Central Station - Platforms 26 and 27

 
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Unconvered an image of a disused platform in Sydney Central but wondering if more information exists on why they are disused and for what purposes were they built?


Photo: Central Station disused Platforms 26 and 27.

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  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
Unconvered an image of a disused platform in Sydney Central but wondering if more information exists on why they are disused and for what purposes were they built?


Photo: Central Station disused Platforms 26 and 27.
x31
They were I believe for a southern suburbs line to Mascot and Airport (actual line built to different plans). Also used for document storage and occasional tours. Basically like every other disused tunnel (eg St James and North Sydney) they were built for future use to minimise disruption to the existing network but were never used with the exception of Townhall platform 4 and 5 currently being used by the ESR). As for more information there really isn't much to discover except the odd newspaper articles and some websites with pictures if you want to find something online
  jkennedy2 Station Staff

Location: Sydney, Australia
Is the new Sydney Metro to Bankstown via Waterloo and Sydenham going to use platform 26 and 27 at central? I did previously hear mention of a new set of platforms under existing platforms 14 and 15, but now that the station at waterloo is confirmed, it does not seem unreasonable or out of the way of the alignment between pitt st and waterloo, for the metro line to use platforms 26 and 27 at central. Any thoughts?
  grog Train Controller

Is the new Sydney Metro to Bankstown via Waterloo and Sydenham going to use platform 26 and 27 at central? I did previously hear mention of a new set of platforms under existing platforms 14 and 15, but now that the station at waterloo is confirmed, it does not seem unreasonable or out of the way of the alignment between pitt st and waterloo, for the metro line to use platforms 26 and 27 at central. Any thoughts?
jkennedy2
Having the platforms under 14/15 is an important part of the plan to increase capacity on the Western line by running more services into Sydney Terminal for interchange with the Metro.
  tjejojyj Station Master

Location: Sydney
Is the new Sydney Metro to Bankstown via Waterloo and Sydenham going to use platform 26 and 27 at central? I did previously hear mention of a new set of platforms under existing platforms 14 and 15, but now that the station at waterloo is confirmed, it does not seem unreasonable or out of the way of the alignment between pitt st and waterloo, for the metro line to use platforms 26 and 27 at central. Any thoughts?
Having the platforms under 14/15 is an important part of the plan to increase capacity on the Western line by running more services into Sydney Terminal for interchange with the Metro.
grog

Do you know if there are plans to improve the circulation spaces from the suburban lines to he new platform at Central?   These areas must be close to capacity at peak as it is, especially the stairs at the northern end of platforms 16/17.  The new line will feed more passengers wanting to get to North Sydney or Milsons Point, worsening the problem even beyond gradual growth in patronage.

(BTW:  I think Sydney trains could put more effort into training passengers to stand clear of the doors and look for doors that aren't congested.  IMHO the occasional angry announcements I hear is due to lack of preemptive action in a system straining in the peak hours)
  Rad Locomotive Fireman

Location: Gerringong NSW
I am sure I noticed that the old blocked off stairway at the northern end of Platform 14/15 has now been re-opened and cleaned up as part of the lower concourse refurb and relocation of the barriers. This gives two stairways and the up/down escalators.

I also think more people should be educated about the tunnels at the Devonshire street end as a means of transfer between platforms.
  fg Station Staff

With the bankstwn metro what would happen to stations between bankstown and liverpool. And would macdonaldtown stabling still be used
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
With the bankstwn metro what would happen to stations between bankstown and liverpool. And would macdonaldtown stabling still be used
fg
Stabling
They are building their own west of the terminus in the NW. They cannot use the ones used by Sydney trains unless they take full sole access.

Stations west of Bankstown,
There is much debate and predictions on this.
My forecast,
1) trains will again run via Reagents Park from Liverpool
2) shuttle to Bankstown.
3) they will eventually announce the Metro will later be extended to Liverpool and Lidcombe like originally.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

With the bankstwn metro what would happen to stations between bankstown and liverpool. And would macdonaldtown stabling still be used
Stabling
They are building their own west of the terminus in the NW. They cannot use the ones used by Sydney trains unless they take full sole access.

Stations west of Bankstown,
There is much debate and predictions on this.
My forecast,
1) trains will again run via Reagents Park from Liverpool
2) shuttle to Bankstown.
3) they will eventually announce the Metro will later be extended to Liverpool and Lidcombe like originally.
RTT_Rules

The Metro will be extended in a straight line to Liverpool from Bankstown with a new underground station in Liverpool at Elizabeth or Moore Streets. It could also extend to the new airport with an interchange with the Tway somewhere. It would probably be aligned under either Elizabeth Drive or North Liverpool Road.

The metro will not be forking to Lidcombe and the only way the Regent's park line will get a frequent service returned is by separation of the western line from the main south between Strathfield and Granville. There is also talk of light rail or SD carriages doing regents park and Liverpool to Bankstown via Sefton shuttles.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Metro should be extended to Regents park.  

Cabramatta to liverpool should be extended to having 5 tracks with possible grade separated junction (4 passenger, 1 for SSFL).  
In the short term introduce 15 minute shuttle between lidcombe and liverpool via regents park using 4 cars double deck sets.  This should be complemented with occasional peak through trains.

Longer term, telerah to wickham and kiama to bomaderry should be electrified and run with single deck electric trains.   When this happens use some of these single deck trains should run on the liverpool-lidcombe shuttle along with a few other routes like cumberland line, olympic park (when no events are on) and carlingford services (if it still exists)
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

The Metro will be extended in a straight line to Liverpool from Bankstown with a new underground station in Liverpool at Elizabeth or Moore Streets. It could also extend to the new airport with an interchange with the Tway somewhere. It would probably be aligned under either Elizabeth Drive or North Liverpool Road.

The metro will not be forking to Lidcombe and the only way the Regent's park line will get a frequent service returned is by separation of the western line from the main south between Strathfield and Granville. There is also talk of light rail or SD carriages doing regents park and Liverpool to Bankstown via Sefton shuttles.
simstrain
Thinking some more

What won't happen is the SD approach. Buy a small fleet of specialized carriages? While I detest the use of DD stock on the Carlingford Line simply converting the line to DD operation with a 4 car set would save more money.

Light rail maybe, hopeless for the people out there travelling to the city, too slow, might be ok if they don't add extra stops or slow it down.

Direct tunnel, yes I've read that and I think its one of the pie in the sky projects. A 10.5km ($4-5B) tunnel for that volume of traffic, mmmm? It would be far cheaper to build a tunnel from Waterloo to Ashfield and install 6 tracks to Lidcombe and fully uterlise that "local" pair of tracks running trains to Liverpool via either Granville or Reagents Park. The tunnel to Ashfield is about 6.5km long and would have more than triple the patronage and grow at a faster rate.

Metro will I believe be extended in some way to connect with the Reagents Park to Liverpool line, either as a single line or a Y connecting Regents Park and Liverpool but on the surface.

Metro to Airport, no. I mean seriously no. They will extend the Leppington line. It may come down from the nth, but not from east.

Ok final two bet
1) Y extension on surface using some of current alignment to Liverpool and Regents Park with Light Rail joining Liverpool to Lidcombe
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

We are getting off track a little bit here. I created a new thread and moved some of my posts there.

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2014619.htm#2014619
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
There is also talk of light rail or SD carriages doing regents park and Liverpool to Bankstown via Sefton shuttles.
simstrain

If the services between Lidcombe, Bankstown and Liverpool are isolated from the rest of the network, then you might run twice the number of trains with only 4 car sets, thus using the same amount of rolling stock as before. 4 car Tangaras are already available off the shelf.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There is also talk of light rail or SD carriages doing regents park and Liverpool to Bankstown via Sefton shuttles.

If the services between Lidcombe, Bankstown and Liverpool are isolated from the rest of the network, then you might run twice the number of trains with only 4 car sets, thus using the same amount of rolling stock as before. 4 car Tangaras are already available off the shelf.
awsgc24
Not sure what you mean by Tangara's being available off the shelf but if existing stock is used it is more likely to be a 4 car S, K, C or M set in this area.
  Ashjayeen13 Station Master

Location: Brisbane, Australia
With the bankstwn metro what would happen to stations between bankstown and liverpool. And would macdonaldtown stabling still be used
Stabling
They are building their own west of the terminus in the NW. They cannot use the ones used by Sydney trains unless they take full sole access.

Stations west of Bankstown,
There is much debate and predictions on this.
My forecast,
1) trains will again run via Reagents Park from Liverpool
2) shuttle to Bankstown.
3) they will eventually announce the Metro will later be extended to Liverpool and Lidcombe like originally.
RTT_Rules
The Metro is possibly going to be extended to Liverpool in the future, but it won't go to Lidcombe, so I'm not sure what will happen to Regents Park and Berala, since a shuttle service with 3 stations on the line isn't exactly practical, unless you use 4 car sets.

Lidcombe platform 5 could be used as a layby platform/turnback for occasional services on T1 and T2.

Or, it could be used as a terminus for the Leppington - Liverpool route on T2, with trains now going from Leppington - Lidcombe. Doing this would need a crossing from the Up Suburban track to platform 5, which would need a possible realignment of some tracks due to lack of space. For this there is another option: cross from Up Suburban to Down Suburban, then build a crossing from Down Suburban to platform 5, which would be easier, but may cause delays on trains leaving platform 4.

EDIT: Looking at Google Maps, there is *some* space for a crossover from Up/Down Suburban to platform 5, but the track might not curve beautifully.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

With the bankstwn metro what would happen to stations between bankstown and liverpool. And would macdonaldtown stabling still be used
Stabling
They are building their own west of the terminus in the NW. They cannot use the ones used by Sydney trains unless they take full sole access.

Stations west of Bankstown,
There is much debate and predictions on this.
My forecast,
1) trains will again run via Reagents Park from Liverpool
2) shuttle to Bankstown.
3) they will eventually announce the Metro will later be extended to Liverpool and Lidcombe like originally.
RTT_Rules

Platform 26/7 will never run a train because it will never meet modern standards like the modern ecrl stations. Having been on platform 26/27 as part of a tour. I can tell you that it lacks platform space and would suffer similar issues as Town hall platforms 1,2 and 3.

Number 3 in your list will not happen regardless of how much you want it to. Doing so will still reduce Liverpool to a 60 minute service and a metro service running on ATO can't work on a line that also runs freight. The reason for going in a direct line to Liverpool is to provide Liverpool with a 40 minute service into the CBD.

I must say that I enjoyed the Macarthur express from Central to Liverpool via Regents park in 37 minutes yesterday. Normally these services run via the Bankstown line but still take 60 minutes due to being stuck behind all stops services and 5 minute interludes at Sydenham.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller


Number 3 in your list will not happen regardless of how much you want it to. Doing so will still reduce Liverpool to a 60 minute service and a metro service running on ATO can't work on a line that also runs freight. The reason for going in a direct line to Liverpool is to provide Liverpool with a 40 minute service into the CBD.
simstrain


Ignoring loading gauge and crash resistance issues of a metro style train vs a goods train, why do people think that unattended ATO means the line has to be 100% isolated from manually driven trains ?.
They don't.
The unattended ATO train follows signals. The manually driven train follows signals with, usually these days, an ATP system to intervene when the human doesn't pay attention.

I have ridden TWO different unattended ATO trains where other trains on the SAME track were being driven manually, in one case I was in an ATO train , right up front watching the tail lights of the manually operated train ahead. The ATO train just followed it's signaled authority behind the other train. It doesn't care or even need to know how the train ahead is operated, only that the signalling system correctly reports it's there and generates appropriate movement authorities.

Sydney Metro is being driven by political/urban development forces and not any real transport/engineering lead. It's all about Asian style high density tower blocks. The metro project is just the enabler.

In theory the Bankstown line could have manually driven DD trains mixed in with ATO metro trains - provided the metro trains are the same width and can use the same power. But given the way Sydney Metro is being managed, I would be betting they will DELIBERATELY ensure complete and total incompatibility at a physical level (different car width, different power systems) to forever rule out any possibility of inter-running.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

What happens when a signal fails, In an unattended train, it pretty much cannot proceed, but if driven manually, there are work-arounds.
ATO trains are also generally separated so it is very hard for something to access the tracks.  No ATO train has the sensors needed to prevent suicides, hitting large animals, or even deformed track.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What happens when a signal fails, In an unattended train, it pretty much cannot proceed, but if driven manually, there are work-arounds.
ATO trains are also generally separated so it is very hard for something to access the tracks.  No ATO train has the sensors needed to prevent suicides, hitting large animals, or even deformed track.
tazzer96
ATO or Manual, should a Suicider or large animal (I would hope Suburban Sydney doesn't have many of the later) be on the track it will be killed by the train as in either case the train cannot stop in time and never has. German ATO's do have some sensors now to detect if they have hit something and simply report it.

Deformed track, plenty of examples of manually driven trains in the dirt over this, however in Sydney this is rarely an issue. But ATO do have derailment detection.

Signal failure, this is a cause or effect. Old line side technology is going to be more prone to other types. But for ATO's to be a market success the vendors have had to make them safe and to date their safety performance exceeds that of manual driven systems. They also need to be reliable and again their world performance history demonstrates this. Yes we have all read the examples of a strandard train and passengers screaming blue murder as they get off often hours later, but this has happened in Brisbane in recent times.  The Signally system is very different I suspect.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Number 3 in your list will not happen regardless of how much you want it to. Doing so will still reduce Liverpool to a 60 minute service and a metro service running on ATO can't work on a line that also runs freight. The reason for going in a direct line to Liverpool is to provide Liverpool with a 40 minute service into the CBD.

Ignoring loading gauge and crash resistance issues of a metro style train vs a goods train, why do people think that unattended ATO means the line has to be 100% isolated from manually driven trains ?.
They don't.
The unattended ATO train follows signals. The manually driven train follows signals with, usually these days, an ATP system to intervene when the human doesn't pay attention.

I have ridden TWO different unattended ATO trains where other trains on the SAME track were being driven manually, in one case I was in an ATO train , right up front watching the tail lights of the manually operated train ahead. The ATO train just followed it's signaled authority behind the other train. It doesn't care or even need to know how the train ahead is operated, only that the signalling system correctly reports it's there and generates appropriate movement authorities.

Sydney Metro is being driven by political/urban development forces and not any real transport/engineering lead. It's all about Asian style high density tower blocks. The metro project is just the enabler.

In theory the Bankstown line could have manually driven DD trains mixed in with ATO metro trains - provided the metro trains are the same width and can use the same power. But given the way Sydney Metro is being managed, I would be betting they will DELIBERATELY ensure complete and total incompatibility at a physical level (different car width, different power systems) to forever rule out any possibility of inter-running.
Matthew
No one said mixing cannot be done, rather its more complex to do so and generally avoided.

There are also other issues such as differences in train design etc. My understanding the only places they have mixed are locations of common track on a network where one line is manual and other ATO and doing a progressive conversion.

The issue in mixing in Sydney will be station design changes especially platform doors which have different spacings to DD stock (yes work aroundable, but would you want to) but also mixing trains reduces the maximum capability of the Metro. Been long argued that mixing older SD stock and DD stock in Sydney was worst of both worlds for track capacity.

Remember Sydney is moving to the standard of A-B and C-D separated, not a mix of both as it maximises track capacity.

I highly doubt there is any political driven hiden agendas. Metro is cheaper to build and run and keeping it seperate only beds these savings in.

As corrected by Simstrain, the Metro will be extended to Liverpool by its own route and the DD's are likely to run Liverpool to city via Reagents Park. Yagoona and Birrong will close as a railway stations.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


Number 3 in your list will not happen regardless of how much you want it to. Doing so will still reduce Liverpool to a 60 minute service and a metro service running on ATO can't work on a line that also runs freight. The reason for going in a direct line to Liverpool is to provide Liverpool with a 40 minute service into the CBD.

Ignoring loading gauge and crash resistance issues of a metro style train vs a goods train, why do people think that unattended ATO means the line has to be 100% isolated from manually driven trains ?.
They don't.
The unattended ATO train follows signals. The manually driven train follows signals with, usually these days, an ATP system to intervene when the human doesn't pay attention.

I have ridden TWO different unattended ATO trains where other trains on the SAME track were being driven manually, in one case I was in an ATO train , right up front watching the tail lights of the manually operated train ahead. The ATO train just followed it's signaled authority behind the other train. It doesn't care or even need to know how the train ahead is operated, only that the signalling system correctly reports it's there and generates appropriate movement authorities.

Sydney Metro is being driven by political/urban development forces and not any real transport/engineering lead. It's all about Asian style high density tower blocks. The metro project is just the enabler.

In theory the Bankstown line could have manually driven DD trains mixed in with ATO metro trains - provided the metro trains are the same width and can use the same power. But given the way Sydney Metro is being managed, I would be betting they will DELIBERATELY ensure complete and total incompatibility at a physical level (different car width, different power systems) to forever rule out any possibility of inter-running.
Matthew

Have you seen a driverless metro train running on the same line as a 1.5km freight train?

The direct link to Liverpool from Bankstown is to reduce travel time. Currently the Liverpool via Bankstown line takes 60 minutes from Central. That is highly unlikely to change that much if the metro continues to travel along the same path. With the georges river braking it's banks again over the weekend. I highly doubt we will see a train station at georges hall or chipping norton and a tunnel will just go directly to Liverpool to Bankstown. This could possibly provide a 35 minute service to Liverpool.

Most of the stations in the bermuda triangle have extremely low patronage, even before the current timetable. The people in this area complain but they never used the service or otherwise there wouldn't be any reason to have removed the via regent park service and terminate certain bankstown trains at Lidcombe at Platform 5.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

There are also other issues such as differences in train design etc. My understanding the only places they have mixed are locations of common track on a network where one line is manual and other ATO and doing a progressive conversion.

The issue in mixing in Sydney will be station design changes especially platform doors which have different spacings to DD stock (yes work aroundable, but would you want to) but also mixing trains reduces the maximum capability of the Metro. Been long argued that mixing older SD stock and DD stock in Sydney was worst of both worlds for track capacity.

Remember Sydney is moving to the standard of A-B and C-D separated, not a mix of both as it maximises track capacity.

I highly doubt there is any political driven hiden agendas. Metro is cheaper to build and run and keeping it seperate only beds these savings in.

As corrected by Simstrain, the Metro will be extended to Liverpool by its own route and the DD's are likely to run Liverpool to city via Reagents Park. Yagoona and Birrong will close as a railway stations.
RTT_Rules
There are definitely politically driven agendas for the metro.  Because the current route for the metro NW, chatwood to rouse hill isn't suited to metro.   It doesn't take advantage of the benefits of a metro train over the current DD's.  That route would have been better just being part of the sydney DD network, still with a new harbour tunnel rail crossing.

There are heaps of places in sydney suited for a metro.   Going through mostly low density suburbia is not one of them.

While Birrong is certainly on the quieter end, yagoona has enough using it to stop its closure entirely.  If 2000 people a day using a railway station is low enough to close it, then 80% of QR's brisbane network needs to close.   So I don't think they will close.  I reckon the metro will spilt at bankstown, have some go to regeants park via the current route and the others run  to liverpool via a new more direct route.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There are definitely politically driven agendas for the metro.  Because the current route for the metro NW, chatwood to rouse hill isn't suited to metro.   It doesn't take advantage of the benefits of a metro train over the current DD's.  That route would have been better just being part of the sydney DD network, still with a new harbour tunnel rail crossing.

There are heaps of places in sydney suited for a metro.   Going through mostly low density suburbia is not one of them.

While Birrong is certainly on the quieter end, yagoona has enough using it to stop its closure entirely.  If 2000 people a day using a railway station is low enough to close it, then 80% of QR's brisbane network needs to close.   So I don't think they will close.  I reckon the metro will spilt at bankstown, have some go to regeants park via the current route and the others run  to liverpool via a new more direct route.
tazzer96
No thats not entirely true. The line is a not a typical sweeper and deliver at the CBD line with the reports showing significant numbers of people alighting between Epping and Chatswood, more than most other lines. Its also not being built as a True Metro as defined by some places in Europe. The line will if anything resemble more Melbourne technology.

Additonally the line as proposed would even if built a a DD would be mostly stand alone and the fact that its SD Auto technology or DD technology has no impact on how the rest of the network is operated. Meanwhile the NSW taxpayers will enjoy lower capital and operating costs for decades to come.

What happens at Bankstown to the junction is yet to be seen and I don't disagree about the issues with Yagoona. Yagoona will potentially get partial coverage by a new station west of Bankstown (assume to be built). For the cost of servicing Yagoona and Birrong with a Metro extension, a (hate to say it) improved bus option is probably a better outcome and the road network is suitable although the closed line may provide an option as well. If however there is sufficient volumes travelling through this section then Metro away.

Back to the top of Platform 26 and 27,  I'm thinking these stations may make better suited terminating location for the South Coast trains and thus providing more capacity to the Sydney Terminal platforms and numerous conflicting paths that occur there.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

P26/27 being used for terminating south coast trains is a really good idea. That platform would be more ideally suited for DD rolling stock that will terminate then a metro stop with high frequency.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
P26/27 being used for terminating south coast trains is a really good idea. That platform would be more ideally suited for DD rolling stock that will terminate then a metro stop with high frequency.
simstrain
An extension of this would be to completely separate the Southern Suburbs and South Coast services running through the Airport line only and the only services to do so.

Remove the connection from airport line to surface, but rather connect to the ESR Pl 24/25 prior to Central and South Coast to Pl 26/27 and a new station in Redfern area.

Metro then uses a new UG station under Central Pl 14/15 and then connects up to old ESR to Redfern using the ESR Redfern UG station then diving on the southern lines towards Bankstown.

Now the Quad from Wolli Creek to Eskinville is 100% available to the East Hills and SW services. Provides a mostly conflict free Quad from Revserby to Eksinville and more paths in the city tunnels.

Yes a big project but creates long term improved sectorisation and reduced conflicting paths.

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