New rail hub for Wodonga as Victorian rail freight expansion gets $39m investment

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 18 Dec 2015 09:59
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Someone I work with from the UK says that getting the supermarkets on rail is a key to getting decent volumes - sounds like I need to educate him a little on the Australian context...!

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Great analysis @Trainplanner

Whats happening on the Coles front re rail?
james.au
Coles Is owned by Wesfarmers, who also own Bunnings, Liquorland, BiLo, Kmart, Target, Officeworks along with many Industrial companies.
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
Great analysis @Trainplanner

Whats happening on the Coles front re rail?
Coles Is owned by Wesfarmers, who also own Bunnings, Liquorland, BiLo, Kmart, Target, Officeworks along with many Industrial companies.
Nightfire

And are apparently being supplied quite happily by road via Linfox & Camron's even if a few DCs are located near train lines *cough*Lyndhurst*cough*
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
And Aurizon according to Sulla....
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

And are apparently being supplied quite happily by road via Linfox & Camron's even if a few DCs are located near train lines *cough*Lyndhurst*cough*
ARodH
There Is always the possibility that the likes of Linfox could have a greater Involvement In long haul rail, If not run their own trains.
But of course there needs to be DCs In the right locations that can be rail served.
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
Bunnings' new Victorian DC is within 100-200m of the Lyndhurst cement plant, which used to be rail-served. Their old Vic DC backed onto the Cranbourne line, though I don't believe that their DCs in other states are similarly situated. I also don't believe that they generate enough freight to generate a regular train. As when I visited their old DC, to me it appeared to be mainly used as a stockpile and only handled 10-20 40' container loads a day, mostly from the docks.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

@woodford - sounds like you're a cop running a sting when you've got an informant on the boards!

I reiterate, it would be the funding decision required by the state government that would be the hold up.  There are lots of demands on their Treasury and given that these projects in many cases become subsidies for freight operators, it takes a bit of time to get the ducks in the row.  It would happen faster if the market worked for infrastructure such that the beneficiaries paid for it...
"james.au"


The person concerned was a senior and well respected ways and works man, as usual with my reports all info coming from such people is treated as "in  confidence" to garruntee my information source's will not be harrased. The person concerned has in the past provided much accurate information for these pages. What people make of my information is there concern, I try as much as possible to be impartial.

woodford
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I fully support your approach @woodford - just amused by the use of the word informant is all!!
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Bunnings' new Victorian DC is within 100-200m of the Lyndhurst cement plant, which used to be rail-served. Their old Vic DC backed onto the Cranbourne line, though I don't believe that their DCs in other states are similarly situated. I also don't believe that they generate enough freight to generate a regular train. As when I visited their old DC, to me it appeared to be mainly used as a stockpile and only handled 10-20 40' container loads a day, mostly from the docks.
ARodH

Woolworths is also moving their DC into the same complex.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Bunnings' new Victorian DC is within 100-200m of the Lyndhurst cement plant, which used to be rail-served. Their old Vic DC backed onto the Cranbourne line, though I don't believe that their DCs in other states are similarly situated. I also don't believe that they generate enough freight to generate a regular train. As when I visited their old DC, to me it appeared to be mainly used as a stockpile and only handled 10-20 40' container loads a day, mostly from the docks.
ARodH

10-20 containers a day to and from the Port should be childs play for a rail operator with any operational experience.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
For port shuttles, thats fine, but for being part of the broader national network (and therefore giving rail a chance), Lyndhurst is likely to be at a significant disadvantage given it is on broad gauge.

I get the feeling that if Melbourne had a better working freight network on SG (particularly on the eastern side), that a lot of national potential for freight would be created.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

For port shuttles, thats fine, but for being part of the broader national network (and therefore giving rail a chance), Lyndhurst is likely to be at a significant disadvantage given it is on broad gauge.

I get the feeling that if Melbourne had a better working freight network on SG (particularly on the eastern side), that a lot of national potential for freight would be created.
james.au
One would suggest that the combination of the Metro tunnel and the Dandenong corridor grade separation would give the best opportunity to a dual gauge connection of the east to the west.   If only such a vision could overcome the short winded political cycle.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
One would suggest that the combination of the Metro tunnel and the Dandenong corridor grade separation would give the best opportunity to a dual gauge connection of the east to the west.   If only such a vision could overcome the short winded political cycle.
skitz

Agreed - the only thing that is of concern is taking freight through the Southern Cross/Flinders St station precincts.  That's going to have some impact.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
I certainly agree it would be desirable to have a dedicated freight rail link to Melbourne's east and there are a number of schmes to do this but all at very significant cost.
The former Department of Transport did a lot of modelling in association with Metro Trains about identifying potential train paths and what the configuration of the Port Shuttle trains should be in order to be accommodated on the network.   The main requirement was for these trains to have a power to weight ratio that would enable them to be able to maintain the schedule which would have a relatively low average speed to fit within the 10 minute frequency of Metro trains noting that as they are all stoppers the actual average speed required of the Port Shuttle is quite low.   There was the obvious requirement that the Shuttles have more than 1 unit for reliability and Push pull operation with both units in power using Locotrol and/or multi unit cabled wagons are options as they meet the Metro requirement and eliminate shunting at terminals.  Train consist is envisaged at about 20 wagons to accommodate 60 TEU equivalent.   There would be peak hour curfews but obviously compensated for with night time and interpeak slots.   So as an example two shuttle sets undertaking say 3 round trips per day provides you with 720 TEU slots and the operation might be such that 1 of the sets gets to do either a fourth round trip or the 2 sets get a single leg.  Either way its around 800 plus slots a day, which is significant even for a modest operation.

Even that number into/out of Lyndhurst makes a significant inroad into the volume of truck shuttles pounding up and down the Monash.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
@Trainplanner, what were the reasons for it not going ahead?  Only cost?
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Yes basically cost.  All the options require complete brand new trackage down freeway alignments and grade seperations everywhere so its not a greenfields environment.   The real catalyst at the time was around the future alternative port for Melbourne being planned for Hastings etc versus the current Government's position being locations on the western side.   There was around 70km of new railway construction plus connecting into the SG network around Craigiebourne.  So yes a very major project.

Port shuttles on BG are really the way to go in the immediate to medium term.   Of course the capacity of Lyndhurst is an issue but longer trains could be accommodated if the reciving track at Lyndhurst was extended and that can be done quite easily.   The limitation would be that these longer consists would have to run at night where the "high" performance fixed formation shuttles can operate for say 16 to 17 hours per day

Either way you could increase volumes quite substantially before having to move to a new railway and have to develop an entirely new terminal as well..
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
One would suggest that the combination of the Metro tunnel and the Dandenong corridor grade separation would give the best opportunity to a dual gauge connection of the east to the west.   If only such a vision could overcome the short winded political cycle.

Agreed - the only thing that is of concern is taking freight through the Southern Cross/Flinders St station precincts.  That's going to have some impact.
james.au
Why.
Freight has always operated through Flinders Street and in the close proximity to Spencer Street.
It's all in the (powerful/negative/know no better/'abominable no men') mind these days.
IF there was a will (and any worthwhile traffic) there will be a way.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

One would suggest that the combination of the Metro tunnel and the Dandenong corridor grade separation would give the best opportunity to a dual gauge connection of the east to the west.   If only such a vision could overcome the short winded political cycle.

Agreed - the only thing that is of concern is taking freight through the Southern Cross/Flinders St station precincts.  That's going to have some impact.
james.au
I was suggesting to go through the new tunnel.  The entrances are in the best places.  (and I am not concerned about running freight through the tunnel, fumes etc.   That's a minor issue I believe.)
  skitz Chief Commissioner

One would suggest that the combination of the Metro tunnel and the Dandenong corridor grade separation would give the best opportunity to a dual gauge connection of the east to the west.   If only such a vision could overcome the short winded political cycle.

Agreed - the only thing that is of concern is taking freight through the Southern Cross/Flinders St station precincts.  That's going to have some impact.
Why.
Freight has always operated through Flinders Street and in the close proximity to Spencer Street.
It's all in the (powerful/negative/know no better/'abominable no men') mind these days.
IF there was a will (and any worthwhile traffic) there will be a way.
YM-Mundrabilla

First two words - 'standard gauge'

Second more horrific set of words - 'dual gauge'.

Aim of going through the tunnel as dual gauge would be to minimise the amount of dual gauge interfaces.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Why.
Freight has always operated through Flinders Street and in the close proximity to Spencer Street.
It's all in the (powerful/negative/know no better/'abominable no men') mind these days.
IF there was a will (and any worthwhile traffic) there will be a way.
YM-Mundrabilla

Could not have said it better myself.  We are going backwards.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
One would suggest that the combination of the Metro tunnel and the Dandenong corridor grade separation would give the best opportunity to a dual gauge connection of the east to the west.   If only such a vision could overcome the short winded political cycle.

Agreed - the only thing that is of concern is taking freight through the Southern Cross/Flinders St station precincts.  That's going to have some impact.
Why.
Freight has always operated through Flinders Street and in the close proximity to Spencer Street.
It's all in the (powerful/negative/know no better/'abominable no men') mind these days.
IF there was a will (and any worthwhile traffic) there will be a way.

First two words - 'standard gauge'

Second more horrific set of words - 'dual gauge'.

Aim of going through the tunnel as dual gauge would be to minimise the amount of dual gauge interfaces.
skitz
I agree Skitz. The two most obscene phrases in Victorian rail are 'standard gauge' and 'dual gauge'.
What is the betting that the skybridge section and any other enhancement on the Dandenong Corridor is built with BG concrete sleepers? Same for the Metro tunnel.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
You wouldn't get any greater proponent than I that future proofing the Victorian network where it makes sense such as on existing freight corridors for gauge conversion and/or standard or dual gauge and that's already finally happening and I think it will extend to the Goulburn Valley.    Other than the Maryvale Paper trains the potential for a major ramp up in rail freight tonneages further east is just not there at this time so that's that corridor still on BG.   Going into Lyndhurst and Hastings, that's heavily tied to a future port in the south east and that's definitely been scaled back, so the question is would DG te existing routes generate sufficient new business to rail???   I don't think so.   You can get a lot of boxes on high performance broad gauge port shuttles and if any of that traffic is destined to other areas on the SG or vice verser the boxes can be transloaded.   Even a low volume port shuttle operation as I've described shifts almost a thousand boxes a day.  You can ramp that up that up as I say further at night with larger consists but it really doesn't equate to volumes so great that you can honestly justify the investment for DG the existing route.   The last costI say to do a container lift was around 70 to 90 dollars a box if you did have any boxes requirement transfer.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

On Google maps - satellite view, stacks of rail and old turnouts recovered from Wodonga yard can be seen on a hard stand area off Bilston Drive
Lockspike
And getting back on topic further to mine of 8/6, driving past today revealed a long narrow cleared area parrallel and alongside the rail corridor. Several excavators and a backhoe were to be seen, some apparently parked inside the rail corridor. A large steel building is under construction and stacks of rail have been moved to alongside the aforementioned cleared area.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Would someone up in that neck of the woods like to travel out to there and take a shot or two from the over pass, One gets a real good view of that area from there, the work area being aprox 700 metres west.. You do have to watch for traffic though so be care full.

woodford
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Thanks lockpike

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