V/Line trains pulled from tracks due to safety concerns

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 16 Jan 2016 13:06
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
There is a theory Metro Trains want the V/line business and are deliberately trying to  make operating for v/line harder and near impossible.  Two years ago the Metro Pommy Head went to the government and asked for V/Line to be handed over to MTR.  They also asked previously to remove trains from the Gippsland line between Packenham and flinders street.

This would mean passengers for the Gippsland line would need to change to overcrowded metro train services between the locations what lunacy!

Metro does not like v/line and does not like freight.
The problem with conspiracy theories is that history shows most of the population do not have the inteligence and mental coordination to carry them out with it blowing up in there faces.

The whole VLine situation does not look hopefull no one in the governmet has so far as far as I can see come up with any thing constructive, given the problem is very likely to be very poor managment triggered by a lack of funds to do proper maintence.

woodford
woodford
Very true about the Vline situation where the politicians and the public at large cannot see beyond the current cancellations, free travel, bustitution and late running. These are but the tip of the iceberg showing above the lack of funds, poor management, insufficient planning and inadequate maintenance. Nevertheless, these issues will be spun away sooner or later as the Vline flagship Titanic blunders on amidst the fog of lies, half truths, incompetence and spin.

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Excuse my ignorance where is Spion Kop? Yes I've searched google maps Tasmania a street in NSW and a road near the great ocean road here in Victoria
Doyle
doyle
Spion Kop today is the name of the junction of the RRL track pairs from the North Melbourne flyover and platforms 15/16 located beneath City Link near  Moonee Ponds Creek.

The earlier goods area also bore this name, which originates from a site in Africa where a number of Aussie soldiers lost  their lives in WW  1 .
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Forgive me I do not work in the rail industry but use the Vline service each day for work.

What is the exact cause of the problem?  Is is the track or is it the maintenance on the velocity sets which causes the level crossings not to work. Confused.
MetroFemme
There are two distinct issues with the V/Locity  trains :

1.  Excessive wheel and flange wear, and excessive rail wear over the North Melbourne flyover and  sharp curvature between flyover Junction and Spion Kop Junction .  Based on similar issues experienced in 1980's the likely cause is lack of flange lubrication on the curvature, coupled with soft steel wheels inter acting unfavourably with hardened steel rail heads .

2.  Activation of level crossing protection by V/locity trains .  Based on similar issues with  Sprinter tarins in 1990 ' s the likely cause is lightweight railcars, rqeuiring a device on the DMU to excite the track circuit, or installation of axle counters .

The existing track circuit actuation issue with v/Locity would ceratinly not be helped by excessively worn or out of profile wheels .
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Forgive me I do not work in the rail industry but use the Vline service each day for work.

What is the exact cause of the problem?  Is is the track or is it the maintenance on the velocity sets which causes the level crossings not to work. Confused.
There are two distinct issues with the V/Locity  trains :

1.  Excessive wheel and flange wear, and excessive rail wear over the North Melbourne flyover and  sharp curvature between flyover Junction and Spion Kop Junction .  Based on similar issues experienced in 1980's the likely cause is lack of flange lubrication on the curvature, coupled with soft steel wheels inter acting unfavourably with hardened steel rail heads .
kuldalai

...and on the Ballarat line approach and departure tracks from Sunshine and possibly other areas within the length of the RRL where there are curves.

Mike.
  woodford Chief Commissioner


The whole VLine situation does not look hopefull no one in the governmet has so far as far as I can see come up with any thing constructive, given the problem is very likely to be very poor managment triggered by a lack of funds to do proper maintence.

woodford
Very true about the Vline situation where the politicians and the public at large cannot see beyond the current cancellations, free travel, bustitution and late running. These are but the tip of the iceberg showing above the lack of funds, poor management, insufficient planning and inadequate maintenance. Nevertheless, these issues will be spun away sooner or later as the Vline flagship Titanic blunders on amidst the fog of lies, half truths, incompetence and spin.
YM-Mundrabilla

How can this all end, Sadly given the Premier (after his promise) ,the governments inaction and the oppositions incompetence. The most likely scenario for change will be a major accident in which dozens are killed. The goverment will be forced to have an enquirey that will condem them and recommend major changes they cannot ignore without them looking like murders.

There is at least two precidents for this, the Tay bridge disaster and the Kyeema DC2 disaster. Both resulted in the goverments of the day being forced into major improvements which exist till this day.

One hopes the powers to be would have enough inteligence to avoid this, given the apparent stupidity of both political parties one does wonder.....................................

woodford
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Once again Woodford has provided a balanced and considered post on what is an important and pretty emotional topic.

For ages I have been predicting a Victorian Granville and that little/nothing will be done to improve the current situation until such an incident occurs at which time everyone will run for cover big time.

Now is the time for a Royal Commission into the rail industry to cover such issues as:

  • Privatisation and everything associated with it
  • Safety
  • Maintenance
  • Efficient operation
  • Track access
  • Costs
  • Training
  • The role of the various Rail Safety Authorities and the level of their activity/inactivity
  • Auditing of asset condition, maintenance etc
  • Asset condition and stripping
  • Planning
  • Management
  • Political interference
  • Punctuality and reliability
  • Corruption, political interference and conflict of interest
  • Subsidies
  • Short cuts in design (cheapskating)
  • Other


It will not happen, of course.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Before this happens we need some heads to roll at the top but which ones ?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I agree with YM - surely a royal commission is warranted. Or at the very least an auditor-general inquiry.

And wouldn't it make sense to have an inquiry to decide which heads to roll? Anyway, if you have the commission first it's harder for them to disappear and avoid being questioned.

Not that this will ever happen, of course, because I believe everything the government tells me and I know there's nothing wrong with the rail service, just some teething issues which can be expected after more than 100 years of operation.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I agree with YM - surely a royal commission is warranted. Or at the very least an auditor-general inquiry.

And wouldn't it make sense to have an inquiry to decide which heads to roll? Anyway, if you have the commission first it's harder for them to disappear and avoid being questioned.

Not that this will ever happen, of course, because I believe everything the government tells me and I know there's nothing wrong with the rail service, just some teething issues which can be expected after more than 100 years of operation.
potatoinmymouth
Sir  Humphrey Appleby cautioned the Minister never seek an enquiry Minister before you know the outcome  !!!!
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I agree with YM - surely a royal commission is warranted. Or at the very least an auditor-general inquiry.

And wouldn't it make sense to have an inquiry to decide which heads to roll? Anyway, if you have the commission first it's harder for them to disappear and avoid being questioned.

Not that this will ever happen, of course, because I believe everything the government tells me and I know there's nothing wrong with the rail service, just some teething issues which can be expected after more than 100 years of operation.
Sir  Humphrey Appleby cautioned the Minister never seek an enquiry Minister before you know the outcome  !!!!
kuldalai
..... and that is the reason that we will not have a Royal Commission.

On the other hand we could have Jeff Kennett as the Royal Commissioner as that would overcome any negative findings/issues surrounding privatisation and what has followed.

On the other hand perhaps we could put Kennett in charge of fixing PTV. That would be more productive I think especially if it was made very public what he was there for. His ego would run riot.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
On the other hand perhaps we could put Kennett in charge of fixing PTV. That would be more productive I think especially if it was made very public what he was there for. His ego would run riot.
YM-Mundrabilla
I think that cure would be worse than the disease Laughing
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I agree with YM - surely a royal commission is warranted. Or at the very least an auditor-general inquiry.

And wouldn't it make sense to have an inquiry to decide which heads to roll? Anyway, if you have the commission first it's harder for them to disappear and avoid being questioned.

Not that this will ever happen, of course, because I believe everything the government tells me and I know there's nothing wrong with the rail service, just some teething issues which can be expected after more than 100 years of operation.
Sir  Humphrey Appleby cautioned the Minister never seek an enquiry Minister before you know the outcome  !!!!
kuldalai
Yes, An enquiry will not occur because the root of the problem is VLine does not have enough funds to maintain the fleet they have and the government DOES know this, thus if the government called and enquiry they would effectively be commiting suicide.

The only way an enquiry will occur is if we have a major accident, the public outcry will then force the goverment's hand.

woodford
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Latest news: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-25/v-line-to-run-more-services-after-delays-due-to-train-wheels/7111084

Some take-home points:
- Mr Tyrus said the network was lubricating tracks at key locations to reduce the friction on wheels.
- The Victorian Government has ordered an inquiry to investigate V/Line's performance.
  Clarke Hudswell Junior Train Controller

Just saw a P class on 3 H cars go through Kilmore East on a Down Seymour service. I don't think I have seen that in, I don't know, maybe 10 years! (I assume it was in service, it stopped at KEast)

Good on VLine for being 'proactive' (horrible word) and putting whatever they can into service to avoid any more bustitution.
  vlocity27 Junior Train Controller

Location: Pakenham
would love to see a P class run to Traralgon with H cars.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Just saw a P class on 3 H cars go through Kilmore East on a Down Seymour service. I don't think I have seen that in, I don't know, maybe 10 years! (I assume it was in service, it stopped at KEast)

Good on VLine for being 'proactive' (horrible word) and putting whatever they can into service to avoid any more bustitution.
Clarke Hudswell
I saw a 2 car Sprinter in Platform 15 on Sat afternoon running a service to Traralgon and  I thought exactly the same thing!

BG
  vlinecars V/Man - "Yeah!"

Location: Here, there, everywhere!
Just saw a P class on 3 H cars go through Kilmore East on a Down Seymour service. I don't think I have seen that in, I don't know, maybe 10 years! (I assume it was in service, it stopped at KEast)

Good on VLine for being 'proactive' (horrible word) and putting whatever they can into service to avoid any more bustitution.
Clarke Hudswell

The P and SH set were not operating a passenger service, rather, an empty cars run to Seymour and return on a test run.

There are a number of things V/Line should be doing at the moment to avoid bustitution which are definitely not being done! H sets coming in off morning peak services could run down to Traralgon and back comfortably prior to the PM peak; not happening. Sprinters being replaced by VLocities on the Seymour line to enable more Traralgon services, not happening!
  I'm Barely Online Locomotive Fireman

Just saw a P class on 3 H cars go through Kilmore East on a Down Seymour service. I don't think I have seen that in, I don't know, maybe 10 years! (I assume it was in service, it stopped at KEast)

Good on VLine for being 'proactive' (horrible word) and putting whatever they can into service to avoid any more bustitution.

The P and SH set were not operating a passenger service, rather, an empty cars run to Seymour and return on a test run.

There are a number of things V/Line should be doing at the moment to avoid bustitution which are definitely not being done! H sets coming in off morning peak services could run down to Traralgon and back comfortably prior to the PM peak; not happening. Sprinters being replaced by VLocities on the Seymour line to enable more Traralgon services, not happening!
vlinecars
V/Line administration, when it comes to solutions to a problem, even if it's a patch up just sit back and say "It's too hard to do that."
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The P and SH set were not operating a passenger service, rather, an empty cars run to Seymour and return on a test run.
probably to prove that it cannot be done....................
  stu1818 Junior Train Controller

Location: Longwarry, Victoria
Just saw a P class on 3 H cars go through Kilmore East on a Down Seymour service. I don't think I have seen that in, I don't know, maybe 10 years! (I assume it was in service, it stopped at KEast)

Good on VLine for being 'proactive' (horrible word) and putting whatever they can into service to avoid any more bustitution.
I saw a 2 car Sprinter in Platform 15 on Sat afternoon running a service to Traralgon and  I thought exactly the same thing!

BG
BrentonGolding
the 2 car sprinter on the traralgon line has been there all week. it runs the 05.27 up and the 16.58 down (2 of the services on the traralgon line actually running)
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The rumour circulating through V/Line today suggests Thursday maybe the day we see trains returning to 'normal' on the Gippsland line.

Of course it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this didn't eventuate.
  perwaynut Deputy Commissioner

Location: In the Land of the Mighty Hawks, and our favourite footy President Jeff
Another thing about those tight curves and wheel wear. With the rail being new, and I am assuming unground, the contact patch on the rail will tend to be on the gauge corner. Through the turnouts this will be further exasperated as the rails are not inclined. As the wheels track through the tight curves, this very narrow contact patch on the rail will be on the fillet (is that what's it called?) of the wheel between the wheel flange and tyre (flat?). This concentrated pressure would increase the wear rate of the flange. And those iron fillings you see on some curves, is mostly from the wheels and not the rail. Rail steel is a fair bit harder than wheel steel.

There was a trial conducted a number of years ago on Cowan Bank to see if switching the lubricators off would reduce the number of train failures due to wheelslip. The trial was halted after the rails started to be eaten quite significantly. And if the rails were wearing fast, the wheels no doubt would have been too.
The rails are inclined inwards at the same angle as the wheel so the flat of the wheel runs on the flat of the rail. ON timber sleepers the incline is provided by the sleeper plates. With concrete sleepers the rail mount itself is inclined.

What happens is this is NOT done on a line with heavy traffic is all the weight is taken as you described on the inside edge of the rail, this stress's the head of the rail where it attachs to the web and one ends with the inside edge of the rail breaking off through fatigue.

For both flanges to drag on the inside edge of the track the track must be  AT LEAST 13mm under gauge and I seriously doubt the RRL is that much under gauge. It was widely circulated that the RFR was 12mm under gauge THIS IS NOT CORRECT. I am NOT trying to be a pain in the neck here just trying to provide accurate information.

A senior manager told me the reason why the RFR is 1.5mm undergauge is the sleepers and rail unsulators were made for rail lighter than the 60kg rail used and the 1.5mm under gauging is because the head of the rail is that much wider. I do not know if this is true or not. I have been told on concrete sleepers the rail insulating pads are made interchangeable so different ones are used for rails of different weights so the gauge will be correct (the sleepers used on the NE line are this way) apparently this was not followed on the RFR sleepers.


woodford
woodford
Yep, both the rail and wheels are inclined at 1 in 20 in Australia, though this won't help much on curves below 800m radius where the self steering ability of rail wheels are lost. Once you get below 800m radius, the outside wheel will ride up against the rail. When you grind rail in a curve, you get the rail head to match up with the shape of the wheel so the rail and wheel match perfectly, reducing the pressure applied to the rail. With unground rail, the match between rail and wheel is not so perfect, creating a more concentrated pressure at the gauge corner. More pressure, more wear.

And if the track is so tight that both wheels are flanging, this is bad. Significant hunting will be the result and wheels tasting dirt and not steel will be the result.

As for the differing size of the rail head between different weight rails, this is true 60kg has a wider head then 53kg or 50kg, or 94lb. I'm sure that you can get differing size biscuits to accommodate differing rail foot widths, though I'm not sure if it changes the centreline of the rail on the rail seat.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
The rumour circulating through V/Line today suggests Thursday maybe the day we see trains returning to 'normal' on the Gippsland line.

Of course it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this didn't eventuate.
jakar
Which Thursday?

Dave
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
A66 was out hauling a Vlocity set to Dandenong account level crossing maintenance issues.



Photo: Cam Leigh Villani
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Three questions, please:

1.   What are the braking protocols on loco hauled Vlocitys?
2.   Are they able to operate normal Westinghouse air, if not what is the setup for loco haulage?
3.   Where are the locations that the current raft of wheelset/bogie replacements done?

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