T4 Extension

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Yes but these are existing line's on the surface, nit a Greenfield line at a cost of $200/km

Anyway I checked again and last time I didn't check Maroubra which is substantial compared to the 1000 to 3000 of most of the other suburbs down that way.

Based on thus you may extend one more stop at Maroubra which is about another 3km and would cost about $750m including the station.

Issue of course this competes against the LR and hence will never happen. Bondi Beach has more chance.
RTT_Rules

Actually it would compliment the light rail. If the heavy rail stopped at Maroubra junction the light rail or buses could fork off in many directions that would bring many passengers from different directions. The 400 bus for instance could be curtailed to Maroubra junction if the heavy rail met it there.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yes but these are existing line's on the surface, nit a Greenfield line at a cost of $200/km

Anyway I checked again and last time I didn't check Maroubra which is substantial compared to the 1000 to 3000 of most of the other suburbs down that way.

Based on thus you may extend one more stop at Maroubra which is about another 3km and would cost about $750m including the station.

Issue of course this competes against the LR and hence will never happen. Bondi Beach has more chance.

Actually it would compliment the light rail. If the heavy rail stopped at Maroubra junction the light rail or buses could fork off in many directions that would bring many passengers from different directions. The 400 bus for instance could be curtailed to Maroubra junction if the heavy rail met it there.
simstrain
Light rail down that way won't be a network, it will only be a trunk line

....and there is no way this side of the 2nd coming are we going to see a HR built down the green space of Anzac parade. No chance what so ever. How would cars cross the ROW? The noise and think of all the ridiculous pedestrian over passes, lifts etc etc. You can just see the high dollar court cases now.

LR can using this green space corridor get down as far as Phillip Bay/La Parouse with minimal impact on traffic and traffic having minimal impact on LR and no impact on the ability to use or cross ANZAC Parade by both pedestrian and traffic.

Hence I think HR would most likely no be viable beyond the Uni as the area won't justify both HR and LR. At least access to the uni, hospital, Race course as well as commuter traffic justifies an extension of HR with two additional stations south of BJ.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Yes but these are existing line's on the surface, nit a Greenfield line at a cost of $200/km

Anyway I checked again and last time I didn't check Maroubra which is substantial compared to the 1000 to 3000 of most of the other suburbs down that way.

Based on thus you may extend one more stop at Maroubra which is about another 3km and would cost about $750m including the station.

Issue of course this competes against the LR and hence will never happen. Bondi Beach has more chance.

Actually it would compliment the light rail. If the heavy rail stopped at Maroubra junction the light rail or buses could fork off in many directions that would bring many passengers from different directions. The 400 bus for instance could be curtailed to Maroubra junction if the heavy rail met it there.
Light rail down that way won't be a network, it will only be a trunk line

....and there is no way this side of the 2nd coming are we going to see a HR built down the green space of Anzac parade. No chance what so ever. How would cars cross the ROW? The noise and think of all the ridiculous pedestrian over passes, lifts etc etc. You can just see the high dollar court cases now.

LR can using this green space corridor get down as far as Phillip Bay/La Parouse with minimal impact on traffic and traffic having minimal impact on LR and no impact on the ability to use or cross ANZAC Parade by both pedestrian and traffic.

Hence I think HR would most likely no be viable beyond the Uni as the area won't justify both HR and LR. At least access to the uni, hospital, Race course as well as commuter traffic justifies an extension of HR with two additional stations south of BJ.
RTT_Rules

My suggestion is not to run HR along the green way along anzac parade but in a tunnel to maroubra junction where buses and light rail could converge.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

My suggestion is not to run HR along the green way along anzac parade but in a tunnel to maroubra junction where buses and light rail could converge.
simstrain
Sorry that was Djf01.

If there was to be no LR beyond the current plan, the HR extension (tunneled) to Maroubra Junction maybe justified, but you couldn't do both.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


My suggestion is not to run HR along the green way along anzac parade but in a tunnel to maroubra junction where buses and light rail could converge.Sorry that was Djf01.

If there was to be no LR beyond the current plan, the HR extension (tunneled) to Maroubra Junction maybe justified, but you couldn't do both.
RTT_Rules

That isn't true because a HR at maroubra junction can be fed by buses and the light rail. LR extending along la perouse would also feed the HR at maroubra junction. Then there is a major shopping centre at Eastgardens which also attracts a crowd.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

My suggestion is not to run HR along the green way along anzac parade but in a tunnel to maroubra junction where buses and light rail could converge.Sorry that was Djf01.

If there was to be no LR beyond the current plan, the HR extension (tunneled) to Maroubra Junction maybe justified, but you couldn't do both.
That isn't true because a HR at maroubra junction can be fed by buses and the light rail. LR extending along la perouse would also feed the HR at maroubra junction. Then there is a major shopping centre at Eastgardens which also attracts a crowd.
simstrain
This is not a satellite city, just a higher density suburb surrounded by low density suburbs. As I said you run HR down there you have lost your justification to spend $100m's just to get LR there and then we only justify doing this so we can run down to La Parouse.

We do not build rail infrastructure to run to shopping centres unless its on the way to somewhere else.

If you run only LR down there its unlikely extension beyond Long Bay jail would be viable, but for arguments sake lets just say it runs down to La Parouse or at least as far Phillip Bay where the wide median strip ends at Canara Ave intersection. Costs, ridership and practicalities will stop you going further.

Following Anzac Pde you have the bulk of the peninsula population with 1.5km corridor either side. The amount of feeder bus services would be very limited.

If you built HR to MJ, then you have a fleet of feeder buses running to the station a bit like BJ.
  tom9876543 Train Controller

Here is my idea for train line to Maroubra.
I think this is a very cost effective way to get heavy rail to Maroubra.
(I am too lazy to upload a map image to an internet hosting site.)

There is an existing freight rail line. It starts at Marrickville Station, goes past the airport, and ends at Port Botany.
Build a line heading directly east from where Swinbourne St meets the rail line. The land is undeveloped so it is relatively cheap to purchase it.
Follow the undeveloped land, the line goes through Grace Campbell Reserve and Rhodes St Reserve (probably already government owned land).
Then the line can proceed following Jersey Rd on the northern side. Make Jersey Rd a one way street and narrow it, to minimise the amount of park land that is taken by the rail line. This land would be all government owned.
Jersey Rd becomes Murray St.
Maroubra Station is built at the intersection of Murray St and Anzac Parade (currently has a Pizza Hut).
There should also be another new station built near the Airport (north of Joyce Dr on existing line).

In terms of land repossession, it looks like the government would only need to buy Pizza Hut + 5 houses + undeveloped industrial land. Relatively speaking, bugger all cost.
There only has to be 2 road bridges built - Dennison St and Bunnerong Rd. Other roads can be blocked off. Again, relatively speaking, a small cost.

As the new Maroubra Station is a greenfield site, it would be easy to sell it as a 99 year lease to a developer. The developer can build a 20 storey building with the train station at ground level. The cost of Maroubra Station and land repurchases could be completely covered by selling the development rights above the station.

The bus trip from Maroubra Junction to Town Hall is about 33 minutes.
To match this time, the train line will have only 5 stations - Maroubra, Airport, Marrackville, Central and Town Hall (and the route after that can be figured out be someone else).
I measured the distance on Google at 18km. At an average speed of 50km/h, it would take 22 minutes. I think each station stop adds 3min (please correct me if wrong). Total time about 31 minutes. That is an improvement over the bus.

So the total cost of this project would be only 2.8kms of dual rail line + junction + Marrackville Station upgrade + new Airport Station + 2 road bridges (assuming developer pays other costs).
Are there any ideas how much that would cost?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A couple of issues with this
- Puts suburban trains on a freight line
- The traffic flow by rail is away from an underused asset onto one that is getting full
- One station will not generate sufficient traffic to justify a frequent train service.

The proposal to MJ discussed above is more about if you going to extend to the uni, why not go an extra few km to a hub but whether it should be HR or LR or both.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Here is my idea for train line to Maroubra.
I think this is a very cost effective way to get heavy rail to Maroubra.
(I am too lazy to upload a map image to an internet hosting site.)

There is an existing freight rail line. It starts at Marrickville Station, goes past the airport, and ends at Port Botany.
Build a line heading directly east from where Swinbourne St meets the rail line. The land is undeveloped so it is relatively cheap to purchase it.
Follow the undeveloped land, the line goes through Grace Campbell Reserve and Rhodes St Reserve (probably already government owned land).
Then the line can proceed following Jersey Rd on the northern side. Make Jersey Rd a one way street and narrow it, to minimise the amount of park land that is taken by the rail line. This land would be all government owned.
Jersey Rd becomes Murray St.
Maroubra Station is built at the intersection of Murray St and Anzac Parade (currently has a Pizza Hut).
There should also be another new station built near the Airport (north of Joyce Dr on existing line).

In terms of land repossession, it looks like the government would only need to buy Pizza Hut + 5 houses + undeveloped industrial land. Relatively speaking, bugger all cost.
There only has to be 2 road bridges built - Dennison St and Bunnerong Rd. Other roads can be blocked off. Again, relatively speaking, a small cost.

As the new Maroubra Station is a greenfield site, it would be easy to sell it as a 99 year lease to a developer. The developer can build a 20 storey building with the train station at ground level. The cost of Maroubra Station and land repurchases could be completely covered by selling the development rights above the station.

The bus trip from Maroubra Junction to Town Hall is about 33 minutes.
To match this time, the train line will have only 5 stations - Maroubra, Airport, Marrackville, Central and Town Hall (and the route after that can be figured out be someone else).
I measured the distance on Google at 18km. At an average speed of 50km/h, it would take 22 minutes. I think each station stop adds 3min (please correct me if wrong). Total time about 31 minutes. That is an improvement over the bus.

So the total cost of this project would be only 2.8kms of dual rail line + junction + Marrackville Station upgrade + new Airport Station + 2 road bridges (assuming developer pays other costs).
Are there any ideas how much that would cost?
tom9876543

A few issues

1. As RRT mentions, That is a freight line and passenger services are never going to run on it. So separate tracks would be needed.
2. When I say Maroubra Junction. I mean Anzac Parade and Maroubra Road as most people who live in that area do.
3. There is no room for a heavy rail line along jersey/murray road. Destroying houses to build such a line is preposterous.
4. Along the grace Campbell reserve the trains would have to go underground to avoid level crossings and permanently ripping up parkland. I think you forgot Rhodes street which would also need a bridge by the way as it could not be blocked off.
5. Maroubra junction isn't a greenfield site. Where you are suggesting for a station is not Maroubra junction but just plain Maroubra.
6. In case you didn't know the Bankstown line is slated to become part of the Sydney metro, so Marrickville station isn't even possible.
7. In Sydney prices this will not be cheap. Certainly not as cheap as you think.
8. How do you plan to get trains from Marrickville to Central in your suggestion any way?
  tom9876543 Train Controller

Here is my idea for train line to Maroubra.
I think this is a very cost effective way to get heavy rail to Maroubra.
(I am too lazy to upload a map image to an internet hosting site.)

There is an existing freight rail line. It starts at Marrickville Station, goes past the airport, and ends at Port Botany.
Build a line heading directly east from where Swinbourne St meets the rail line. The land is undeveloped so it is relatively cheap to purchase it.
Follow the undeveloped land, the line goes through Grace Campbell Reserve and Rhodes St Reserve (probably already government owned land).
Then the line can proceed following Jersey Rd on the northern side. Make Jersey Rd a one way street and narrow it, to minimise the amount of park land that is taken by the rail line. This land would be all government owned.
Jersey Rd becomes Murray St.
Maroubra Station is built at the intersection of Murray St and Anzac Parade (currently has a Pizza Hut).
There should also be another new station built near the Airport (north of Joyce Dr on existing line).

In terms of land repossession, it looks like the government would only need to buy Pizza Hut + 5 houses + undeveloped industrial land. Relatively speaking, bugger all cost.
There only has to be 2 road bridges built - Dennison St and Bunnerong Rd. Other roads can be blocked off. Again, relatively speaking, a small cost.

As the new Maroubra Station is a greenfield site, it would be easy to sell it as a 99 year lease to a developer. The developer can build a 20 storey building with the train station at ground level. The cost of Maroubra Station and land repurchases could be completely covered by selling the development rights above the station.

The bus trip from Maroubra Junction to Town Hall is about 33 minutes.
To match this time, the train line will have only 5 stations - Maroubra, Airport, Marrackville, Central and Town Hall (and the route after that can be figured out be someone else).
I measured the distance on Google at 18km. At an average speed of 50km/h, it would take 22 minutes. I think each station stop adds 3min (please correct me if wrong). Total time about 31 minutes. That is an improvement over the bus.

So the total cost of this project would be only 2.8kms of dual rail line + junction + Marrackville Station upgrade + new Airport Station + 2 road bridges (assuming developer pays other costs).
Are there any ideas how much that would cost?

A few issues

1. As RRT mentions, That is a freight line and passenger services are never going to run on it. So separate tracks would be needed.
2. When I say Maroubra Junction. I mean Anzac Parade and Maroubra Road as most people who live in that area do.
3. There is no room for a heavy rail line along jersey/murray road. Destroying houses to build such a line is preposterous.
4. Along the grace Campbell reserve the trains would have to go underground to avoid level crossings and permanently ripping up parkland. I think you forgot Rhodes street which would also need a bridge by the way as it could not be blocked off.
5. Maroubra junction isn't a greenfield site. Where you are suggesting for a station is not Maroubra junction but just plain Maroubra.
6. In case you didn't know the Bankstown line is slated to become part of the Sydney metro, so Marrickville station isn't even possible.
7. In Sydney prices this will not be cheap. Certainly not as cheap as you think.
8. How do you plan to get trains from Marrickville to Central in your suggestion any way?
simstrain

1. Can you elaborate as to why suburban trains will "never" run on a freight line?
I know for a fact suburban and freight trains run on the same tracks to Newcastle.
What makes you so certain that suburban trains can't run on this freight line?
2. My proposed Maroubra Train Station was 1.3kms from Maroubra Junction. That is a bit too far for an easy walk.
I have looked at the map again, and realised the train line can head northwards from jersey rd, through the parkland, and the Maroubra Station is now located south of intersection of Fitzgerald Ave and Paine St. This is 940m from Maroubra Junction, an acceptable walking distance. Looking a google maps, the proposed line would result only in the relocation of 6 netball courts.
3. There is parkland north of Jersey Rd. That can easily be converted into a rail line. Destroying houses to build a rail line is not "preposterous", maybe you can explain what happened in Footscray Melb recently. I get the impression you must be smoking something not quite legal.
4. The plan is to permanently rip up the park land. Local residents will lose their park. They will get over it. Can you explain exactly why Rhodes St can't be blocked off? Again it seems you are smoking something.
5. My new plan has the Station built on what is now park land / netball courts.
6. I didn't think about the introduction of the Metro. It appears the new Marourbra line will have to be an extension of the Bankstown Metro line. From what I read on Wikipedia it seems there will be new tunnels built for the Bankstown Metro, it won't use the existing rail tracks north of Sydenham.
7. My new plan requires ZERO compulsory acquisition of houses.
8. The new Metro tunnels e.g. this will have to be an extension of the Bankstown Metro.

I think this is the cheapest way to effectively get heavy rail to Maroubra. Extending the line from Bondi Junction will cost a sh#tload and will never happen. This is a slightly more realistic option.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

1. Trains in Newcastle run on a main line and not a freight line. The freight line in question is now operated by ARTC and not Sydney trains and runs directly to and from Port Botany and Enfield and is a line purely for freight trains so that they don't mix with passenger trains. The whole purpose of the line is to move nothing but freight and putting passenger trains on that line will hinder freight movement in and out of Port Botany.

2-8. You don't understand why your idea is silly because you are from Melbourne. Ripping up parkland will make you really popular with the locals for starters. For the amount of people in the area buses do a good job. As I mentioned the main reason to extend the ESR train line to maroubra junction is to serve as a transport interchange. A train from Maroubra junction to Town hall via this route underground will only take about 20 minutes. South of Kingsford the population density falls off a cliff and my transport interchange could be just as viable at Eastgardens as it is at Maroubra Junction.

Your idea also says that the stopping pattern will be Maroubra, Airport, Marrickville and Central. That isn't even possible because this route would have the train line heading away from the city to get to Marrickville. How do you propose to turn the train around to head back towards Central.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Just rip up a park in the Sydney Eastern Suburbs, "the locals will get over it"

Good luck with that!
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
This is why I went on hiatus — for the sake of my sanity.

Even the light rail is ridiculous, because it's no faster and won't actually add much capacity. But it's sleek and slick and it'll buy votes in the sort-of-marginal seats of Randwick and Maroubra. In that sense, it's a lot like the urban-buying Liberal version of the country-buying Labor XPT.

Anyway.

What we actually need is a better bus network with more frequency, more legibility, more priority, and from this, more capacity. Why? Because what we should be aiming for is a network that gets people where they need to go, when they need to go as effectively as possible, not trying to hold a competition as to who can draw the most ridiculous lines on top of Google Maps.

I need a lie down. I will be back.

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