Alstom to supply more X’Trapolis EMUs to Melbourne

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 May 2016 11:25
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I am thinking now this must have come from the budget but may have been missed by the media.  Goods news however.

Good news for commuters and good news for Ballarat.

Purely for my own edification is Alstom North Ballarat?

Alstom to supply more X’Trapolis EMUs to Melbourne

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  shaun001 Station Master

I read about this last week but it certainly has been a quiet announcement.
Yet another order of 5 X'Traps to make 10 in total. Good announcement.... depending on where you live!
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Where will they be going though? Are there any Comengs left on the Hillside lines?
  onyx Locomotive Fireman

Where will they be going though? Are there any Comengs left on the Hillside lines?
TOQ-1

The Cross City group lines? I know that was the plan a while back, I've got no idea what every came about from it though, other than that one token X'Trapolis service on the Frankston Line.
  shaun001 Station Master

There was an article in the Age last month in relation to the delay of more X'Trapolis trains being delivered to the Frankston Line.

http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/newest-fastest-trains-for-frankston-line-slow-to-arrive-20160404-gny29q.html
  Madjikthise Assistant Commissioner

There was an article in the Age last month in relation to the delay of more X'Trapolis trains being delivered to the Frankston Line.

http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/newest-fastest-trains-for-frankston-line-slow-to-arrive-20160404-gny29q.html
shaun001
They claim it will be faster. Will there be different timetables for X-trap, Siemens and Comeng trains? Rolling Eyes
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
While I enjoy a ride on the Seimens trains and I quite like the Comengs, I've never been much of a fan of X-Traps and I got the impression they weren't especially popular with most people who post here either.

So why the thrill at getting more of the wretched things? Question
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
So why the thrill at getting more of the wretched things? Confused
Bogong
Because they've still got a production line running for them. It's a lot easier to keep it running than to get a new production line established for a small order of trains before the HCMT tender is awarded.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Thanks Lance, that makes sense... but I'm worried that the new "High Capacity" train will turn out to be political spin for a derivative of the X-Trap with less seats and more standing room. Sad
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Me too Bogong.
That being said, South Africa's state operated suburban service in Johannesburg (I think) has recently selected an order of Xtrapolis Mega (or something) and these look like a significantly beefed up Xtrapolis from Melbourne. They could be quite something... Let's hope that a proper tender is put out and we get some quality vehicles! With the distance these trains will be travelling good suspension, and comfortable seating will be key!
Let's hope that longitudinal seating doesn't become the norm...
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
is any maintenance on rollingstock completed at Alstom?
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I'd be happier if we started to end our reliance on off-the-shelf European designed suburban sets and started re-developing our own sets suited to Australian conditions. My personal opinion is that both the Siemens sets and X'Traps have been a bit of a failure, not to mention incompatible holdovers from the privatisation days.  I know that Bombardier has been building new suburban sets, like Adelaide's A-Class which are based on the VLocity design - surely these might be suitable...?  Bombardier have also been building similar sets for Perth and I think they've been sourcing sets from a factory in India for Brisbane?

Anyway, I know the new South Africa X'Traps are being built, but they seem to be a generic design from Alstom. Check out this X'Trap version that has been running in Valparaiso, Chile. There are some distinct similarities to the Melbourne version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5S-DbvHABE
  mejhammers1 Deputy Commissioner

I'd be happier if we started to end our reliance on off-the-shelf European designed suburban sets and started re-developing our own sets suited to Australian conditions. My personal opinion is that both the Siemens sets and X'Traps have been a bit of a failure, not to mention incompatible holdovers from the privatisation days.  I know that Bombardier has been building new suburban sets, like Adelaide's A-Class which are based on the VLocity design - surely these might be suitable...?  Bombardier have also been building similar sets for Perth and I think they've been sourcing sets from a factory in India for Brisbane?

Anyway, I know the new South Africa X'Traps are being built, but they seem to be a generic design from Alstom. Check out this X'Trap version that has been running in Valparaiso, Chile. There are some distinct similarities to the Melbourne version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5S-DbvHABE
jdekorte
Yes I agree. It is rather annoying that the Metro system gets the most basic, cheapest off the shelf trains whilst the Country commuter services get expensive bespoke diesel multiple units costing $6 Million per car.

I fear a political position will be made as regards to HCMT. Why aren't EMU's being made for Victoria at Dandenong, by simply leveraging off the Adelaide order. Because the Xtraps (crap trains) are made in Ballarat and they have 2 marginal seats, thats why.

Michael
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Yes I agree. It is rather annoying that the Metro system gets the most basic, cheapest off the shelf trains whilst the Country commuter services get expensive bespoke diesel multiple units costing $6 Million per car.

I fear a political position will be made as regards to HCMT. Why aren't EMU's being made for Victoria at Dandenong, by simply leveraging off the Adelaide order. Because the Xtraps (crap trains) are made in Ballarat and they have 2 marginal seats, thats why.

Michael
mejhammers1
Aren't the X'Traps made in Poland then shipped to Ballarat for final assembly & finishing? I realise that like the shipyards, Andrews is trying to keep the train pipeline going by sticking with Alstom, not it's not a great product.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
One would have to wonder whether a better price could be obtained by a substantial order to whoever rather than the current drip feed arrangements with a builder who has (in reality or perception) a monopoly?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Alstom in Ballarat has completed refurbishments only maintenance of trains must be done at Metro ?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Yes I agree. It is rather annoying that the Metro system gets the most basic, cheapest off the shelf trains whilst the Country commuter services get expensive bespoke diesel multiple units costing $6 Million per car.

I fear a political position will be made as regards to HCMT. Why aren't EMU's being made for Victoria at Dandenong, by simply leveraging off the Adelaide order. Because the Xtraps (crap trains) are made in Ballarat and they have 2 marginal seats, thats why.

Michael
Aren't the X'Traps made in Poland then shipped to Ballarat for final assembly & finishing? I realise that like the shipyards, Andrews is trying to keep the train pipeline going by sticking with Alstom, not it's not a great product.
jdekorte
The shells are made in France, with most of the assembly and fit out taking place in Ballarat
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Yes I agree. It is rather annoying that the Metro system gets the most basic, cheapest off the shelf trains whilst the Country commuter services get expensive bespoke diesel multiple units costing $6 Million per car.

I fear a political position will be made as regards to HCMT. Why aren't EMU's being made for Victoria at Dandenong, by simply leveraging off the Adelaide order. Because the Xtraps (crap trains) are made in Ballarat and they have 2 marginal seats, thats why.

Michael
Aren't the X'Traps made in Poland then shipped to Ballarat for final assembly & finishing? I realise that like the shipyards, Andrews is trying to keep the train pipeline going by sticking with Alstom, not it's not a great product.
jdekorte
What is wrong with the basic Comeng carbody but with proper airconditioning, better bogies, modern traction, braking and control equipment and 2 x 2 seating. The broad design, jigs, setup and some construction experience, at least, must still remain or have the beancounters burnt the design, scrapped the jigs and retrenched the experience?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
One would have to wonder whether a better price could be obtained by a substantial order to whoever rather than the current drip feed arrangements with a builder who has (in reality or perception) a monopoly?
YM-Mundrabilla
If memory serves me right, Siemens was a bidder for the first new Xtraps order contract as well. Alstom won the tender and because they still have the production line open, the trickle of Xtraps onto the network continues until today. Could there have been a better value-for-money deal made by asking for a bigger second order up-front? Maybe, maybe not. Anyone who actually knows more than that isn't likely to offer more detail on here.

Maybe Siemens would've been more interested if the upfront order was large - who knows. But those were the only bidders invited, because the requirement was to build more of an existing Melburnian EMU, not a new type.

All of the HCMT bidders are either keeping factories open or opening new ones in politically advantageous areas. EDI is proposing to build at Newport, Bombardier in Dandenong and Alstom in Ballarat. I'd arguably call that a level playing field.

What is wrong with the basic Comeng carbody but with proper airconditioning, better bogies, modern traction, braking and control equipment and 2 x 2 seating. The broad design, jigs, setup and some construction experience, at least, must still remain or have the beancounters burnt the design, scrapped the jigs and retrenched the experience?
YM-Mundrabilla
What is wrong with an Xtrap but with airbag suspension bogies and a fixed 6, 7 or 9 car consist instead of 3?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
One would have to wonder whether a better price could be obtained by a substantial order to whoever rather than the current drip feed arrangements with a builder who has (in reality or perception) a monopoly?
If memory serves me right, Siemens was a bidder for the first new Xtraps order contract as well. Alstom won the tender and because they still have the production line open, the trickle of Xtraps onto the network continues until today. Could there have been a better value-for-money deal made by asking for a bigger second order up-front? Maybe, maybe not. Anyone who actually knows more than that isn't likely to offer more detail on here.

Maybe Siemens would've been more interested if the upfront order was large - who knows. But those were the only bidders invited, because the requirement was to build more of an existing Melburnian EMU, not a new type.

All of the HCMT bidders are either keeping factories open or opening new ones in politically advantageous areas. EDI is proposing to build at Newport, Bombardier in Dandenong and Alstom in Ballarat. I'd arguably call that a level playing field.

What is wrong with the basic Comeng carbody but with proper airconditioning, better bogies, modern traction, braking and control equipment and 2 x 2 seating. The broad design, jigs, setup and some construction experience, at least, must still remain or have the beancounters burnt the design, scrapped the jigs and retrenched the experience?
What is wrong with an Xtrap but with airbag suspension bogies and a fixed 6, 7 or 9 car consist instead of 3?
LancedDendrite
Nothing, provided the ride is improved, they are modified (either physically or on paper) to enable system wide operation and they are built at a reasonable price in Victoria. A BIG ask overall the way we seem to operate in Victoria these days!

I know that it has been assessed that it is not worth upgrading the existing Comeng carbodies but one would think that if the jigs and tooling were still available that that would result in some cost saving advantage to Bombardier with a new build car to the same basic physical configuration.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
@YM-Mundrabilla wouldn't it make more sense to stick with a current design that has been proven successful, and is more modern than the design for the Comengs?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
@YM-Mundribilla wouldn't it make more sense to stick with a current design that has been proven successful, and is more modern than the design for the Comengs?
ElliotProvis
All I was thinking was the use of the stainless steel carbody which is Australian born. By all means fit it with Xtrap/Siemens/whoever up-to-date electricals etc. Maybe even airconditioning that works! I have no problem with the Xtrap except the ride on our rubbish tracks and the fact that it cannot/is not allowed to run systemwide.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I agree that more things that support Australian Industry are important as they contribute positively to the continued economic growth of Australia, however to me it seems as though the actual design of a stainless steel car body that is similar to the Comeng ones would be a bit outdated, and better design outcomes could be garnered from elsewhere. To develop a completely new design totally within Australia may be more challenging simply because the expertise required has since dried up/exported itself overseas and is no longer readily accessible here.

What would be good is if a collaboration between the those bidding, and local designers and manufacturers was established, and the business models were properly integrated into the industry so that they're bound to continue to manufacture from Australia for a few decades. Stipulating in the contract that the winning bidder must contribute in these and other ways, and develop training schools, or whatever, might be a really effective way of building capital in Australia.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I agree that more things that support Australian Industry are important as they contribute positively to the continued economic growth of Australia, however to me it seems as though the actual design of a stainless steel car body that is similar to the Comeng ones would be a bit outdated, and better design outcomes could be garnered from elsewhere. To develop a completely new design totally within Australia may be more challenging simply because the expertise required has since dried up/exported itself overseas and is no longer readily accessible here.

What would be good is if a collaboration between the those bidding, and local designers and manufacturers was established, and the business models were properly integrated into the industry so that they're bound to continue to manufacture from Australia for a few decades. Stipulating in the contract that the winning bidder must contribute in these and other ways, and develop training schools, or whatever, might be a really effective way of building capital in Australia.
ElliotProvis
'I agree that more things that support Australian Industry are important as they contribute positively to the continued economic growth of Australia, however to me it seems as though the actual design of a stainless steel car body that is similar to the Comeng ones would be a bit outdated, and better design outcomes could be garnered from elsewhere. To develop a completely new design totally within Australia may be more challenging simply because the expertise required has since dried up/exported itself overseas and is no longer readily accessible here.'

The only reason they buy overseas is it is often, initially, cheaper! I don't see a painted carbon steel carbody as necessarily a better design than a stainless steel body simply because it is newer. Stainless never needs painting and won't go rusty either.

There is still brilliant rolling stock design expertise in Australia albeit underutilised as our governments and rail operators are generally disloyal to Australia. Money isn't everything, money is the ONLY thing.

The people who designed the ground breaking 40 ton axleload FMG ore wagons and a heap of other state of the art rolling stock for instance are still around.

One of the troubles with Australia is the mentality among those who know no better is that anything from overseas is 'better than we could do'. What they really mean is that they know no better! Capital cost may well be cheaper initially but no one takes into account whole of life costs of buying something cheap. If they added the dole for those put out of work as a result of buying overseas the result may well be quite different.

'What would be good is if a collaboration between the those bidding, and local designers and manufacturers was established, and the business models were properly integrated into the industry so that they're bound to continue to manufacture from Australia for a few decades. Stipulating in the contract that the winning bidder must contribute in these and other ways, and develop training schools, or whatever, might be a really effective way of building capital in Australia.'

This reminds me of the railways prior to privatisation when they designed, built, maintained and trained apprentices too!
  Old dvr Beginner

@YM-Mundribilla wouldn't it make more sense to stick with a current design that has been proven successful, and is more modern than the design for the Comengs?
I have no problem with the Xtrap except the ride on our rubbish tracks and the fact that it cannot/is not allowed to run systemwide.
YM-Mundrabilla
Nothing wrong with the Extrap, apart from the rough riding that is.
Excellent acceleration and braking and the most reliable in the Metro fleet.

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