Shrike Models

 
  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

"If there are, say, 150 pre-sales, for Ixion to supply them to those customers, including postage, even at Shrike's original pricing, is asking us to take a hit of 150 x $435, an amount totalling $65,250. This is totally unreasonable; we are a business, not a charity. "
Nobody is asking Ixion to give out free models to those that have pre-ordered...

The question is where is our money (with Shrike?) and shouldn't that be paid to Ixion for OUR models that we've already paid for.

If Shrike think it's over and they can just walk away and start designing the Rx, then it's on for young (not Rod) and old.

Shrike have our money and (presumably) money for the tooling that they have now sold to the mysterious unknown buyer.

Paul

PS: Yes i've got two 30T's ordered....

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  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
If Shrike think it's over and they can just walk away and start designing the Rx, then it's on for young (not Rod) and old.

Shrike have our money and (presumably) money for the tooling that they have now sold to the mysterious unknown buyer.
FirstStopCentral
As has been pointed out by Ixion & Shrike, the issue of C30T pre-order funds received by Shrike is noted and will be addressed in time. For now you, I, and the gentleman with 6 locos ordered (which may well be me, I must check...) are all unsecured creditors just as we were last week, last month, and last year. Grumbles & second guessing in various forums isn't going to make the required business decisions happen any faster.
  sydneyshortnorth Junior Train Controller

Location:
I'm not a pre-order customer of Shrike though I have watched and greatly admired what Geoff has striven to achieve over the last couple of years. Like many others I am sure, I sincerely wish him better health, lowered stress and fresh fulfilment as 2016 delivers whatever it will to each of us.

As for the unfortunate saga that's unfolding with his business, and my only exposure to it is what I'm reading here, two old truisms come to mind. While neither offers much consolation either to Geoff in his current strife or to his pre-paid customers, there may be a salutary lesson here for others harbouring similar and equally praiseworthy aspirations:

1.  When a hobby becomes a business, the world changes;

2.  This one is a bit lighter, and I've paraphrased it from (I think) an old airline industry riddle:
    "How do you make a small fortune from a model railway business?"
    "By starting out with a big one".

Chin up chaps, the sun will rise again in the morning, even if a cloudy day is forecast.

Meanwhile, best wishes to all and no animosity to anyone.

Steve
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Top post Lindsay!

People with funds invested in C30T models - go to your office of fair trading in your state/capital city NOW! They will likely direct you to the equivalent service in whatever state/territory Shrike is headquartered in.

You need to know where you stand, and if you're worried about needing a refund, best to try and secure one early, financial positions after actions like this seldom improve with time.

I am away from my or any computer so I have been doing much posting from my phone. I have questions about novation in the contracts of sale,  but it's too hard to look up the detail I need from my phone. Your fair trading or consumer affairs office may find out this info for you.

Lindsay's informative post has me thinking about who (if not Shrike) the tooling was purchased from. Think about that.
  BIG-BEAR Chief Train Controller

But I know Geoff could end up without a home and without Superannuation, if Ixion have not paid a fair price for the model. You guys do seem cool with that?

Rod Young
"comtrain"


Nobody wants to see someone loss their home etc . But when you go into business there is a risk and when you take other people's money even more of a risk .

Shrike models now don't own the tooling for NSW 30Tclass loco and no longer in control of a  production date . For some reason shrike models with their post on there facebook page think that the company is saved .

But in the real world he still has paid up customers for the NSW 30T .

I can only see two solutions .

Shrike models will cover all the extra cost for those paid up customers to Ixion prices .The word contract keeps coming up so its up to shrike models to cover extra costs

OR everyone gets a full refund .

Then Ixion models / new owner of the tooling can make the model when they wont and at there price .

With the owner of shrike models in bad health why is he thinking of doing the Rx class still and run the risk of another failed project .

All of these Rx class customers should get a full refund as well before all of the money disappears .

The info on the Shrike models website about ordering and payment for the 30T and Rx class should be taking down as well until things are sorted out .
  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

The word 'contract' does keep coming up.

We (those with paid orders) have a 'contract' with Shrike Models for the supply of (insert number here) models of a NSWGR 30T Locomotive in HO scale.

As Shrike have transferred ownership (given away or sold) of the tooling and are no longer producing the 30T, they have broken the contract and need to refund all monies paid.

Only other option is for Shrike to transfer the monies (that are currently being held in a trust, according to the law) to Ixion so that they may take up the contract with the prepaid customers for the delivery of said model.

Paul
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

The word 'contract' does keep coming up.

We (those with paid orders) have a 'contract' with Shrike Models for the supply of (insert number here) models of a NSWGR 30T Locomotive in HO scale.

As Shrike have transferred ownership (given away or sold) of the tooling and are no longer producing the 30T, they have broken the contract and need to refund all monies paid.

Only other option is for Shrike to transfer the monies (that are currently being held in a trust, according to the law) to Ixion so that they may take up the contract with the prepaid customers for the delivery of said model.

Paul
FirstStopCentral
It would be nice if the new mystery owners of the tooling identified themselves and explained if they took on liability for the pre-payed orders as part of the purchase of the tooling.
  Bills_Billboards Chief Commissioner

if someone purchases tooling off another company no matter what company it is they do not need to honor any previously placed orders with the original company but if they have purchased the company trading name as well then that would be the only time they would have to honor any pre orders  etc
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
It would be nice if the new mystery owners of the tooling identified themselves and explained if they took on liability for the pre-payed orders as part of the purchase of the tooling.
kingfisher

Look at part 3 of Ixion's post above.    
3. Ixion is not obligated to honour the pre-release sales. Any monies paid to Shrike Models constituted a contract with them, not with us.
Ixion Models

Seems pretty clear to me.  
They seem to have picked up the product from a third party, but not the customer or order books.
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

It would be nice if the new mystery owners of the tooling identified themselves and explained if they took on liability for the pre-payed orders as part of the purchase of the tooling.

Look at part 3 of Ixion's post above.    
3. Ixion is not obligated to honour the pre-release sales. Any monies paid to Shrike Models constituted a contract with them, not with us.

Seems pretty clear to me.  
They seem to have picked up the product from a third party, but not the customer or order books.
lkernan
It would still be nice to know if the agreement between Shrike and the mystery third party included the liability for pre-payed orders even if the agreement with Ixion didn't. Either way I think if the pre-orders are not honoured in some way (refund, part payment or full payment) then the model will be toxic because of a general customer backlash over the whole unsavoury affair.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Lindsay O'Reilly. Well said. It's been less than a week since we found out. And the ramifications will not be truly know for a while. At the moment the people who have money tied up will be upset, no dening that. But as you can see we do have a direct communication avenue open to us.
  figjam Beginner

I would be thinking as the molds are in the factory in china and that the same factory that ixion use may be the molds where still owned by the factory and they sold them to ixion to recover some money that shrike had not payed yet.
And that is the third party .
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
I would be thinking as the molds are in the factory in china and that the same factory that ixion use may be the molds where still owned by the factory and they sold them to ixion to recover some money that shrike had not payed yet.
And that is the third party .
figjam
And that means?
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
I would be thinking as the molds are in the factory in china and that the same factory that ixion use may be the molds where still owned by the factory and they sold them to ixion to recover some money that shrike had not payed yet.
And that is the third party .
And that means?
comtrain
I reckon that, if true, it would mean the funds of those who have paid in full (or deposits) to Shrike are down the gurgler and good luck getting anything back. But, I will happily stand corrected of course.

If no other party (second, third or beyond) is willing to honour the contract that the pre-purchasers have made with Shrike, then their only potential source of recovery would be to approach the principal/s of Shrike (Geoff and anybody else who is officially a director) and try to recover the funds from him/them. Ultimately, that may mean a claim through the small claims court.

The other potential possibility is, for those who paid by credit card, to approach their own credit card provider and seek a chargeback. Then it would be up to Shrike's bank to recover the amount from Shrike and/or it's principals.

As I've said elsewhere, I really do hope that Geoff recovers from this episode......I would say it is a valuable lesson to anybody who harbours any ambitions of being an importer/manufacturer.

Roachie
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

I would be thinking as the molds are in the factory in china and that the same factory that ixion use may be the molds where still owned by the factory and they sold them to ixion to recover some money that shrike had not payed yet.
And that is the third party .
And that means?
I reckon that, if true, it would mean the funds of those who have paid in full (or deposits) to Shrike are down the gurgler and good luck getting anything back. But, I will happily stand corrected of course.

If no other party (second, third or beyond) is willing to honour the contract that the pre-purchasers have made with Shrike, then their only potential source of recovery would be to approach the principal/s of Shrike (Geoff and anybody else who is officially a director) and try to recover the funds from him/them. Ultimately, that may mean a claim through the small claims court.

The other potential possibility is, for those who paid by credit card, to approach their own credit card provider and seek a chargeback. Then it would be up to Shrike's bank to recover the amount from Shrike and/or it's principals.

As I've said elsewhere, I really do hope that Geoff recovers from this episode......I would say it is a valuable lesson to anybody who harbours any ambitions of being an importer/manufacturer.

Roachie
Roachie
Payment by credit card was not a payment option made available by Shrike.
  2LaGrange Train Controller

With the statement that the tooling has now been sold to another party we can assume maybe the tooling hadnt even been paid for in full or that Shrike had no funds to pay for production.
Most likley the unannounced purchaser of tooling from Shrike before Ixion became the new owner is in fact the original owner the factory that was producing models. A complete mess with most likley all pre payers to loose their money as others have stated.
First there was a dreamer.
Then there were the true believers.
Now there is just the losers.
The true Aussie Battler the consumer loses out as usual.
Happy to be wrong on these thoughts but i doubt it.
  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
As I've said elsewhere, I really do hope that Geoff recovers from this episode......I would say it is a valuable lesson to anybody who harbours any ambitions of being an importer/manufacturer.

Roachie
Roachie
Well said Bill.  What's a few hundred bucks for a loco that will never come compared to losing everything one had ventured to produce a model for modellers' enjoyment?  Good luck for the future Geoff.
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

With the statement that the tooling has now been sold to another party we can assume maybe the tooling hadnt even been paid for in full or that Shrike had no funds to pay for production.
Most likley the unannounced purchaser of tooling from Shrike before Ixion became the new owner is in fact the original owner the factory that was producing models. A complete mess with most likley all pre payers to loose their money as others have stated.
First there was a dreamer.
Then there were the true believers.
Now there is just the losers.
The true Aussie Battler the consumer loses out as usual.
Happy to be wrong on these thoughts but i doubt it.
2LaGrange
Someone is clearly being economical with the truth here. On the Shrike Facebook page on February 12 in reply to someone asking if the pre-payed orders will be honoured by Ixion, Geoff Hope clearly states “We have that agreement, I am not going to say more. Legal requirements preclude it” but then in point three of the comment by Lindsay O’Reilly from Ixion on this thread later the same day he said “Ixion is not obligated to honour the pre-release sales. Any monies paid to Shrike Models constituted a contract with them, not with us.
Clearly the two statements are not compatible with each other and those who have pre-payed have every right to have this debacle sorted out ASAP.
  TheFish Chief Train Controller

Location: Pyongyang
I would be thinking as the molds are in the factory in china and that the same factory that ixion use may be the molds where still owned by the factory and they sold them to ixion to recover some money that shrike had not payed yet.
And that is the third party .
And that means?
I reckon that, if true, it would mean the funds of those who have paid in full (or deposits) to Shrike are down the gurgler and good luck getting anything back. But, I will happily stand corrected of course.

If no other party (second, third or beyond) is willing to honour the contract that the pre-purchasers have made with Shrike, then their only potential source of recovery would be to approach the principal/s of Shrike (Geoff and anybody else who is officially a director) and try to recover the funds from him/them. Ultimately, that may mean a claim through the small claims court.

The other potential possibility is, for those who paid by credit card, to approach their own credit card provider and seek a chargeback. Then it would be up to Shrike's bank to recover the amount from Shrike and/or it's principals.

As I've said elsewhere, I really do hope that Geoff recovers from this episode......I would say it is a valuable lesson to anybody who harbours any ambitions of being an importer/manufacturer.

Roachie
Payment by credit card was not a payment option made available by Shrike.
kingfisher
Is it possible for those of us who have paid money via internet banking to get our bank to take action then?
  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
What is the relevance of payed in this context?

Meaning:
seal (the deck or seams of a wooden ship) with pitch or tar to prevent leakage.
"an open groove between the planks had to be payed by running in hot pitch from a special ladle"

Do the various posters of payed mean paid?


Sorry I don't want to be a language Nazi, but makes me wonder when I see things like "where" when obviously "were" is intended and needless confusion of there, their and they're.

I suppose these things slip past Spell Check, so the loss of basic schooling that I benefited from 60 years ago shows through.

I stand ready for all the brick bats.  Throw all you like at me, but please treat our language more kindly. Rolling Eyes

Best wishes,
John
  brissim Chief Train Controller

I'm sorry but there's still something in this rather sad story I still don't have the answer to. Were the 6-wheel tender versions of the C30T ever produced and delivered as claimed as recently as the Feb 2016 AMRM?

Tony
  BIG-BEAR Chief Train Controller

I wonder if the Rx class customers money went into the NSW 30T project .
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

I'm sorry but there's still something in this rather sad story I still don't have the answer to. Were the 6-wheel tender versions of the C30T ever produced and delivered as claimed as recently as the Feb 2016 AMRM?

Tony
brissim

I certainly do not know of anyone who has ever seen one, nor anybody who has one.

The term "optimistic advertising" comes to mind

Craig W
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I have a friend, he worked for a software company. The company got into difficulty, the source code was sold to a third party and the company went bust, corporate customers lost dollars and staff miss some pay. The money that's missing won't appear because the company has no assets.

The third party sold the source code to another company who completed the project and noe have it in the market.

The third party was a principle of the busted company.

That's all I can post.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I'm sorry but there's still something in this rather sad story I still don't have the answer to. Were the 6-wheel tender versions of the C30T ever produced and delivered as claimed as recently as the Feb 2016 AMRM?

Tony
brissim

I certainly do not know of anyone who has ever seen one, nor anybody who has one.

The term "optimistic advertising" comes to mind

Craig W
"CraigW"

As I see it there are three options, most to least likely they are:
- The models are located just over half way along the line drawn from Jimmy Hoffa to Flight 19.
- The models are in the cargo hold of MH-370.
- The models never existed in completed form.

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