Orient Express - SAR Glenelg Centenary Cars

 
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.


http://www.orientexpressmodels.com.au/OER/index.htm has sample pics of the next OER project, the model can be seen at this weekends Caulfield exhibition on the Orient Express stall.

Sponsored advertisement

  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Now before all you serious Victorian modellers race in to buy some to put behind a X class or something forget it. These are models of the ex Glenelg cars and were too wide to travel interstate. However if and when someone does the longer and narrower  Centenary cars you can go and get some of them. These Orient Express models are models of the widest passenger cars in Australia and they very rarely if ever went interstate.

These cars struck platforms here at speed and Victoria has or had closer platforms than SA used!

They are going to be excellent models of these cars though, so for SAR modellers they are a God send.
Also good if you just want some different type of passenger car on a freelanced layout!
  patsstuffnow Junior Train Controller

Now before all you serious Victorian modellers race in to buy some to put behind a X class or something forget it. These are models of the ex Glenelg cars and were too wide to travel interstate. However if and when someone does the longer and narrower  Centenary cars you can go and get some of them. These Orient Express models are models of the widest passenger cars in Australia and they very rarely if ever went interstate.

These cars struck platforms here at speed and Victoria has or had closer platforms than SA used!

They are going to be excellent models of these cars though, so for SAR modellers they are a God send.
Also good if you just want some different type of passenger car on a freelanced layout!
David Peters

David, before you get too excited and build another myth take a grip.
These HO scale models are sized to go on HO gauge bogies which are closer to standard gauge than broad gauge. All HO scale models are compromises in the bogie section so your comment is actually somewhat irrelevant. In addition how many modellers are using "accurate scale curves" And have you actually built your station platforms etc to an accurate loading gauge? ..... Or just built it so it clears????? ......  
In the real world and 1/1 scale 520 and 621 were unable to get to Melbourne.  But in the HO scale world there are a lot of Roundhouse converted cars, ( built to conform to American loading gauges) Big Boy locos, Brass 520's and Converted American steam locos with wider prototypes than Aussie ones. Never heard of any of them being problems on any Victorian layouts that I have seen,  and never heard of any Victorians having problems either.  There are several Commonwealth Railways carriages and some wagons that were built to a wider loading gauge than the SAR loading gauge.  Have you measured the actual profile of these carriages and compared it to any of the popular standards like NRMA ets, etc , etc ? There are also many grossly overwidth bogies already on layouts that seem to run ok on layouts all over the world, think of Hornby bogies etc over the years !!!!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Actually, you should probably read David's post more as a cautionary to 'people of the far east' thinking that these are replications of cars that visited them, they are not, for reasons outlined by David. He was not suggesting they won't run on your layout, as fairly clearly stated in the last line of his post. He was posting on prototype not practicality.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Actually, you should probably read David's post more as a cautionary to 'people of the far east' thinking that these are replications of cars that visited them, they are not, for reasons outlined by David. He was not suggesting they won't run on your layout, as fairly clearly stated in the last line of his post. He was posting on prototype not practicality.
"Aaron"


I wasn't aware that any Centenary cars travelled to Melbourne....

In 1954 some steam hauled suburban cars were used for the Royal Visit but these were the old Thow side door cars and modifications of those, not Centenary cars, at least in the photos I saw.

I don't think it was a common practice at any time.

But for model purposes, one Centenary car looks like another, particularly when there is no real alternative...

M636C
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Actually, you should probably read David's post more as a cautionary to 'people of the far east' thinking that these are replications of cars that visited them, they are not, for reasons outlined by David. He was not suggesting they won't run on your layout, as fairly clearly stated in the last line of his post. He was posting on prototype not practicality.
Aaron
Yes that is exactly what I meant Aaron prototypically you could not use them, however that does not stop you using them on your layout if you wish to, it is called modellers license and a lot of us use it at times!


Some have been to Albury I think on scout specials years ago!
  allan Chief Commissioner

Removed/deleted the personal attack on David Peters, not tolerated here ar Railpage.

So that will explain the following post, thar  replied to the now deleted post that went before.      Dthead, Moderator






Hey guys, we're getting a bit precious, here.

In essence, David stated, correctly, that these cars were out of gauge for the VR.

Others have suggested that the models will likely run without difficulty on most VR layouts, prototypically correct or not.

I'm not quite sure what the American loading gauge has to do with this discussion, but even Trailertrain 85' flatcars were able to run in SA, North of Islington!

And, yes, there's an awful lot of Roundhouse passenger cars painted in green and cream running on SA layouts, because they are a practical solution to a problem. They are no less accurate than Lima IP cars, or BGB 500 and 600 (aka K set) cars, which are way over scale...

Interesting, too, is a "traditional" DP critic speaking up in his defence, if only because, this time, DP is right.

Model railways are fun, and what you do on your pike is your business...

Above all, enjoy!!!!!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
In modern society we no longer have traditional roles... I'll agree with anyone that's right!
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
Order form and carriage/livery information at http://www.orientexpressmodels.com.au/OER/OER_Cent.htm
  Bob K Station Master

Location: East of Port Pirie
Hi all,

Can anybody tell me what loco/s would have pulled these centenary cars in real life please.

Bob
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
Hi all,

Can anybody tell me what loco/s would have pulled these centenary cars in real life please.

Bob
Bob K
Pretty much any of the SAR locos. Clear steam candidates would be P-class, F-class, R(Rx)-classes, S-class, L-class, Q-class, 500's, 600's, 700's (including 710&740-classes), 720-class, 620-class, 520-class...... AND many more...

In the Diesel era, 500/800/830/900/930-classes. I'm not so sure about the 700 class as the Centenary carriages were likely out of service by then. Basically, it will be a little dependent on your modelling era if you have "an era".

By the way, they were Broad Gauge only! So all narrow gauge and standard gauge locos are excluded. (except maybe the Tx-class locos???)

So... quite a few locos to choose from!

Cheers,

Dan
  Bob K Station Master

Location: East of Port Pirie
Thanks Dan, much appreciated.

All the info on google spoke about the centenary cars themselves (obviously) but nothing about what or who pulled them. From your list I have an Rx and a 700 class so I can concentrate on saving up for the cars.

Bob
  M636C Minister for Railways

Hi all,

Can anybody tell me what loco/s would have pulled these centenary cars in real life please.

Bob
Bob K
If you were planning to get the original 1936 Centenary Train, 620 itself was painted green to haul this train, as was 609 for use while 620 was on exhibition in Adelaide. I imagine other 600 class hauled the train as well, and possibly 621 which was also painted green.

M636C
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
I seem to have stored my Convention notes with the Centenary article somewhere very safe.

Can anyone describe the time frame differences between the three non-centenary paint schemes (plain cream windows, with pinstripe and green painted window arches)?  A quick look through Google images indicates that car 313 in the NRM has the plain windows, and at least a couple of Steamranger's cars have green painted window arches.

So it's less clear what the color scheme was in the 50's and 60's (prior to their retirement) unless of course one of their caretakers preferred an older scheme!
  Bob K Station Master

Location: East of Port Pirie
Re the paint schemes around the windows, I have rung OE and spoken to Fred who advised he following.

Green painted window arches - early 50's

Pin stripe - until mid 60's

Cream window band - mid 60's until retirement.

He did say many cars would have had paint schemes that overlapped over time, as the cars could not be painted the same in one hit.

As I don't know, I can only pass on what Fred told me.

Hope this helps.
Bob
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Re the paint schemes around the windows, I have rung OE and spoken to Fred who advised he following.

Green painted window arches - early 50's

Pin stripe - until mid 60's

Cream window band - mid 60's until retirement.
Bob K

Cheers Bob!  It appears that someone at SteamRanger prefers the green painted arches scheme!
  Bob K Station Master

Location: East of Port Pirie
Hi,

Fred did say that, it was up to who ever the painter was at SteamRanger. I have been trying to research this for you and myself, quite a few photo's but no dates attached.

Bob
  MarkerLamp Beginner

Location: Thirlmere NSW
Hi All.

SAR523, sent you a PM re a copy of the convention article. Let me know if you would like a scanned copy.

Visited the National Library in Canberra seeking evidence/confirmation via the John Buckland railway collection.

Centenary train aside, the "centenary cars" post the centenary celebrations sported dark green window arches and a pin stripe. The images I viewed date from 1938/39.

It would appear from photographic evidence that this livery carried over to the 1950's. The cream window band would appear to date from the 1960's.

Fred advises that the green arch painted centenary car models will carry a pin stripe ie models OR450, OR451 and OR457. Model OR452 is correct for Steamranger ie no pin stripe with green arches.

Trust this helps.

Cheers

Markerlamp.
  Bob K Station Master

Location: East of Port Pirie
Hi,

Thanks for this info, confirms what Fred told me. I might ring him and suggest that he puts the basic era of the window colour schemes against the centenary car model details on his website, as there are probably others with the same queries.

Bob
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Thanks MarkerLamp for the offer of the notes.  However I found my electronic copy of the notes.  The pertinent passages would appear to be

"The vertical timber strips
between each window and the
timber arch above each window
were also painted Hawthorn
green. Each timber strip between
the windows had a small crown
shaped moulding, which was
painted gold until the simplified
paint scheme of the late 1940s. A
thin cream pinstripe, about half
an inch wide, ran just under the
window line around the whole
car. Roof and underframe were
black with Hawthorn green
paintout in the recessed section
of the clerestory roof."

...

"The mid 1960s saw both types
of car lose the thin cream pinstripe
under the window line and a few
of the cars, mainly the converted
Suburban cars, had their internal
woodwork painted over.
The cars operated by Steam-
Ranger today have since been
repainted in the original 1936
Centenary paint scheme again,
minus the state emblem, lettering
and pinstripe."

Which seems to indicate that the pinstripe was added much earlier than the 50s or 60s, but otherwise from what OER offers it's Green painted arches from 1936, pinstripes added some time later after they moved to a cream window band, followed by losing the pinstripe.

I like Bob K's suggestion of asking Fred to ask what period he thinks the photos are from!
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.

Revised colour samples have been posted to http://www.orientexpressmodels.com.au/OER/

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: Bob K, SAR523

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.