Model Railway clubs not having public liability insurance

 
  Flatop Deputy Commissioner

Location: Some where in a Cab
We attend quite a few shows as traders.It is getting ridiculously that traders have to get their own insurance. How can clubs operate an exhibition and expect traders tocome pay for stand fees then put the cost of public liabilities on top of this. Got an email tonight about this.

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  Hendo Deputy Commissioner

We attend quite a few shows as traders.It is getting ridiculously that traders have to get their own insurance. How can clubs operate an exhibition and expect traders tocome pay for stand fees then put the cost of public liabilities on top of this. Got an email tonight about this.
Flatop
Sounds pretty rude given traders attendance benefits the clubs through fees and higher attendance. Even if they bumped the fees, to cover the exhibition/shows public liability insurance, it would probably be cheaper than the collective cost of individual traders taking out insurance. Do they insist individual exhibitors have their own PLI? If not there is a case of double standards.


Cheers,
Hendo
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
PLI is a big problem, the hosting organization of the show must have its own PLI.

Even with that however, they cannot assume your risk as a trader or exhibitor, sensible exhibitors should either have PLI if they are a club, or be very sure that their household contents cover will insure them.

Traders are just plain crazy if they do not have a PLI policy of their own (or make damn sure their household or other business insurance has them covered).
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
PLI is a big problem, the hosting organization of the show must have its own PLI.

Even with that however, they cannot assume your risk as a trader or exhibitor, sensible exhibitors should either have PLI if they are a club, or be very sure that their household contents cover will insure them.

Traders are just plain crazy if they do not have a PLI policy of their own (or make damn sure their household or other business insurance has them covered).
Aaron
No need if you are a limited liability company.
  Kevin Martin Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
PLI is a big problem, the hosting organization of the show must have its own PLI.

Even with that however, they cannot assume your risk as a trader or exhibitor, sensible exhibitors should either have PLI if they are a club, or be very sure that their household contents cover will insure them.

Traders are just plain crazy if they do not have a PLI policy of their own (or make damn sure their household or other business insurance has them covered).
No need if you are a limited liability company.
TheBlacksmith
Sounds like foolish advice to me. I guess it depends on the nature of the business, but anyone who attends customers premises to carry out work, i.e. tradies, needs to consider the fact that almost all commercial entities, wouldn't let them through the door, if they knew were uninsured.
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

Every trader that attends a market must have PL insurance.
I see a model train exhibition with traders in attendance as no different.
If your stall collapses for some unforeseen reason and squashes a small child then you will lose your home and anything else you own if you don't have the correct insurance
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Every trader that attends a market must have PL insurance.
I see a model train exhibition with traders in attendance as no different.
If your stall collapses for some unforeseen reason and squashes a small child then you will lose your home and anything else you own if you don't have the correct insurance
Showtime
Not if the stall is owned and operated by your company and your company owns nothing.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
Every trader that attends a market must have PL insurance.
I see a model train exhibition with traders in attendance as no different.
If your stall collapses for some unforeseen reason and squashes a small child then you will lose your home and anything else you own if you don't have the correct insurance
Not if the stall is owned and operated by your company and your company owns nothing.
TheBlacksmith
The injured party can sue your limited liability company, they can sue the building owner, they can sue the event organiser, or they can sue an individual directly. They will sue whoever is most likely going to be found to have a liability for the injury and just as importantly they will sue whoever is most likely to one way or another be forced to pay whatever settlement is agreed or awarded. If, hypothetically, the stall you set up collapses and squishes the child you can still be personally sued (you, not the business) because you set up the stall in an unsafe manner and as such it was your personal negligence that caused said injury. Bye bye house Smile

Usual disclaimer applies: I'm not a lawyer, TheBlacksmith isn't a lawyer. If you want to save your butt (and house) don't get your legal advice from Railpage forums.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Every trader that attends a market must have PL insurance.
I see a model train exhibition with traders in attendance as no different.
If your stall collapses for some unforeseen reason and squashes a small child then you will lose your home and anything else you own if you don't have the correct insurance
Not if the stall is owned and operated by your company and your company owns nothing.
The injured party can sue your limited liability company, they can sue the building owner, they can sue the event organiser, or they can sue an individual directly. They will sue whoever is most likely going to be found to have a liability for the injury and just as importantly they will sue whoever is most likely to one way or another be forced to pay whatever settlement is agreed or awarded. If, hypothetically, the stall you set up collapses and squishes the child you can still be personally sued (you, not the business) because you set up the stall in an unsafe manner and as such it was your personal negligence that caused said injury. Bye bye house Smile

Usual disclaimer applies: I'm not a lawyer, TheBlacksmith isn't a lawyer. If you want to save your butt (and house) don't get your legal advice from Railpage forums.
Poath Junction
No, I am not a lawyer, and I do not ask people to accept my comments as 'legal advice', but the fact remains that unless I directly cause injury to someone, they can only sue my company, and my company has limited assets to pay any claim. So it is not Bye Bye House at all. If you want, try Googling it.

I am not suggesting that anyone attends a show without insurance cover, I am merely trying to correct the statement about the liability or otherwise of traders or exhibitors.



Frankly I find this whole issue to be an avoidance of responsibi8lity by the event organisers. They should organise insurance for the event that covers the stand holders and the exhibitors. In particular the exhibitors, who in most cases have to go to great trouble to exhibit at these shows for little or no reward. It is the organisers who have the most to gain out of the shows, without traders or exhibitors they would have no show.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
No need for me to google it, I understand the full ramifications of tort law.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
No need for me to google it, I understand the full ramifications of tort law.
Poath Junction
Funny, you just said you were not a lawyer. This issue arose for me about 5 years back, and I did go to the trouble of getting paid legal advice in relation to it. I am simply telling a short version of what I was advised. But if you don't want to Google it, here is a link: https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090806115213AA6e1U8
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
One does not need to be a lawyer to understand laws. One also does not need to he a lawyer to know a link to a nobody giving advice about American law on an unmoderated yahoo.com forum is NOT, I repeat NOT, sound legal advice.

If I was trying to point score I'd go for something a bit more authoritative, and given we're both in Victoria that would be the Wrongs and Other Acts (Law of Negligence) Act 2003. http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/web_notes/ldms/pubstatbook.nsf/f932b66241ecf1b7ca256e92000e23be/edbb4dd2b6bbb604ca256e5b00214122!OpenDocument
  nscaler69 Deputy Commissioner

Location: There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
Has anything changed about PLI since this was discussed a couple of years ago:
http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11366490.htm "Model Train Shows and Public Liability for Exhibitors"
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

I own a special event catering company that regularly attends agricultural shows, rodeos, car shows and special events such as Australia Day and Carols by Candlelight.
At every event I attend the promoter or organiser has their own PL policy which covers their people and their actions at the event.
I also have to provide proof of my $20M policy before I can even attend the event.
No insurance, no job.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I own a special event catering company that regularly attends agricultural shows, rodeos, car shows and special events such as Australia Day and Carols by Candlelight.
At every event I attend the promoter or organiser has their own PL policy which covers their people and their actions at the event.
I also have to provide proof of my $20M policy before I can even attend the event.
No insurance, no job.
Showtime
That's fine, you are earning money from doing that work, but it is not relevant to this discussion.

The issue is the people who exhibit model railway layouts and get paid nothing or a pittance, why should they have to fork out for a policy to cover themselves, when it is little more than a voluntary job. Traders may make more money, although there are some who are really only operating a small business part time.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
One does not need to be a lawyer to understand laws. One also does not need to he a lawyer to know a link to a nobody giving advice about American law on an unmoderated yahoo.com forum is NOT, I repeat NOT, sound legal advice.

If I was trying to point score I'd go for something a bit more authoritative, and given we're both in Victoria that would be the Wrongs and Other Acts (Law of Negligence) Act 2003. http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/web_notes/ldms/pubstatbook.nsf/f932b66241ecf1b7ca256e92000e23be/edbb4dd2b6bbb604ca256e5b00214122!OpenDocument
Poath Junction

Can you just get over the fact that I am not offering a legal advice on this. It is MY PERSONAL OPINION, got that?
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
time will come everyone will need that 20mil PL cover just to step out of the door.  Imagine going to any event or trip or shop and before you can enter you have to show that you are covered........

There again , who knows...

It is a hard circumstance to work on, as  insurnce  is obtainable, for a price, and that makes thesse things so increasingly expensive.


Regards,
David Head
  Draffa Chief Commissioner

They will sue whoever is most likely going to be found to have a liability for the injury and just as importantly they will sue whoever is most likely to one way or another be forced to pay whatever settlement is agreed or awarded.
Poath Junction


Yes, the reality is that the injured party/ies lawyer/s will probably sue everyone, and see what sticks.  They'll also do some due dilligence and see what assets the person/people/entities they're suing own.  If you own nothing (ie, have nothing in your name), they'll move on.
So The Blacksmith is right: his business probably won't get sued, because there's nothing to win from that, and it would be a great big waste of time and money (unscrupulous lawyers - but I repeat myself - might continue the case anyway, because they'll get paid regardless).  Basically, The Blacksmiths business is safe, but he personally, the organisers, and everyone remotely associated in any shape or form might not be.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
Can you just get over the fact that I am not offering a legal advice on this. It is MY PERSONAL OPINION, got that?
TheBlacksmith
And I'm just pointing out the laws don't match your personal opinion.

edit: In an effort to avoid the thread degenerating and being locked I shall refrain from any further commenting.
  lrbam Chief Train Controller

Location: The Great South West
I would have thought most clubs would have public liability insurance. Many venue owners require it before they will hire out their site for an exhibition. Many local government bodies will also require it if leasing a hall or other building to a club (for example, a model train club room). I know the Warrnambool Club has such a policy, having been asked about this some years ago by the local council.
How good such policies are will unfortunately not be apparent until a claim is made. Many clubs are also incorporated. here in Victoria at least. My understanding is that this will give protection to the individual members of the club in the case of a claim. I have been of the understanding that an incorporated association can only be liable for the amount of its assets. The individual members cannot to pursued.......that is my understanding but I no particular legal expertise.
  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Has anything changed about PLI since this was discussed a couple of years ago:
http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11366490.htm "Model Train Shows and Public Liability for Exhibitors"
nscaler69
I doubt very much that anything has changed 69.  Let's just move on.  Nothing to see here.
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

I own a special event catering company that regularly attends agricultural shows, rodeos, car shows and special events such as Australia Day and Carols by Candlelight.
At every event I attend the promoter or organiser has their own PL policy which covers their people and their actions at the event.
I also have to provide proof of my $20M policy before I can even attend the event.
No insurance, no job.
That's fine, you are earning money from doing that work, but it is not relevant to this discussion.

The issue is the people who exhibit model railway layouts and get paid nothing or a pittance, why should they have to fork out for a policy to cover themselves, when it is little more than a voluntary job. Traders may make more money, although there are some who are really only operating a small business part time.

TheBlacksmith
Excuse me Mr Know it all
Can you not see the relevance to this thread in the OP's opening sentence.

" We attend quite a few shows as traders.It is getting ridiculously that traders have to get their own insurance. How can clubs operate an exhibition and expect traders tocome pay for stand fees then put the cost of public liabilities on top of this. Got an email tonight about this"
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I own a special event catering company that regularly attends agricultural shows, rodeos, car shows and special events such as Australia Day and Carols by Candlelight.
At every event I attend the promoter or organiser has their own PL policy which covers their people and their actions at the event.
I also have to provide proof of my $20M policy before I can even attend the event.
No insurance, no job.
That's fine, you are earning money from doing that work, but it is not relevant to this discussion.

The issue is the people who exhibit model railway layouts and get paid nothing or a pittance, why should they have to fork out for a policy to cover themselves, when it is little more than a voluntary job. Traders may make more money, although there are some who are really only operating a small business part time.
Excuse me Mr Know it all
Can you not see the relevance to this thread in the OP's opening sentence.

" We attend quite a few shows as traders.It is getting ridiculously that traders have to get their own insurance. How can clubs operate an exhibition and expect traders tocome pay for stand fees then put the cost of public liabilities on top of this. Got an email tonight about this"
Showtime
Oh, I dunno, might be something to do with the fact that the OP is not configured as a business and is making a few quid out of selling things to modellers, whereas it is your main business in operating a special event catering business. But thanks for your comment Mr. Not-As Smart-As-He-Thinks.
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

I own a special event catering company that regularly attends agricultural shows, rodeos, car shows and special events such as Australia Day and Carols by Candlelight.
At every event I attend the promoter or organiser has their own PL policy which covers their people and their actions at the event.
I also have to provide proof of my $20M policy before I can even attend the event.
No insurance, no job.
That's fine, you are earning money from doing that work, but it is not relevant to this discussion.

The issue is the people who exhibit model railway layouts and get paid nothing or a pittance, why should they have to fork out for a policy to cover themselves, when it is little more than a voluntary job. Traders may make more money, although there are some who are really only operating a small business part time.
Excuse me Mr Know it all
Can you not see the relevance to this thread in the OP's opening sentence.

" We attend quite a few shows as traders.It is getting ridiculously that traders have to get their own insurance. How can clubs operate an exhibition and expect traders tocome pay for stand fees then put the cost of public liabilities on top of this. Got an email tonight about this"
Oh, I dunno, might be something to do with the fact that the OP is not configured as a business and is making a few quid out of selling things to modellers, whereas it is your main business in operating a special event catering business. But thanks for your comment Mr. Not-As Smart-As-He-Thinks.
TheBlacksmith
It matters nothing if he is configured as a business.
If he is trading at an event he needs insurance.
It is not just public liability but also product insurance that is required.
What if the said trader unknowingly sells a faulty control unit to a customer at a railway model show and the client plugs it in and is electrocuted.
These are all scenarios covered in the policy.
If anyone wants to operate in the public domain and is allowed to or chooses to do so without some form of protection that is readily available, then more fool them.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I own a special event catering company that regularly attends agricultural shows, rodeos, car shows and special events such as Australia Day and Carols by Candlelight.
At every event I attend the promoter or organiser has their own PL policy which covers their people and their actions at the event.
I also have to provide proof of my $20M policy before I can even attend the event.
No insurance, no job.
That's fine, you are earning money from doing that work, but it is not relevant to this discussion.

The issue is the people who exhibit model railway layouts and get paid nothing or a pittance, why should they have to fork out for a policy to cover themselves, when it is little more than a voluntary job. Traders may make more money, although there are some who are really only operating a small business part time.
Excuse me Mr Know it all
Can you not see the relevance to this thread in the OP's opening sentence.

" We attend quite a few shows as traders.It is getting ridiculously that traders have to get their own insurance. How can clubs operate an exhibition and expect traders tocome pay for stand fees then put the cost of public liabilities on top of this. Got an email tonight about this"
Oh, I dunno, might be something to do with the fact that the OP is not configured as a business and is making a few quid out of selling things to modellers, whereas it is your main business in operating a special event catering business. But thanks for your comment Mr. Not-As Smart-As-He-Thinks.
It matters nothing if he is configured as a business.
If he is trading at an event he needs insurance.
It is not just public liability but also product insurance that is required.
What if the said trader unknowingly sells a faulty control unit to a customer at a railway model show and the client plugs it in and is electrocuted.
These are all scenarios covered in the policy.
If anyone wants to operate in the public domain and is allowed to or chooses to do so without some form of protection that is readily available, then more fool them.
Showtime
I am getting tired of this, but here goes: The greatest burden falls upon the little guy who turns up to exhibit a model railway. In some cases they are paid to turn up, in some they get bugger all for turning up, but they have to go to the trouble of transporting the layout from where it is stored to the venue, assemble it, operate it for two or three long days for which they might get coffee, sandwiches and soft drink, then pack it all up and take it home. Why should they also have to shoulder the burden of PLI? It should be provided by the venue organisers, because if the model layouts don't turn up, then the whole show fails.

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