Question about 3000 class railcars

 
  ARG706 Chief Commissioner

Location: SA
Howdy

I have a question about the pox boxes. Where are the engines in these exactly? I've noticed that it's louder in some positions than the others, but nonetheless, I'm curious to know.

Any detailed info would be appreciated.

Thanks

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  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Howdy

I have a question about the pox boxes. Where are the engines in these exactly? I've noticed that it's louder in some positions than the others, but nonetheless, I'm curious to know.

Any detailed info would be appreciated.

Thanks
ARG706
Wikipedia says :-
Each railcar features an underfloor mounted Mercedes Benz 475 hp V12 twin turbo direct injection diesel engine, operating at a constant 1500 RPM, which is directly coupled to a Reliance 400kVA alternator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3000_class_railcar
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The diesel engine is under the floor, between the bogies but closer to one end instead of in the centre. The engine noise will obviously be greater at the opposite end, but still quite loud by international standards.

On the 31xx variant, the engine is mounted at the non-driving end of the centre section. Obviously this does not provide a useful clue for the 30xx variant with cabs at both ends, the best external cue is that the roof-mounted equipment (including the exhaust portal) is a bit closer to the end with the engine.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
As an aside, it seems unlikely now that any 3000's will be converted to operate exclusively on overhead power - or is that still on the cards?
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
As an aside, it seems unlikely now that any 3000's will be converted to operate exclusively on overhead power - or is that still on the cards?
"don_dunstan"

That is still on the cards as once the Gawler Line is electrified there will be a push to electrify as it is cheaper to run and maintain.
  fairmont1998 Beginner

The diesel engine in the 3000/3100 class is always at the A end along with the trailer bogie. The motor bogie is at the B end.
  Walter Junior Train Controller

Location: Lurking, but not very well
One way to find the engine from inside is to look for the trap door used for maintenance access. It's on the floor, very close to the rear (A-end) doors. You can see it clearly in this photo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3000_class_railcar#/media/File:Refurbished_3000_railcar_1.jpg
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

As an aside, it seems unlikely now that any 3000's will be converted to operate exclusively on overhead power - or is that still on the cards?
don_dunstan
I imagine that it will be back on the agenda some time next year.

All of the A-City units have now arrived and should be commissioned into service within a few weeks. Once all of the remedial work on the A-City fleet (upgrade to the current version with stable flooring, quiet air conditioning, quieter horn that can only be heard three suburbs away, and the ETCS kit) is closer to completion we can expect to hear Bombardier making noises about job losses and keeping skilled workers employed.

That is still on the cards as once the Gawler Line is electrified there will be a push to electrify as it is cheaper to run and maintain.
nm39
Do you have access to a cost analysis which shows that it would be a viable project, i.e. that the savings made would recover the full cost of the capital expenditure including interest repayments?

I only ask because private operators in Europe have rejected such conversions of DEMUs as unviable even when considering much newer DEMUs with a greater proportion of their service life remaining.

I would advocate leaving electrification north of Adelaide until the DEMUs are approaching life expiry in 2025-2030, and between now and then spending money on other capital projects such as Henley-Airport-City-Norwood-Magill light rail and light rail through North Adelaide to Prospect or Pooraka
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Justapax

Where else uses DEMU to which you refer to as not worth converting?

You make a good point about using the money elsewhere and probably in electorates with more return for the ruling party (I dare not call them a Government).

The unfinished Gawler electrification is a festering sore much like the one-way southern Expressway, a political embarrassment even if justifiable on thr practical grounds you expressed.

From what I can see of it the 3000 DERMs are readily convertible and as your say have a long life ahead of them in whatever form. The question would be which conversion option to chose, either take out all the present electrics and put in new convertors capable of single phase input or include a motor generator set to provide 3 phase to the present convertors. In the latter option the diesel engine would be replaced by an electric motor running on single phase supplied directly from the traction step-down transformer.

Ian
  witsend Chief Commissioner

Location: Front RH Seat of a School Bus
I maybe wrong, but in my opinion, I don't think they will be converted to AC Traction. They are far more flexible in their in their current configuration. With a nominal 15 years of life remaining, I still think that converting them would actually not be such a good idea. For starters, new traction gear, new controls, new transformer, removal of the components and then making it all work seemlessly, could actually prove problematic particularly that they are 20 years old now. In certain cases, it may actually decrease the reliability of the unit. There is a point where the conversion may prove economical, especially if the diesel price continue to rise. In respect, I'd expect to see Gawler Electrified with selected services running as electric sets, similar to the 2000 class operating selected services.

Again, I'm no expert, and I hope I am wrong and the many talented engineers are able to work out the issues to prove it is possible and cost effective. Personally, I'd be looking at your Series II 4000 class electrics to be purchased. We have a cost of $10,000,000 for a new 3 Car Spark with 40 years life. Arithmetically, The coversion would need to cost less than $3m per 3 car set to be cheaper than buying a new spark, with a 15 year life remaining, less the savings generated by not running the diesel and add the cost of the electricity drawn.

PS. I'm being very simplistic with maths here on purpose. I know there is a lot more to it.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
From what has been made available about these cars is that essentially they are an electric car but have there own power source on board the diesel motor and generator. Changing them to full electric was designed into them so it is virtually just a matter of dropping out the motor and generator sets along with the fuel tanks and radiators etc and putting in replacement transformers or what ever to operate in full electric mode as well as adding a pantograph to the roof.  Well that is what the two manufacturer's stated about these cars anyway when they were ordered.
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
From what has been made available about these cars is that essentially they are an electric car but have there own power source on board the diesel motor and generator. Changing them to full electric was designed into them so it is virtually just a matter of dropping out the motor and generator sets along with the fuel tanks and radiators etc and putting in replacement transformers or what ever to operate in full electric mode as well as adding a pantograph to the roof.  Well that is what the two manufacturer's stated about these cars anyway when they were ordered.
David Peters
DP, please stop pedalling this furphy, they share a common body shell with the Melbourne electrics but they weren't designed for nor built for conversion to EMU's.
Sure they could be converted, just like you could convert a Jumbo or a 900 class diesel, but at great effort and expense.

Wayne
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The best way to turn a poxbox into a spark is as hosk states. Send the poxes to Sims, buy the materials back and build sparks from the recycled pox material.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

It won't happen.

The price tag on a per-car basis would be roughly the same as buying new-build EMUs built to modern standards, but good for only 10-15 years of service. It would therefore be even cheaper to use the DEMUs until they are life expired, and then buy new EMUs in 10-15 years from now - ideally at the same time as expanding the fleet to cater for future extensions to Buckland Park and Aldinga which will be necessary to move Adelaide on from the 1960s-like dependence on the private car that's holding back our standard of living.

If it's not viable for the "eVoyager" proposal in the UK which involved the proposed conversion of 200 km/h DEMUs into bi-mode units, it certainly won't be viable for our DEMUs that pootle around at less than half that speed.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
All of the A-City units have now arrived and should be commissioned into service within a few weeks. Once all of the remedial work on the A-City fleet (upgrade to the current version with stable flooring, quiet air conditioning, quieter horn that can only be heard three suburbs away, and the ETCS kit) is closer to completion we can expect to hear Bombardier making noises about job losses and keeping skilled workers employed.
justapassenger
They are very busy at Dandenong apparently with the E-class trams and extra centre carriages for Vlocity but I'm sure they will be trying to persuade the SA DoT to buy more A-City. Perhaps our new clean 'n green PM will come to the rescue with his agenda for public transport - as spelled out in the media this week.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The best way to turn a poxbox into a spark is as hosk states. Send the poxes to Sims, buy the materials back and build sparks from the recycled pox material.
Aaron
IN all seriousness would stripping the diesel plant and conversion to overhead AC power cost that much? More than replacement cost with a new A-City per carriage?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The best way to turn a poxbox into a spark is as hosk states. Send the poxes to Sims, buy the materials back and build sparks from the recycled pox material.
IN all seriousness would stripping the diesel plant and conversion to overhead AC power cost that much? More than replacement cost with a new A-City per carriage?
The costs you're looking at for a rebuild (not a 'conversion' as such) would be...
  • A bucketload of R&D work spent on a bespoke electrical package (to reuse as many DEMU components as possible) or lesser amount of R&D expenditure and a full replacement which would reuse fewer parts. A new-build EMU would just use whatever off-the-shelf gear that manufacturer uses all over the world, the R&D costs are spread out over many hundreds of units instead of being repeated for every bespoke micro-fleets.
  • Lots of labour spent on pulling apart the vehicles before any work even begins on installing the upgrade - money that simply isn't spent when building a new fleet from scratch
  • Production of the required components.
  • Lots of labour installing the new electric drivetrain package and other electrical components.
  • Testing and accreditation.

If, as the 'proposals' from 2009 suggested, they would be done as 2-car units, they would not be cheaper than a new-build 3-car or 4-car EMU simply because you would have one set of all those technical components for every two cars instead of one for every three or four.

Is all that going to come in at less than the difference in operating costs of diesel-electric vs electric (keeping in mind that the maintenance costs of a bespoke micro-fleet will be greater than an EMU fleet using off-the-shelf gear) over the remaining 10-15 years of service they have left? Hell no!

All of the A-City units have now arrived and should be commissioned into service within a few weeks. Once all of the remedial work on the A-City fleet (upgrade to the current version with stable flooring, quiet air conditioning, quieter horn that can only be heard three suburbs away, and the ETCS kit) is closer to completion we can expect to hear Bombardier making noises about job losses and keeping skilled workers employed.
They are very busy at Dandenong apparently with the E-class trams and extra centre carriages for Vlocity but I'm sure they will be trying to persuade the SA DoT to buy more A-City. Perhaps our new clean 'n green PM will come to the rescue with his agenda for public transport - as spelled out in the media this week.
There's no reason that future EMU orders would necessarily need to have the body shells and assembly done in Melbourne.

Mike Rann isn't in charge any more, a future SA government could well decide to order from someone else. Unless someone else offers to subsidise the Victorian option, it would be in the state's interests to go with a supplier who might build the body shells overseas, but spend some money in SA with locally-sourced components and final assembly.

This is the approach taken by Siemens, for example. They build all their Desiro City body shells (for Thameslink and South West Trains) in Germany but they have a significantly higher proportion of British content (by manufacturing value) than Bombardier does with their 'Made in Britain' Electrostar/Aventra product where only the body shell is made in Derby with everything else coming from overseas.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
As long as they don't end up going with two completely different manufacturers/train types like the Melbourne disaster of Siemens/Alstom with the trains and Siemens/Alstom and (now) Bombardier with the trams. Although maybe it could end up being one of those funny Adelaide oddities where every line has a different type of train...
  XPT Adelaide Beginner

Gawler Central Line and Outer Harbour Line should be electrified asap, it will help regenerate the northern suburbs.

The 3000s belong on the scrapheap. Wink
  Smacks Station Master

The 3000s belong on the scrapheap. Wink
XPT Adelaide
What's with the 3000 hate. Sure they are boring but as a DEMU do they not suit the needs of the network. I think they do. No need to spend the money replacing something that isn't broken.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

The 3000s belong on the scrapheap. Wink
What's with the 3000 hate. Sure they are boring but as a DEMU do they not suit the needs of the network. I think they do. No need to spend the money replacing something that isn't broken.
Smacks
Exactly.

Spend the money now on doing things that improve transport in Adelaide and set people free from car slavery now, and replace the DEMUs when they are life expired in 10-15 years. Much better result than replacing perfectly fine DEMUs early and waiting until later to provide genuine transport improvements.

As long as they don't end up going with two completely different manufacturers/train types like the Melbourne disaster of Siemens/Alstom with the trains and Siemens/Alstom and (now) Bombardier with the trams. Although maybe it could end up being one of those funny Adelaide oddities where every line has a different type of train...
don_dunstan
So long as the specifications are done right, there's no problem with getting trains from different manufacturers to talk to each other. It's an excellent chance to go one up on the Vics who couldn't get it right!

It would be worth considering 4-car EMUs for the second fleet because many of the platforms north of the city are only that long, unlike the Seaford line where only a couple of stations are short enough for 2x3-car EMU consists to use SDO on one or two cars at the back.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

Once Gawler is electrified, the most cost-effective option would be to use the 3000 class in DEMU mode only for peak services.  This would provide the operating cost savings electric operation without the capital cost of DEMU conversion, while also allowing the flexibility of using the DEMU's on the other lines. There would be enough 4000 class to cover all inter-peak, night and weekend services with 4000 class units from the Seaford line. The Gawler Line interpeak timetable requires 8 train-sets.  As I understand it, there are 22 EMU sets of which 8 are required for the interpeak Seaford timetable, a further 5 for the peak Seaford timetable, 2 for Tonsley, 4 for Salisbury and 3 spare. So by using up to 4 of the 5 Seaford peaks on the Gawler interpeak service, there would be enough trainsets to run all Gawler line services apart from peaks. However during peaks most services would need to be provided by DEMU's. Swinging voters in the southern suburbs wouldn't be happy if the electric services they have become used to were changed back to DEMU's.

Whether more of the 4000 series are ordered would depend on the growth rate of rail patronage in Adelaide.
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

Buying more 4000 class trains or an alternative is the best option, Seaford and Tonsley need 15 trains in peak, Galwer would need at least 15, so an order of 10 or 12 trains would be need to provide an all electric service
The 3000 trains would increase frequency and carriages on the Outer Harbor / Grange and Belair Lines,  no more hourly night services and Belair could get 20 min off peak frequency. Outer Harbor would get 3 car services.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

Re increasing the number of 3000 series allocated to the Outer Harbour line, this line is the silent performer of the Adelaide system, with an 8% increase in patronage 2014/15 relative to 2013/14. Prior to electrification of the Seaford line I believe its total patronage was nearly 2/3 that of the Noarlunga line.  This is despite having no feeder bus routes, no major destinations along the route ( such as Colonades on the Seaford line), and only half-hourly inter-peak services beyond Woodville. So the potential for growth with improvements such as better inter-peak frequencies should be good.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
From what has been made available about these cars is that essentially they are an electric car but have there own power source on board the diesel motor and generator. Changing them to full electric was designed into them so it is virtually just a matter of dropping out the motor and generator sets along with the fuel tanks and radiators etc and putting in replacement transformers or what ever to operate in full electric mode as well as adding a pantograph to the roof.  Well that is what the two manufacturer's stated about these cars anyway when they were ordered.
DP, please stop pedalling this furphy, they share a common body shell with the Melbourne electrics but they weren't designed for nor built for conversion to EMU's.
Sure they could be converted, just like you could convert a Jumbo or a 900 class diesel, but at great effort and expense.

Wayne
hosk1956
What Furphy Mr Hoskins they are essentially an electric railcar that for the time being that has to have its own Diesel generator under the floor. Everything nearly on the cars in the way of propulsion is by electrical means using a Reliance Alternator SDGB3107-4, 400Kva, 660V through a Stromberg type 5775974-7 transmission/rectifier Inverter unit, traction power 320Kw, Braking power 720Kw.

The engines are Mercedes OM444 LA V12 turbocharged- designated as a MTU 12V 183TE12 in the Clyde built railcars anyway. Output power setting - 354 Kw at 1500 rpm.

Traction motors bogie fitted are Stromberg 3 phase 4 pole squirrel cage induction motors. 130Kw 660 v.

All this in on page 2 of a Clyde Engineering Technical training course booklet on these railcars I have in my possession.


These cars are diesel electric not diesel hydraulic! If they were not to be easily converted do you actually think that they would have actually suggested converting them in the first place! You notice that all the voltages and power etc used on these cars is virtually standard off the shelf type of stuff, so that makes it a lot easier to convert them rather than having to change all the wiring etc because they used some weird frequency or voltage!

I stand by what I said like it or lump it!

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