What exactly is the difference that magically allows such a change which can't be achieved now.

The decision to base service patterns and vehicle classes on the arbitrary distinction between Metro/spark and Vline/diesel would be considered laughable abroard - such as running high capacity metro stock on an all stations service to places like Pakenham.

On actual electrification, Geelong might be done as 25kVAC since it is totally segregated, but there is no need to complete any other regional lines at the same time.  The same sort of rollingstock that would serve Geelong should be serving places like Pakenham, Cranbourne, Frankston.  It's cognitive dissonance to suggest Geelong should have comfortable services with express running but places with longer commuting times are stuck with slow, uncomfortable metro stock simply by virtue of being under wires.


Melton electrification will be essentially a 'new' line for the suburban network, so it will need new rollingstock that can be specified as dual-voltage if necessary. Likewise for Wallan. I would not be surprised if the specification for the Comeng replacement (Next Generation Train) will include dual-voltage capability or at least an easy upgrade path for it.
LancedDendrite

The metro network will always be DC (except possibly once quadding is complete and the long suburban runs are finally freed from metro traffic) and so will Melton - no need for dual voltage as one would expect quad to the RRL junction (hence no interaction with Geelong services).

  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
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Yep, classically flawed Victorian thinking.  

What exactly is the difference that magically allows such a change which can't be achieved now.

The decision to base service patterns and vehicle classes on the arbitrary distinction between Metro/spark and Vline/diesel would be considered laughable abroard - such as running high capacity metro stock on an all stations service to places like Pakenham.

On actual electrification, Geelong might be done as 25kVAC since it is totally segregated, but there is no need to complete any other regional lines at the same time.  The same sort of rollingstock that would serve Geelong should be serving places like Pakenham, Cranbourne, Frankston.  It's cognitive dissonance to suggest Geelong should have comfortable services with express running but places with longer commuting times are stuck with slow, uncomfortable metro stock simply by virtue of being under wires.


The metro network will always be DC (except possibly once quadding is complete and the long suburban runs are finally freed from metro traffic) and so will Melton - no need for dual voltage as one would expect quad to the RRL junction (hence no interaction with Geelong services).

ZH836301
Aslo you can have electrification with 1500dc like they do in Sydney:

For example Geelong Line:
Southern Cross, Footscray, Sunshine, Tarneit,Wyndham Vale, future station at Manor rd, Little River , Lara,Corio,North Shore, North Geelong,Geelong, South Geelong,Marshall and Waurn Ponds.

Personally I do not see why they should run a train every 10 mins to Pakenham, instead they should run a metro style train to Dandenong and same time Pakenham can have this:
Flinders Street, Richmond,Caulfield, Dandenong and then stopping all stations to Pakenham ( may be extend the services to Traralgon )
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Electrification is about saving money long term - you won't achieve that using 1500VDC.

What has Manor Rd got to do with anything?  There is nothing there.  More redundant thinking.

Personally I do not see why they should run a train every 10 mins to Pakenham, instead they should run a metro style train toDandenong and same time Pakenham can have this:
Flinders Street, Richmond,Caulfield, Dandenong and then stopping all stations to Pakenham ( may be extend the services to Traralgon )
melbtrip
Only thing you've said in this thread that makes any sense.

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