When were the Wegeman and Japanese carriages last used?

 
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
Could anyone tell me when the Wegeman and the similar looking Japanese carriages were last used by the Commonwealth Railways/Australian National/Great Southern Rail? eg What year?

Were some painted up for use on the Ghan? And if so have any photos been taken?

Thanks in advance.

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  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
I'll give this a nudge - if only to prompt someone into replying and telling me I'm wrong.

I have a pic of some in use on the Ghan in 1989, but my cataloguing system is non existent so don't ask me to find it. Definitely painted silver, but would need to check whether it had Ghan branding or not.

Looking at some pics of mine of the Ghan from 1994 there appear to be no Wegmann's in the consist, but it's not conclusive.
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
Wegemen cars were used on the narrow gauge Ghan. Apart from that I am unsure.
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
Wegemen cars were used on the narrow gauge Ghan. Apart from that I am unsure.
Rodo

That is not entirely correct.

The Wegmann's were introduced on standard gauge for the Trans Australian. But over time, they moved from one gauge to the other and back again.

Have a look at this website http://www.comrails.com/cr_carriages/y_wegmann.html  which will give you a good starting point. Then you can drill down into the different classes of carriages.

Cheers,

Dan
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The Wegmann cars in their heyday were magnificent in their internal finish (although nothing that Newport could not have produced). The inlaid woodwork featured in the AFA first class lounge cars was a work of art.
Sadly these cars were allowed to deteriorate over the years as Comeng cars were delivered.
An externally very cosmetically rundown DC 94 was in use on the Port Augusta breakdown train in July 1997 but be assured everything (airconditioning/stoves/refrigeration/hot water etc) worked perfectly and continuously for around a fortnight at that time.
  M636C Minister for Railways

I'll give this a nudge - if only to prompt someone into replying and telling me I'm wrong.

I have a pic of some in use on the Ghan in 1989, but my cataloguing system is non existent so don't ask me to find it. Definitely painted silver, but would need to check whether it had Ghan branding or not.

Looking at some pics of mine of the Ghan from 1994 there appear to be no Wegmann's in the consist, but it's not conclusive.
bingley hall
Assuming that you are talking about the refurbished Ghan with red and yellow stripes. my recollection is that there were Comeng built BA class sitting cars (five?) and a single Comeng AFB class lounge car used on the Ghan.

ARE 101 was attached to the Parkeston breakdown train in 1994.

The Spirit of the West used the observation car EI 84 and an HRGA power van until 2006

M636C
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
...........ARE 101 was attached to the Parkeston breakdown train in 1994...........

M636C
M636C
ARE 101 wasn't at Mundrabilla in 1997.

The Parkeston breakdown train consisted of AZFF 4K, ARH 159, DE 176 and BRFD 163 plus an HRD relay van whose number I haven't got.

There were also a few other short 'odds and sods' equipment flats and vans plus the Wreckmaster wagon and a gin of diesel and a gin of water.
  cpdbear Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Could anyone tell me when the Wegeman and the similar looking Japanese carriages were last used by the Commonwealth Railways/Australian National/Great Southern Rail? eg What year?

Were some painted up for use on the Ghan? And if so have any photos been taken?

Thanks in advance.
GeoffreyHansen
I am assuming you are asking about the standard gauge Ghan. Without actually looking it up, I don't remember any of the Wegmann cars or the Jap cars got used on the S.G. Ghan. By the time it got in S.G. (that's in 1980) they had all been relegated to accident trains or lesser services.

The cars you are likely thinking of are the steel Comeng built cars. They are very similar in appearance (they have road numbers in the range 132 to 163 - with some exceptions). The BA class situp cars and some lounge cars got painted grey with the Ghan stripes along the windows. They lastest on the Ghan up until the refurbishment was completed in 1989.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Could anyone tell me when the Wegeman and the similar looking Japanese carriages were last used by the Commonwealth Railways/Australian National/Great Southern Rail? eg What year?

Were some painted up for use on the Ghan? And if so have any photos been taken?

Thanks in advance.
I am assuming you are asking about the standard gauge Ghan. Without actually looking it up, I don't remember any of the Wegmann cars or the Jap cars got used on the S.G. Ghan. By the time it got in S.G. (that's in 1980) they had all been relegated to accident trains or lesser services.

The cars you are likely thinking of are the steel Comeng built cars. They are very similar in appearance (they have road numbers in the range 132 to 163 - with some exceptions). The BA class situp cars and some lounge cars got painted grey with the Ghan stripes along the windows. They lastest on the Ghan up until the refurbishment was completed in 1989.
cpdbear
Just by chance Graham Nixon posted a pic today of the Ghan on the SARE Facebook page showing a BA and DD still in use in July 1990.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Just by chance Graham Nixon posted a pic today of the Ghan on the SARE Facebook page showing a BA and DD still in use in July 1990.
"bingley hall"


I seem to recall seeing the DD in Ghan colours in storage, maybe in Port Pirie. It is perhaps worth pointing out that The Comeng steel passenger cars were all 10' 3-1/2" wide and were not suitable for use in NSW or Victoria, so using them on (and painting them for) the Ghan where clearances were not a problem made sense.

M636C
  M636C Minister for Railways

We haven't said much about the Kinki Sharyo cars yet...

The passenger cars were all second class sleeping cars, BRD 110 to 113 and sleeper lounges BRFC 114 and 115.

These replaced the Wegmann cars which had four berth compartments

The Japanese cars were effectively replaced by the BRG and BRJ Comeng stainless steel cars, more of which were purchased than were needed.

A couple of them are still at Spencer Junction, not having moved since 1990.

There were three power vans, HRGB 116 and 117 and HRGC 119 which was a conversion from HRD while still new.:

There were four HRDs 118 to 121 which were the first HRDs built


Like Bing my photos are not that well organised:

But I have some photos of HRGB 116, freshly painted silver, on the standard gauge Overland.
I believe HRGC 119 was used on the Overland at more or less the same time in the early 2000s

HRGC 119 was extensively used by Freight Australia on the SCT trains until they bought their own modified HRDs around 2004.

But HRGC 119 (and maybe HRGB 116) would have been the last Japanese cars in passenger service with GSR.

M636C
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Just by chance Graham Nixon posted a pic today of the Ghan on the SARE Facebook page showing a BA and DD still in use in July 1990.


I seem to recall seeing the DD in Ghan colours in storage, maybe in Port Pirie. It is perhaps worth pointing out that The Comeng steel passenger cars were all 10' 3-1/2" wide and were not suitable for use in NSW or Victoria, so using them on (and painting them for) the Ghan where clearances were not a problem made sense.

M636C
M636C
Exactly which Comeng steel passenger cars were all 10' 3-1/2" wide and were not suitable for use in NSW or Victoria as they would have to have been delivered from Sydney by rail either through NSW or Vic if pre standard gauge west of Broken Hill?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
We haven't said much about the Kinki Sharyo cars yet...

The passenger cars were all second class sleeping cars, BRD 110 to 113 and sleeper lounges BRFC 114 and 115.

These replaced the Wegmann cars which had four berth compartments

The Japanese cars were effectively replaced by the BRG and BRJ Comeng stainless steel cars, more of which were purchased than were needed.

A couple of them are still at Spencer Junction, not having moved since 1990.

There were three power vans, HRGB 116 and 117 and HRGC 119 which was a conversion from HRD while still new.:

There were four HRDs 118 to 121 which were the first HRDs built


Like Bing my photos are not that well organised:

But I have some photos of HRGB 116, freshly painted silver, on the standard gauge Overland.
I believe HRGC 119 was used on the Overland at more or less the same time in the early 2000s

HRGC 119 was extensively used by Freight Australia on the SCT trains until they bought their own modified HRDs around 2004.

But HRGC 119 (and maybe HRGB 116) would have been the last Japanese cars in passenger service with GSR.

M636C
M636C
I agree that there were too many BRG/BRJs built. As economy twins the BRD/BRG/BRJs were/are OK for couples but not so good for travel with strangers over long distances, in some ways they were worse (more cramped) than the BRB 4 berth cars in my view.
The 'bright idea' at the time was to use BRG/BRJs as economy twinettes or first class roomettes. The sole variation being that when used as first class roomettes there would be loose laid carpets on the floor. Their more modern (spartan/economy class) decor did not help when compared with the Wegmann cars.
The fact that the true first class roomettes of the time, the AREs, had fitted carpets and at least gave the appearance of being more spacious without the top berth reducing headroom and the second seat taking up space was ignored.
It was clear that these dual class cars would result in legitimate passenger complaints however my views were 'well and unfavourably known' and ignored at the time.
It was clear that 'proper' first class roomettes were needed and it was suggested that more ARJs should replace some of the BRJs. The BRG/BRJs also had a capacity reduction of 2 when compared with the AREs.
The rest is history.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Exactly which Comeng steel passenger cars were all 10' 3-1/2" wide and were not suitable for use in NSW or Victoria as they would have to have been delivered from Sydney by rail either through NSW or Vic if pre standard gauge west of Broken Hill?
"petan


The cars were:
BRE 132-135
DD136
AFB 137
BA 147-151
DD156
AFB 157-158
ARH 159
BRE 160-162
BRFD 163

ARH 159 was originally ordered as an ARFA sleeper observation.

These were all delivered by rail via Victoria as out of gauge loads.

I have (somewhere) a photo of two BRE cars in Clyde yards coupled to an SHG brakevan marked "Caution- Out of Gauge load" with diagonal stripes on each end.

Comeng also built HRE and HRD vans but these were 9' 8-1/2" wide.

M636C
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Exactly which Comeng steel passenger cars were all 10' 3-1/2" wide and were not suitable for use in NSW or Victoria as they would have to have been delivered from Sydney by rail either through NSW or Vic if pre standard gauge west of Broken Hill?
The cars were:BRE 132-135 DD136 AFB 137 BA 147-151 DD156 AFB 157-158 ARH 159 BRE 160-162 BRFD 163 ARH 159 was originally ordered as an ARFA sleeper observation. These were all delivered by rail via Victoria as out of gauge loads.
I have (somewhere) a photo of two BRE cars in Clyde yards coupled to an SHG brakevan marked "Caution- Out of Gauge load" with diagonal stripes on each end. Comeng also built HRE and HRD vans but these were 9' 8-1/2" wide. M636C
Thanks Peter for the update. In checking this I came across your 1997 ARHS Bulletin data on the Wegmann cars P.206/207 referring to P.81 of same issue so thanks for that as well as that is a topic of interest for me. I also use John Beckhaus' Australian Railways Passenger Fleet 1997 in the Oct 1998 ARHS Bulletin. Probably time I rechecked the Comeng books as well.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Thanks Peter for the update. In checking this I came across your 1997 ARHS Bulletin data on the Wegmann cars P.206/207 referring to P.81 of same issue so thanks for that as well as that is a topic of interest for me. I also use John Beckhaus' Australian Railways Passenger Fleet 1997 in the Oct 1998 ARHS Bulletin. Probably time I rechecked the Comeng books as well.
petan
The appropriate volume of the Comeng books (maybe vol 3?) includes small diagrams of some of the CR mild steel cars.

The Comeng second class sleeping cars had smaller windows (reduced in height) than the Japanese second class sleeping cars.

This was because some light was visible from the upper berth when lowered giving a flickering effect although the gap was too small to see through. All the Comeng sleeping cars had the small windows, as did ARH 159 although this wouldn't have been a problem in a Twinette.

The dining and lounge cars had the tall windows introduced by the German cars and you had to check the code and number (or detail of the end structure) to tell them apart.

Genessee and Wyoming recently completely rebuilt ECA 98, once an ARF sleeper observation, as a crew car with smaller windows. It might be the last Wegmann car in daily use (on the Wirrida trains in January).
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
Just noticed there are 3 CR steel coaches sitting in a paddock next to the road into Pt. Pirie. Does anyone know which cars they were?
  M636C Minister for Railways

Just noticed there are 3 CR steel coaches sitting in a paddock next to the road into Pt. Pirie. Does anyone know which cars they were?
Alco_Haulic

Possibly the three cars from the "train" once preserved at Port Pirie Mary Elie St station...

I think there were two dining cars and a lounge car. At least one diner was a Wegmann.

To return to an earlier post, I checked for photos of HRGB 116.

It was at Keswick in August 2004 and on the Overland in January 2006, so at least one Kinki Sharyo car was in use only ten years ago.

M636C
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
If interested in the cars from Kinki Sharyo Company of Osaka, Japan try http://www.comrails.com/cr_carriages/r_brd.html#brd110

EDIT;  I see the Japanese cars are fully described above by M636C although I'll leave my post as it has the other URL
  M636C Minister for Railways

If interested in the cars from Kinki Sharyo Company of Osaka, Japan try http://www.comrails.com/cr_carriages/r_brd.html#brd110

EDIT;  I see the Japanese cars are fully described above by M636C although I'll leave my post as it has the other URL
petan
I might comment that while the reference to HRGB 116 in Chris' site may well be correct (in that it was sold to a group in Geelong in 1999), it was definitely in use by GSR in both mid 2004 and early 2006.

It might be that the sale fell through and the car was obtained by GSR, or that it never left Keswick and was leased to GSR.

However, I can only say that when I saw it in service in 2004 I was amazed. I only got the number because my DSLR's resolution allowed me (much later) to enlarge the photo enough to read the number.

At least one of the surviving Kinki Sharyo sleeping cars in Spencer Junction yard still has an air suspension bogie which was the first use of that technology in Australia. Perhaps the National Railway Musuem could find space for the bogie if not the whole car.

These cars can be photographed from the road alongside the yard (with a suitable telephoto lens) without needing to trespass.

M636C

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