Question about 3000 class railcars

 
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So by that logic are the 4000s (and the TGV, Eurostar etc) just diesel trains missing a donk?

Sponsored advertisement

  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Maybe while we're at it we can repower some NRs to sparks and really get some big pax trains running on time with 4000hp up front?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
.....

It would be worth considering 4-car EMUs for the second fleet because many of the platforms north of the city are only that long, unlike the Seaford line where only a couple of stations are short enough for 2x3-car EMU consists to use SDO on one or two cars at the back.
justapassenger
Good idea, 4-car sets at a more frequent interval would probably be a better utilisation of the rolling-stock anyway - and I'd imagine most of Outer Habour's platforms are also only suited to a maximum of 4 or 5 cars anyway so why not purchase consists that are permanently set up that way unless they want some 2-car consists for off-peak operation.

As with Vlocity I'm sure they could probably add another passenger car if they wanted to extend current sets to that configuration too.
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
So by that logic are the 4000s (and the TGV, Eurostar etc) just diesel trains missing a donk?
Aaron
Yes. The only difference is the source of the electrical input to the control equipment.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
So by that logic are the 4000s (and the TGV, Eurostar etc) just diesel trains missing a donk?
Yes. The only difference is the source of the electrical input to the control equipment.
Alco_Haulic
Not quite- finding a diesel donk and gen set able to be squeezed in and powerful enough to supply a similar demand capacity for the rapid acceleration is no easy task. It is all very well to say a diesel engine has x amount of power but it lacks the ready availability of an external electric source.
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Maybe while we're at it we can repower some NRs to sparks and really get some big pax trains running on time with 4000hp up front?
"Aaron"
... and telescopic coaches to fit the shorter platforms such as Mawson Lakes and Oaklands.

Alex C
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So by that logic are the 4000s (and the TGV, Eurostar etc) just diesel trains missing a donk?
Yes. The only difference is the source of the electrical input to the control equipment.
Alco_Haulic
No, don't kid yourself and confuse poor Mr Peters.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Maybe while we're at it we can repower some NRs to sparks and really get some big pax trains running on time with 4000hp up front?
... and telescopic coaches to fit the shorter platforms such as Mawson Lakes and Oaklands.

Alex C
62430
I have a friend (who frequents this place) who owns a 'selectively compressed' model Overland consist. Each coach sits on a single bogie, and the locomotive is a small saddle tanked '50 class' being a compressed '500 class'. Perhaps we need to have him of the engineering design team for our sparked NRs, his credentials in design are at least as good as, and likely better than those normally found at DPTI.
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
So by that logic are the 4000s (and the TGV, Eurostar etc) just diesel trains missing a donk?
Yes. The only difference is the source of the electrical input to the control equipment.
Not quite- finding a diesel donk and gen set able to be squeezed in and powerful enough to supply a similar demand capacity for the rapid acceleration is no easy task. It is all very well to say a diesel engine has x amount of power but it lacks the ready availability of an external electric source.
nm39
I agree, finding a suitable engine for the power requirements is basically impossible. It is however only the source of power that is the main difference between a diesel electric, and a straight electric locomotive.
  Halo Chief Train Controller

So without converting the 3000s or buying more 4000s we have negated the point or sparking the Gawler line.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

So without converting the 3000s or buying more 4000s we have negated the point or sparking the Gawler line.
Halo
Correct! With such an abundance of world-class DEMUs still going strong and still able to get within a few minutes of EMU timing on a Seaford-City run, it makes all the sense in the world to leave the Salisbury-Gawler electrification works on the shelf until the DEMUs are approaching life expiry in 10-15 years time.

That's plenty of time to finish the job on the Seaford line properly (we still don't have ETCS switched on, so far as I'm aware) and then conduct a thorough review into the failures of the Seaford line project so the lessons are learned and the next rail project can be done right the first time.

It's also enough time to hire a top flight project manager who could ensure the project would be staged properly, using almost exclusively night works with no disruption to working day peak trains. Just like Network Rail is doing with the much busier Great Western Main Line from London to Cardiff.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Just like Network Rail is doing with the much busier Great Western Main Line from London to Cardiff.
justapassenger
Tell us, how's that working out for them Razz
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Quite well, I'd say.

Even with it running behind schedule thanks to scope creep and political meddling, there will still be no major impacts on passengers and no complete shutdowns lasting for months.

Compare that to Adelaide, where thousands of former regular rail commuters still haven't returned after the shutdowns and the stats are only being propped up by the Adelaide Oval traffic for weekend events.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Quite well, I'd say.

Even with it running behind schedule thanks to scope creep and political meddling, there will still be no major impacts on passengers and no complete shutdowns lasting for months.

Compare that to Adelaide, where thousands of former regular rail commuters still haven't returned after the shutdowns and the stats are only being propped up by the Adelaide Oval traffic for weekend events.
justapassenger
'political meddling'  - governments tend to do that when projects are running tens of millions of pounds/dollars over budget and years behind schedule and having to cancel other projects as a result.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Compare that to Adelaide, where thousands of former regular rail commuters still haven't returned after the shutdowns and the stats are only being propped up by the Adelaide Oval traffic for weekend events.
justapassenger
If they had the rivers of money that we have in Victoria (and NSW) from stamp duty then I'm sure it would have all been finished by now with Gawler and Outer Harbour both sparked.

It's the lack of $$$ holding back the various projects.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

.....

It would be worth considering 4-car EMUs for the second fleet because many of the platforms north of the city are only that long, unlike the Seaford line where only a couple of stations are short enough for 2x3-car EMU consists to use SDO on one or two cars at the back.
justapassenger
Good idea, 4-car sets at a more frequent interval would probably be a better utilisation of the rolling-stock anyway - and I'd imagine most of Outer Habour's platforms are also only suited to a maximum of 4 or 5 cars anyway so why not purchase consists that are permanently set up that way unless they want some 2-car consists for off-peak operation.

As with Vlocity I'm sure they could probably add another passenger car if they wanted to extend current sets to that configuration too.
"don_dunstan"

Standard lengths on Gawler and Seaford are 160m for 6 cars. On Outer Harbor it is 120. There are substandard lengths which are all documented and concept designed. The most critical would be Oaklands.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
.....

It would be worth considering 4-car EMUs for the second fleet because many of the platforms north of the city are only that long, unlike the Seaford line where only a couple of stations are short enough for 2x3-car EMU consists to use SDO on one or two cars at the back.
Good idea, 4-car sets at a more frequent interval would probably be a better utilisation of the rolling-stock anyway - and I'd imagine most of Outer Habour's platforms are also only suited to a maximum of 4 or 5 cars anyway so why not purchase consists that are permanently set up that way unless they want some 2-car consists for off-peak operation.

As with Vlocity I'm sure they could probably add another passenger car if they wanted to extend current sets to that configuration too.

Standard lengths on Gawler and Seaford are 160m for 6 cars. On Outer Harbor it is 120. There are substandard lengths which are all documented and concept designed. The most critical would be Oaklands.
62440
Can a 6-car set actually stop at Oaklands?
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Can a 6-car set actually stop at Oaklands?
"don_dunstan"

An up 6-car train cannot clear the axle-counter that releases the Morphett/Diagonal level crossing without overrunning the platform.  On the down line the ped crossing at the city end is fouled.

I suspect this is one factor that has influenced the design of the footy special service which sees 6-car down trains post match but 3-car only pre-match from Seaford (15 min) with additional Brighton - Adelaide workings.

Alex C
  Smacks Station Master

.....

It would be worth considering 4-car EMUs for the second fleet because many of the platforms north of the city are only that long, unlike the Seaford line where only a couple of stations are short enough for 2x3-car EMU consists to use SDO on one or two cars at the back.
Good idea, 4-car sets at a more frequent interval would probably be a better utilisation of the rolling-stock anyway - and I'd imagine most of Outer Habour's platforms are also only suited to a maximum of 4 or 5 cars anyway so why not purchase consists that are permanently set up that way unless they want some 2-car consists for off-peak operation.

As with Vlocity I'm sure they could probably add another passenger car if they wanted to extend current sets to that configuration too.

Standard lengths on Gawler and Seaford are 160m for 6 cars. On Outer Harbor it is 120. There are substandard lengths which are all documented and concept designed. The most critical would be Oaklands.
Can a 6-car set actually stop at Oaklands?
don_dunstan

They run 6 car sets on the down after major events. The doors on the rear car do not open, same with Marion and Mile End.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
So by that logic are the 4000s (and the TGV, Eurostar etc) just diesel trains missing a donk?
Yes. The only difference is the source of the electrical input to the control equipment.
No, don't kid yourself and confuse poor Mr Peters.
Aaron
They are not confusing me Aaron, you are the one with the huge ego not me!
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.

Standard lengths on Gawler and Seaford are 160m for 6 cars. On Outer Harbor it is 120. There are substandard lengths which are all documented and concept designed. The most critical would be Oaklands.Can a 6-car set actually stop at Oaklands?
They run 6 car sets on the down after major events. The doors on the rear car do not open, same with Marion and Mile End.
The incompetence of those who have 'designed' the new stations is mind-boggling and they don't deserve to hold their jobs. They look modern and attractive but that is about all that can be said in their favour.

Oaklands has plenty of room for extension at the Adelaide end with the  re-location of the pedestrian crossing. A trackside apron alongside the down ramp as far as the existing crossing and a re-location of the signal could possibly be another, but the real question is why it wasn't built long enough in the first place.

Of equal importance is the use of translucent roofs without the concomitant provision of a section of upwards reflective opaque sheeting to provide real shelter from the summer sun glare.  This makes the information screens at many stations almost useless on a bright day.

Wind and blown rain protection is non-existent. It is common in Melbourne for stations to have air-conditioned waiting rooms and enclosed shelters near the far end of platforms. Adelaide's winter is very little warmer and the rainfall is higher.

I can board and alight with my mobility scooter without assistance at Adelaide and Oaklands. At other stations, though I am always positioned to cross the driver's ramp within a couple of seconds, I am acutely aware that it is still an inconvenience to them.

I support the suggestion that four car sets with a minimum of the present frequency all day and night should be the norm for Adelaide. All platforms should be brought up to the present Adelaide Station standard for that length.

On another topic, it is instructive that another fenced pedestrian track-side pathway which has been used without incident for decades has been closed. The law used to be that a right-of-way would become permanent if the owner of the land failed annually to erect barriers and notices to close it for 24 hours. If that has not been done, then it may be that the closure is illegal.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The SAR used to close all pedestrian crossings in the metro area at least one day every year at Easter to stop them becoming a permanent right of way. I can remember this and I wonder when the last time it was done though!
  Nar-Nar Station Staff

So without converting the 3000s or buying more 4000s we have negated the point or sparking the Gawler line.
Correct! With such an abundance of world-class DEMUs still going strong and still able to get within a few minutes of EMU timing on a Seaford-City run, it makes all the sense in the world to leave the Salisbury-Gawler electrification works on the shelf until the DEMUs are approaching life expiry in 10-15 years time.
justapassenger
World class is pushing the friendship a bit, non? Razz but in principle, I agree.  

to those that say the 3000's are simple to convert, there's little detail that can be added, but in general upgrading the 3000's is not straight forward, for all the reasons listed and more. one I didn't see mentioned is they would be considered 'significantly modified rolling stock' and therefore need to go through a new safety case. While no-body is saying they are unsafe, the process alone is significant and lengthy.

squeezing more red and blue sausages out the end of BTA is a more logical approach, even if production is well and truly finished.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I didn't see mentioned is they would be considered 'significantly modified rolling stock' and therefore need to go through a new safety case. While no-body is saying they are unsafe, the process alone is significant and lengthy.
Nar-Nar
If the money became available overnight to do Gawler and Outer Harbour it would make more sense for the 3000's to be replaced with purpose built 25kv electric trains; perhaps as middle-aged DMU's they may be suited to shorter inter-urban runs with V/line to Waurn Ponds (Geelong South), Bacchus Marsh, Seymour and Gippsland? Not sure if loading gauge and top speeds might rule this out of the question though.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Standard lengths on Gawler and Seaford are 160m for 6 cars. On Outer Harbor it is 120. There are substandard lengths which are all documented and concept designed. The most critical would be Oaklands.
62440
What are the standard lengths for the Grange and Belair lines?

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: KEVIN ROEHR, Pressman, witsend

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.